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10 Arrested in Student Brawl at Proviso East High School

It probably has, but it seems to me the first step is to change the socioeconomic state, not the behaviors. Money changes everything. Set up a system where people can get decent jobs and move up in life, and their views and habits change.

There will always be Beverly Hillbillies. But history in general shows that give people a stake in a society and they act differently.

I think it has to happen and be made to work on both issues. Like I said, the researcher on the news hour remarked on how there was still a disparity when correcting for parental economics and education
 
I think it has to happen and be made to work on both issues. Like I said, the researcher on the news hour rema

Well, I'm not going to disagree with that, except that the whole "culture" rhetoric is often used as a way of blaming blacks and thus made into a cudgel to prevent the kind of policies that will advance blacks, and poor people in general, economically. Let's face it, there isn't much zeal in the US for economic policies that give more power to working people. So it's easy to short-circuit them with accusations about welfare queens and cultures of entitlement. It's what happens.
 
"Credible evidence?" What is that exactly to you? If you are asking for me to continue to dig up stats for you to dismiss because you don't agree with them, or the picture they paint, then no, I am not going to let you define what is, or what isn't "credible" simply because you refuse to accept valid information.
Blogs I do not find credible. If you can find stories of police forces making their numbers rosier, then I will give it a serious look. My guess is this happens on lower levels of crime, but major crimes are harder to hide.
As for the North side of Chicago vs. the South side, and related crime stats, I would say that it has to do with income demographics, and social status of the people that afford to live there. Keep in mind that there are different stats of different crimes that may be more prevalent in the North side vs. the South side....
This is what I was getting at. There is reason why these types of violent acts happen in predominantly the South and West Sides. Going back to the 'Broken Windows Theory' when you are okay with small crimes that mentality leads to larger crimes happening like what you are seeing now. Until that mentality is broken, then crime will still persist.

As for me knowing what I am talking about, I already made you eat your assumption that I had no idea of what Chicago was, or how the make up of that city laid out...Now you want to insult me more by insinuating that I don't know what I am talking about? Screw that. Either you want to have a civilized conversation or you don't. Either way is fine with me, I can have that conversation, or just ignore your ignorant trollings.
You are misconstruing what I said in that last post. I did not mean to insult, though since you interpretted it that way, I apologize for it. After you said you were born in Berwyn I took your word for it.

On McCarthy, what about what I said or posted made you think that I was not in approval of the job he was doing?
Earlier comments you made it sound like the CPD were not taking adequate steps to fight gang violence in the city. In retrospect I misinterpretted what you said.

Racial Segregation of the City? What do you mean by that? Let me tell you what happens when liberals start in with that canard...In Baltimore, while O'Malley was Mayor, they wanted to get rid of the High Rise Section 8 cess pools and integrate those receiving housing assistance into better neighborhoods in the city, and even to nearby suburbs like Edgewood....It was a huge failure! All that happened is that they spread the crime out all over, and the values of these better off neighborhoods fell. Now they are mostly boarded up eye sores.
As you know Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in the United States. The city did something similar here when they tore down Cabrini Green and relocated those living there. It did not work as well as everyone was hoping, but it does not sound as bad as what happened in Baltimore.

I would rather the city look at zoning laws and other laws that help keep the status quo as it is. Over time, the hope would be that with less zoning the city would begin to diversify organically though that is a really long-term outlook.

And whether or not the South is in the lower income ratios in the nation, we also have a much lower cost of living...And beautiful friendly people, and landscapes. We aren't packed in like ants.
For a part of my life I lived in various cities in Wisconsin, a state which my Illinois friends call the most southern state in the North. I absolutely love the state. Though from time to time I miss living relatively close to a major city like Chicago.
 
Blogs I do not find credible. If you can find stories of police forces making their numbers rosier, then I will give it a serious look. My guess is this happens on lower levels of crime, but major crimes are harder to hide.


Well, I am looking. But I did find this interesting.....


So while your painting your own rosy picture about N. Chicago and trying to base it on wealth disparity, as if that excuses people murdering others, the simple fact is that even in the affluent sections of Chicago, crime is higher.

This is what I was getting at. There is reason why these types of violent acts happen in predominantly the South and West Sides. Going back to the 'Broken Windows Theory' when you are okay with small crimes that mentality leads to larger crimes happening like what you are seeing now. Until that mentality is broken, then crime will still persist.

I agree. But the thing is, that once out of control like Chicago is now, you have to get a handle on the major crime so that you have some breathing room. It may take more than progressive income redistribution theory, or public vs. private ed. It may actually take some good old fashioned cracking down.

You are misconstruing what I said in that last post. I did not mean to insult, though since you interpretted it that way, I apologize for it. After you said you were born in Berwyn I took your word for it.

Oh, I absolutely was born in Berwyn, IL....I didn't grow up there though....I was adopted by a family in MI, and grew up in Lansing. But, I did have many friends from Chicago, and have been there more than a few times.

Earlier comments you made it sound like the CPD were not taking adequate steps to fight gang violence in the city. In retrospect I misinterpretted what you said.

No worries....I don't think any police chief can solve that problem until the clean up the corruption in that city.

As you know Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in the United States. The city did something similar here when they tore down Cabrini Green and relocated those living there. It did not work as well as everyone was hoping, but it does not sound as bad as what happened in Baltimore.

I would rather the city look at zoning laws and other laws that help keep the status quo as it is. Over time, the hope would be that with less zoning the city would begin to diversify organically though that is a really long-term outlook.

The problem with that is that it never does "work out as well as liberals hoped".... Playing the constant victim doesn't leave room for personal choice, or responsibility.

For a part of my life I lived in various cities in Wisconsin, a state which my Illinois friends call the most southern state in the North. I absolutely love the state. Though from time to time I miss living relatively close to a major city like Chicago.

Beautiful country up there....MI, and WI, are similar states in terms of what they have to offer, and growing up both areas are really God's pallet....
 
*Yawn* Typical bull**** conservative argument.

233 posts, and we all know by this comment that you are not here in DP to debate anything....Thanks for proving it early on....Now we can just ignore your lunacy.
 
Interesting that they both have been under progressive/liberal leadership for ever. Coincidence? I think not.

When this is what you bring to the table, what is there to debate?

I mean, c'mon, you don't even have an argument here.

Just "Well, I think progressives/liberals are responsible. My reasoning? **** you, that's my reasoning."
 
When this is what you bring to the table, what is there to debate?

I mean, c'mon, you don't even have an argument here.

Just "Well, I think progressives/liberals are responsible. My reasoning? **** you, that's my reasoning."

I don't? Tell me, what have liberal/progressive stranglehold over these cities brought to the people there? Prosperity? Rule of law? Greater education? Greater understanding of those that don't buy into the progressive meme? No, none of that.

Tell me, why are houses in Detroit and Chicago's inner cities for sale for $1, and still not selling? When you see signs like those outside of Detroit, that basically say "Welcome to Detroit, enter at your own risk." What does that say to you?
 
I don't? Tell me, what have liberal/progressive stranglehold over these cities brought to the people there? Prosperity? Rule of law? Greater education? Greater understanding of those that don't buy into the progressive meme? No, none of that. Tell me, why are houses in Detroit and Chicago's inner cities for sale for $1, and still not selling? When you see signs like those outside of Detroit, that basically say "Welcome to Detroit, enter at your own risk." What does that say to you?

Now you're just going off on a tangent.

Do you know what evidence is? Do you know what a proper argument is? Let me clue you in, it's not just making statements without sources backing them up.

Lets not expand this net. Let's not ask stupid questions like "Why are houses in Detroit and Chicago inner cities for sale for $1, and still not selling." and then assume its because of Progressivism/Liberalism because, hey, I hate those two ideologies.

Lets try and stick to the topic you presented in the Op. Your own link:

Students leaving Proviso East High School on their last day of school May 31 were involved in a fight that carried into the streets of Maywood for several hours, police said.
At least 10 students were arrested, including a girl allegedly using two chef’s knives after being beaten down by other students, and the fight required more than 40 officers from neighboring agencies including Oak Park, Forest Park, Westchester, Bellwood and Broadview, Maywood Police Chief Tim Curry said.
At times the group was 300 strong, Curry said, with people gathering to watch the disturbance.
According to the Cook County Sheriff's Office and Maywood Police, the fights occurred across the street from the school and traveled west.
Proviso Township High Schools, however, said in a statement that the fights occurred nearly a mile from Proviso East High School near the intersection of Ninth Avenue and Madison Street.
The district also said that witness accounts show that other adults and former students joined in the disturbance.
"Our school year ended without any incident, and we are very pleased to report that," the district said in a statement. "However, situations do happen in the community that involve our students, and while we are always concerned, it is not something over which we have any jurisdiction nor control."
Three students were taken to Loyola Medical Center with minor injuries, including one girl who was struck over the eye with a lock, Curry said.
The fights were recorded on students’ cell phones and posted to YouTube and Facebook.
Maywood Police reportedly said the fight tied up police for hours and is still under investigation.

Source: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl Near Proviso East High School | NBC Chicago

Now, I want you to explain to me what specific progressive/liberal policies were responsible for the incident brought up in your Op.

I'm not asking a lot out of you. I'm asking you to do the research and come up with a well thought out argument.
 
Now you're just going off on a tangent.


Do you know what evidence is? Do you know what a proper argument is? Let me clue you in, it's not just making statements without sources backing them up.

Lets not expand this net. Let's not ask stupid questions like "Why are houses in Detroit and Chicago inner cities for sale for $1, and still not selling." and then assume its because of Progressivism/Liberalism because, hey, I hate those two ideologies.

Lets try and stick to the topic you presented in the Op. Your own link:



Source: 10 Arrested in Student Brawl Near Proviso East High School | NBC Chicago

Now, I want you to explain to me what specific progressive/liberal policies were responsible for the incident brought up in your Op.

I'm not asking a lot out of you. I'm asking you to do the research and come up with a well thought out argument.

Oooh ooh can I explain ??

Hmmm lets see...

Welfare laws that enable generational dependence AND single parent homes.

Political Correctness that stifles honest debate which leads to ZERO being done about the collapse of inner city schools, neighborhoods and cultures.

Attacks on the conventional Family unit and the empowerment of single mothers as a viable alternative to raising children effectively.

The legitimization of destructive counter culture sterotypes. That includes the whole " Hip Hop" culture, the gang culture, the mysoginistic music that promotes violence and irresponsible behaviour......hey Obama loves him some Jay-Z....lol what a fu** Country this has become.
 
Oooh ooh can I explain ??

Hmmm lets see...

Welfare laws that enable generational dependence AND single parent homes.

Political Correctness that stifles honest debate which leads to ZERO being done about the collapse of inner city schools, neighborhoods and cultures.

Attacks on the conventional Family unit and the empowerment of single mothers as a viable alternative to raising children effectively.

The legitimization of destructive counter culture sterotypes. That includes the whole " Hip Hop" culture, the gang culture, the mysoginistic music that promotes violence and irresponsible behaviour......hey Obama loves him some Jay-Z....lol what a fu** Country this has become.

Exactly, but Babilfish doesn't want an honest discussion, or look at progressive policies that lead to this degradation of society, instead trying wildly to control the parameters of what others are "allowed" to introduce into the discussion. This is what progressives do, is always try to control the narrative, and language thereby allowing them to dismiss anything that, although true, doesn't fit their "acceptable" yet false narratives.
 
I can't believe this silly topic is still being "debated". This is why conservatives are not scientists, because they are BAD at it. You have to prove things with evidence. You have to use solid reasoning and logic, follow strict rules, etc. You can't just make **** up and say "I believe this, I believe that" because it COULD be true.

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. The question you're asking, whether or not liberalism is the cause of downfall of Chicago, Detroit, etc. is a really big, complex question. To discover whether it is true, with much accuracy or confidence, would take a massive study, involving thousands of variables, arguments. Pages and pages of critical though, analysis, etc.

Throwing around a couple dumb ass assertions "destruction of the family unit", "welfare did it", is nothing more than a guess you pulled out of your ass because you want to believe it, it means nothing.

Why not look at cities like Portland, San Francisco, Seattle, the Scandinavian countries? Those areas are heavily influenced by liberal/progressive views, and they are unequivocal successes. Are they just outliers?
 
I don't? Tell me, what have liberal/progressive stranglehold over these cities brought to the people there? Prosperity? Rule of law? Greater education? Greater understanding of those that don't buy into the progressive meme? No, none of that.

Tell me, why are houses in Detroit and Chicago's inner cities for sale for $1, and still not selling? When you see signs like those outside of Detroit, that basically say "Welcome to Detroit, enter at your own risk." What does that say to you?

So if San Diego was run by Republicans for years, and if it went bankrupt (it did) it proves that conservatism leads cities to bankruptcy. Gotcha.

Of course, your "argument" is even more ridiculous because one of the reasons Democrats get elected in big cities (they tend to) is because big cities have big problems, like crime, and people rightfully don't trust Republicans to solve those problems. So your "argument" is analogous to saying that doctors must cause heart attacks because a lot of people with heart attacks are treated by doctors.

Total and complete tea party lunacy.
 
So if San Diego was run by Republicans for years, and if it went bankrupt (it did) it proves that conservatism leads cities to bankruptcy. Gotcha.
San Diego - the "Detroit" of Southern California. :roll:

Riiigghhhtt....
 
233 posts, and we all know by this comment that you are not here in DP to debate anything....Thanks for proving it early on....Now we can just ignore your lunacy.

Is that kinda like you refusing to actually back up youre comments from the OP? Your inability to explain why similar incidents occur is geographically, culturally and politically diverse areas of the country but in this case it must be because of liberals? Or how you ran away when challenged on it?
 
Is that kinda like you refusing to actually back up youre comments from the OP? Your inability to explain why similar incidents occur is geographically, culturally and politically diverse areas of the country but in this case it must be because of liberals? Or how you ran away when challenged on it?

Still lying about others, as you yourself break the rules eh?....Keep it up missy.....;)
 
Oooh ooh can I explain ??

Feel free.

Hmmm lets see...

Waiting...

Welfare laws that enable generational dependence AND single parent homes.

Welfare creates dependancy?

This is conjecture, without some kind of study or evidence to support this assertion.

Political Correctness that stifles honest debate which leads to ZERO being done about the collapse of inner city schools, neighborhoods and cultures.

...You're right, inner city schools don't ever discuss how poorly they're making out. They won't even acknowledge the problem, what do they expect when they're being so PC!?

This is conjecture, again. You've not provided evidence of anything.

Attacks on the conventional Family unit and the empowerment of single mothers as a viable alternative to raising children effectively.

This one's an old conservative standard, though it too is usually a lacking argument.

Luckily for you, people at least actually research and study the trend towards single motherhood, either in support or denouncement. It should be easy for you to find relevant links to studies citing the disadvantages single motherhood imparts on children and inner city families.

In short, you need more evidence and less opinion.

The legitimization of destructive counter culture sterotypes. That includes the whole " Hip Hop" culture, the gang culture, the mysoginistic music that promotes violence and irresponsible behaviour......hey Obama loves him some Jay-Z....lol what a fu** Country this has become.

Your talking points belong in the late 80s and early 90s. Ascribing to hip hop culture isn't the same as ascribing to gang culture, particularly as the mainstream music genre has moved away from the Gangsta Rap trend of those eras.

Though I agree that misogyny in hip hop music is a problem, it still isn't the issue we're discussing.

You've yet to actually cite or reference any specific policies (as I asked for) that display a connection between progressive/liberalism in these cities and the brawl at Proviso East high school. I'd wait, but I'm starting to realize you don't have any, you like J-Mac have a lot of ranting and grievances that doesn't actually connect to the incident presented in the opening post.

Ciao.
 
Still lying about others, as you yourself break the rules eh?....Keep it up missy.....;)

Still doing everything you can to not defend your claims I see.
 
I can't believe this silly topic is still being
"debated". This is why conservatives are not scientists, because they are BAD at it. You have to prove things with evidence. You have to use solid reasoning and logic, follow strict rules, etc. You can't just make **** up and say "I believe this, I believe that" because it COULD be true.

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. The question you're asking, whether or not liberalism is the cause of downfall of Chicago, Detroit, etc. is a really big, complex question. To discover whether it is true, with much accuracy or confidence, would take a massive study, involving thousands of variables, arguments. Pages and pages of critical though, analysis, etc.

Throwing around a couple dumb ass assertions "destruction of the family unit", "welfare did it", is nothing more than a guess you pulled out of your ass because you want to believe it, it means nothing.

Why not look at cities like Portland, San Francisco, Seattle, the Scandinavian countries? Those areas are heavily influenced by liberal/progressive views, and they are unequivocal successes. Are they just outliers?

*Gasp*...how " scientific of you. You quoted studies, posted links, offered up objective evidence to support your assertion....

No, no you didn't. You hypocritically criticized Conservatives for their opinions and than made a few of your own.

Your a Lib, so I wouldn't expect you to have the intelectual capacity or integrity to see the obvious and post the truth.
 
Feel free.




Waiting...



Welfare creates dependancy?

This is conjecture, without some kind of study or evidence to support this assertion.



...You're right, inner city schools don't ever discuss how poorly they're making out. They won't even acknowledge the problem, what do they expect when they're being so PC!?

This is conjecture, again. You've not provided evidence of anything.



This one's an old conservative standard, though it too is usually a lacking argument.

Luckily for you, people at least actually research and study the trend towards single motherhood, either in support or denouncement. It should be easy for you to find relevant links to studies citing the disadvantages single motherhood imparts on children and inner city families.

In short, you need more evidence and less opinion.



Your talking points belong in the late 80s and early 90s. Ascribing to hip hop culture isn't the same as ascribing to gang culture, particularly as the mainstream music genre has moved away from the Gangsta Rap trend of those eras.

Though I agree that misogyny in hip hop music is a problem, it still isn't the issue we're discussing.

You've yet to actually cite or reference any specific policies (as I asked for) that display a connection between progressive/liberalism in these cities and the brawl at Proviso East high school. I'd wait, but I'm starting to realize you don't have any, you like J-Mac have a lot of ranting and grievances that doesn't actually connect to the incident presented in the opening post.

Ciao.

LOL !!


How hypocritical of you.

You countered my " conjecture" with your opinion.
 
*Gasp*...how " scientific of you. You quoted studies, posted links, offered up objective evidence to support your assertion....

No, no you didn't. You hypocritically criticized Conservatives for their opinions and than made a few of your own.

Your a Lib, so I wouldn't expect you to have the intelectual capacity or integrity to see the obvious and post the truth.

You're a "Con" so you have the intellectual capacity of a drunk tank regular. You really think I'm going to spend all day researching this topic, gathering information, creating documents, creating a presentation... all so that I can bestow it upon the best minds of the DP forum? LoL. The fact that you think I should actually refute this with my own argument shows that you still don't get it. Its way too big a leap. You can't prove something like that on a whim.

All I did was point out how utterly silly your "so sure" rantings about liberalism destroying Chicago was.
 
You're a "Con" so you have the intellectual capacity of a drunk tank regular. You really think I'm going to spend all day researching this topic, gathering information, creating documents, creating a presentation... all so that I can bestow it upon the best minds of the DP forum? LoL. The fact that you think I should actually refute this with my own argument shows that you still don't get it. Its way too big a leap. You can't prove something like that on a whim.

All I did was point out how utterly silly your "so sure" rantings about liberalism destroying Chicago was.


Oh really ? I promise I'm levels above you intellectually and if you want to stop acting like the typical liberal coward and debate ANYTHING with me, I'll prove it to everyone here.

But I'm sure you have just a huge list of ideological accomplishments you can credit to your corrupted ideology.

A corrupt and incompetent President and administration, a long list of lying Democrats and Cabinet officials and appointed criminals like Eric Holder, Hillary Clinton, Franklin Raines, Harry Reid, Sandy Berger, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, ...........hell the list is endless.

You guys actually voted a media creation into office, not a leader, who was not vetted in the least, and who has blown through 6 trillion in new debt, and has little to no net new jobs after nearly 5 years and has his FED appointee currently pumping trillions into our financial markets for the purpose of giving the "impression" of a recovery.

When in fact 10's of millions of Americans have been added to the food stamp roles, poverty has climbed to 1 in 6, and 1 in 5 among American children, Americans on disability have doubled under your LIBERAL President and the Middle Class has shrunk to record low levels.

So please explain, why you should be considered anything more than the millions of faceless idiots that voted twice for a empty suite, a President who plays dumb in the face of multiple scandals.

Americans have been introduced under Liberalism to a new reality called " chronic joblessness" as States, " Liberal Blue Plague States " are toying with the notion of bankruptcy.

Detroit, another city destroyed by your corrupt ideology just announced it wouldn't be paying it's creditors...

I'll wait to hear your ridiculous list of " accomplishment" that you can chalk up to your political lean.....

I'm sure it will be hillarious.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Verax and Fenton. Both of you stop the personal attacks or there will be further consequences.
 
Oh really ? I promise I'm levels above you intellectually and if you want to stop acting like the typical liberal coward and debate ANYTHING with me, I'll prove it to everyone here.

But I'm sure you have just a huge list of ideological accomplishments you can credit to your corrupted ideology.

There's your first problem, you're an ideological purist. Ideologies are ideas, guides, tools to use to look at an issue through a certain perspective. If you only see things from one point of view you end up with a very limited understanding.

A corrupt and incompetent President and administration, a long list of lying Democrats and Cabinet officials and appointed criminals like Eric Holder, Hillary Clinton, Franklin Raines, Harry Reid, Sandy Berger, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, ...........hell the list is endless.
I can't take you seriously when you talk like this. This hyperbole of Obama being the worst ever, incompetent, corrupt... that's going way too far. Yes they spun Benghazi because it was an election issue, shame on them. Was this spinning the worst thing ever though? Did it kill anyone? There's no evidence they did anything other than spin it, so just STFU with your expected "HE KILLED 4 PROUD AMERICANS" response.

I'm going to keep this brief but Bill Clinton and Barney Frank are far from evil. Barney got caught up in the financial crisis and its unclear whether he's a SOB or was guilty by association. From what I've seen of him he tries to do the right thing whenever he can so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Bill just can't keep his pants on, other than that he's a standup guy and has done a tremendous amount of work trying to improve the U.S. and the world as a whole.

When you call all these people the worst ever it just makes you look bad.

EDIT: Wanted to add, I think Chris Dodd is a criminal, horrible, corrupt POS.

You guys actually voted a media creation into office, not a leader, who was not vetted in the least, and who has blown through 6 trillion in new debt, and has little to no net new jobs after nearly 5 years and has his FED appointee currently pumping trillions into our financial markets for the purpose of giving the "impression" of a recovery.

When in fact 10's of millions of Americans have been added to the food stamp roles, poverty has climbed to 1 in 6, and 1 in 5 among American children, Americans on disability have doubled under your LIBERAL President and the Middle Class has shrunk to record low levels.

So please explain, why you should be considered anything more than the millions of faceless idiots that voted twice for a empty suite, a President who plays dumb in the face of multiple scandals.

Americans have been introduced under Liberalism to a new reality called " chronic joblessness" as States, " Liberal Blue Plague States " are toying with the notion of bankruptcy.

Detroit, another city destroyed by your corrupt ideology just announced it wouldn't be paying it's creditors...

I'll wait to hear your ridiculous list of " accomplishment" that you can chalk up to your political lean.....

I'm sure it will be hillarious.

This is just one big block of insults, name calling and right-wing propaganda. The point I think you're trying to make is that the economy is bad and its all because of liberalism. This is a really long, sad, and pointless argument that I've gone through a million times and I really hate to get into it again, but I'll point out a few fairly obvious things for you to think about.

If you want to criticize Obama for his failure to right a catastrophe I'm right with you, he hasn't done enough. However if you look at where the economy was when he took office, it was a complete disaster. So going by your own logic that whoever is in office when the economy goes bad... 8 years of Bush ended in financial collapse. So by your own thinking I guess that means conservatism ALSO is destroying the country? I don't believe either, that Bush did it or that Obama is some kind of omnipotent power that can change everything. The crash was 30+ years in the making and all the presidents in that time played a part in it.

Now if you want to talk about what Obama has done, or hasn't... he's been neutered by the GOP, he didn't put up enough of a fight, maybe he wanted to roll over and play dead, I don't know. Financial reform was reduced to a few joke bills that have been further restricted to even less and will do almost nothing, a shadow of what should have been done. The financial industry is still a rampaging beast that is sucking us dry with absolutely no risk to themselves. After a wimpy 700B stimulus that was mostly just a band-aid, welfare relief to placate the masses and smooth over the depression, we fell back into austerity instead of Keynesian action.

Obama has governed like an old school center-right Republican which is kind of funny that you blame all this on liberalism which he hasn't done much of.

You may want to scale back your infatuation with Obama, he's just one talking head, the real power lies with many outside of Washington. Take a look at those that are doing really, really well in this recession. They're the ones that write the financial rules and they also have all the money, hint hint, wink wink.
 
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