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Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Most of us know the facts. There is really little new on this. Once that is done, it is about our opinions on what we know.

No one can ever know ALL the facts.

And why would I care much what a bunch of faceless people online think about a subject?

Especially if they go on and on and on with their baseless opinions...and steadfastly refuse to consider the possibility that maybe they are incorrect.

Debating on and on about something - while learning NOTHING new about it - maybe your idea of fun.

It sounds like a COMPLETE waste of time to me.

Throw in the fact that many on here quickly get WAY too emotional/angry (I am not referring to you)...and then it gets wasteful AND annoying.

Pass.


Have a nice day.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

No one can ever know ALL the facts.

And why would I care much what a bunch of faceless people online think about a subject?

Especially if they go on and on and on with their baseless opinions...and steadfastly refuse to consider the possibility that maybe they are incorrect.

Debating on and on about something - while learning NOTHING new about it - maybe your idea of fun.

It sounds like a COMPLETE waste of time to me.

Throw in the fact that many on here quickly get WAY too emotional/angry (I am not referring to you)...and then it gets wasteful AND annoying.

Pass.


Have a nice day.

You have to have new facts. Repeating what we all know, or a familiar spin on hem isn't all that helpful.

But yes, some do get too emotional.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

You have to have new facts. Repeating what we all know, or a familiar spin on hem isn't all that helpful.

But yes, some do get too emotional.

Some?

I would say most or a very large minority.

If someone remains civil - as you seem to be so far - this greatly increases my 'tolerance' (for lack of a better word) for exchanging personal opinions as maybe something will be learned along the way. But even that has a limit. Once both positions are clearly stated, I see little point in continuing.

But people that are clearly just on here to vent or troll are complete wastes of time to me.

I used to debate these people until I realized how pointless it is.

Now they usually just go on my ignore lists...life is WAY too short.

And they seem SO easy to spot now...they are the ones whose lives are probably empty/unhappy and they come on here to try and vent and take out their frustrations on others...while safely tucked behind their computer/tablet/smartphone screens.

Pathetic.
 
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Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

It's decision time for Americans, or at least soon will be. They have to decide whether or not their NSA is going to be allowed to do what is necessary to protect them and their country when they have earned so many enemies in foreign lands through wars of aggression.

Or

They decide it's just a better idea to stop the wars of aggression?

Didn't Ron Paul make that crystal clear? If that near senile old man ever did say anything sensible it was that!

Oh, and there is a third choice! Take your chances.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Some?

I would say most or a very large minority.

If someone remains civil - as you seem to be so far - this greatly increases my 'tolerance' for exchanging personal opinions as maybe something will be learned along the way. But even that has a limit. Once both positions are clearly stated, I see little point in continuing.

But people that are clearly just on here to vent or troll are complete wastes of time to me.

I used to debate these people until I realized how pointless it is.

Now they usually just go on my ignore lists...life is WAY too short.

I actually understand and accept that. For some you either can some fun with them or ignore them. Not much else to choose from.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Some?

I would say most or a very large minority.

If someone remains civil - as you seem to be so far - this greatly increases my 'tolerance' (for lack of a better word) for exchanging personal opinions as maybe something will be learned along the way. But even that has a limit. Once both positions are clearly stated, I see little point in continuing.

But people that are clearly just on here to vent or troll are complete wastes of time to me.

I used to debate these people until I realized how pointless it is.

Now they usually just go on my ignore lists...life is WAY too short.

And they seem SO easy to spot now...they are the ones whose lives are probably empty/unhappy and they come on here to try and vent and take out their frustrations on others...while safely tucked behind their computer/tablet/smartphone screens.

Pathetic.

Some people are always quick to throw in the 'trolling' charge when uncomfortable truths are put to them. And on many forums it works too! I think the best thing to do is to put the uncomfortable truths forward early on and find out whether the forum moderators are going to come to those people's rescue. I like to get that decided in my first day.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Some people are always quick to throw in the 'trolling' charge when uncomfortable truths are put to them. And on many forums it works too! I think the best thing to do is to put the uncomfortable truths forward early on and find out whether the forum moderators are going to come to those people's rescue. I like to get that decided in my first day.

I don't want the moderators to 'rescue' me or anyone else...I would rather they let people say ANYTHING they want.

Free speech above all else.

But I have yet to find a board that allows that.


That makes it doubly frustrating - that I cannot tell trolls/jerks what I really think of them (unless they go to the 'Dungeon' - but most jerks/trolls never seem to have the 'guts' to go there...and I have invited several).

As soon as I do...the mods step in.

So why bother?


And IMO, there is NO such thing as an 'uncomfortable truth'.

I will take a little humility to learn the truth ANY DAY.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I don't want the moderators to 'rescue' me or anyone else...I would rather they let people say ANYTHING they want.

Free speech above all else.

But I have yet to find a board that allows that.


That makes it doubly frustrating - that I cannot tell trolls/jerks what I really think of them (unless they go to the 'Dungeon' - but most jerks/trolls never seem to have the 'guts' to go there...and I have invited several).

As soon as I do...the mods step in.

So why bother?


And IMO, there is NO such thing as an 'uncomfortable truth'.

I will take a little humility to learn the truth ANY DAY.

If there's any way that I can invite your derision toward me then let me know. I will say, you can send me a p.m. and say anything you want to say and I'll not report you. Quote this if you like. I still contend though that the old charge of 'troll' is just an empassioned scream to the moderators for help when one is unable to carry on the conversation in an acceptable manner.

But also, to your charges specifically: I do come on here to vent and take out my frustrations. I think that everybody is doing the same and that's the only real useful purpose to these sort of forums. I very worthwhile purpose in my opinion because it probably reaches more politically involved people than that which is the MSM.

So fill your boots now and get it off your chest if you must. then maybe we can get down to serious business.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

If there's any way that I can invite your derision toward me then let me know. I will say, you can send me a p.m. and say anything you want to say and I'll not report you. Quote this if you like. I still contend though that the old charge of 'troll' is just an empassioned scream to the moderators for help when one is unable to carry on the conversation in an acceptable manner.

But also, to your charges specifically: I do come on here to vent and take out my frustrations. I think that everybody is doing the same and that's the only real useful purpose to these sort of forums. I very worthwhile purpose in my opinion because it probably reaches more politically involved people than that which is the MSM.

So fill your boots now and get it off your chest if you must. then maybe we can get down to serious business.

Two posts and he put me on the ignore list... which is totally fine.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

If there's any way that I can invite your derision toward me then let me know. I will say, you can send me a p.m. and say anything you want to say and I'll not report you. Quote this if you like. I still contend though that the old charge of 'troll' is just an empassioned scream to the moderators for help when one is unable to carry on the conversation in an acceptable manner.

But also, to your charges specifically: I do come on here to vent and take out my frustrations. I think that everybody is doing the same and that's the only real useful purpose to these sort of forums. I very worthwhile purpose in my opinion because it probably reaches more politically involved people than that which is the MSM.

So fill your boots now and get it off your chest if you must. then maybe we can get down to serious business.

Okaaaaay.....welcome to my ignore list.

Oh...welcome to the board.


Have a nice day.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Okaaaaay.....welcome to my ignore list.


Have a nice day.

LMAO... I wonder how long it will take until he's sitting in a corner all by himself?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Okaaaaay.....welcome to my ignore list.

Oh...welcome to the board.


Have a nice day.

If you're sure that's what you need to do then that's fine with me. I usually consider that kind of running away as 'mission accomplished'!

Really, I'm only here to put forward the uncomfortable truths to my political foes and have them step up to the plate and defend their ideology. If you can't do that then fine.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

LMAO... I wonder how long it will take until he's sitting in a corner all by himself?

Who me? I find that highly unlikely friend. My biggest concern is getting through the first day here by staying civil and within the oconfines of the forum's rules. Which surely must take a dim view of your and DA's off topic behaviour. And for that reason I'm out unless we get back on topic.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

an old NYTimes article

LOL!

june 6?

that has been edited

it sure was

LOL!

N.Y. Times changes scathing editorial - POLITICO.com

edited by whom?

and why?

"lost all credibility on this issue"

isn't that the issue we're talking about?

cuz, he didn't lose just some credibility...

laments the lady

the absurdity you're peddling

LOL!

the absurdity who's peddling?

in all the anti-Obama circles he never had credibility

the nyt is anti obama and circular?

bottom line:

"the nsa has long justified its spying powers by arguing that its charter allows surveillance on those outside of the united states, while avoiding intrusions into the private communications of american citizens, but the latest revelation of the extent of the nsa’s surveillance shows that it has focused specifically on americans, to the degree that its data collection has in at least one major spying incident explicitly excluded those outside the us"

"aside from the sheer scope of that surveillance order, the order specifically states that only data regarding calls originating in america are to be handed over, not those between foreigners"

"the nsa's spying goes beyond foreigners to include americans, despite its charter specifically disallowing surveillance of those within the us"

"the nsa’s charter states that it focuses on interception and analysis of foreign communications, not those within the united states"

"in a congressional hearing in march of last year, the nsa’s director keith alexander responded to questions from georgia congressman hank johnson, who brought up allegations of the nsa’s domestic spying made in a wired magazine article earlier that month, denying fourteen times that the nsa intercepted americans’ communications"

alexander: "we're not authorized to do it, nor do we do it"

the (ugh) guardian above

stay tuned
 
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Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

If you're sure that's what you need to do then that's fine with me. I usually consider that kind of running away as 'mission accomplished'!

Really, I'm only here to put forward the uncomfortable truths to my political foes and have them step up to the plate and defend their ideology. If you can't do that then fine.

Lol...'mission accomplished'...'political foes'...'defend their ideology'...yup, spot 'em a mile away.


I am on here to learn, teach and kill a little time.

You seem to be on here to play video games with words.

Enjoy your venting...may it bring you what you need (notice I said 'need', not 'want').


Have a very nice day.
 
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Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Who me? I find that highly unlikely friend. My biggest concern is getting through the first day here by staying civil and within the oconfines of the forum's rules. Which surely must take a dim view of your and DA's off topic behaviour. And for that reason I'm out unless we get back on topic.

NO, the cranky boy who puts everyone on ignore who refuses to play by his expectations.

Don't call me friend, pal...

kidding
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

NO, the cranky boy who puts everyone on ignore who refuses to play by his expectations.

Don't call me friend, pal...

kidding

Thanks, and sorry for the misunderstanding. Pal.
And the other? LOL
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I actually understand and accept that. For some you either can some fun with them or ignore them. Not much else to choose from.

Unfortunately, I think you are right.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

He didn't get the chance, the republicans forced it to be stripped from the bill before it passed. But he wanted it, why do you suppose that is?

Nothing that I have read--nor googled--has eluded one iota to what you are stating as fact. Yes, I know Clinton (like all Presidents have done since) had increased the wiretapping program, but it was under Bush where wiretapping became possible without a warrant. In fact, even before the Patriot Act became law, the Bush Administration had illegally wiretapped in about 30 instances.

I just watched Hoover, and even in the 50s, 60s and 70s, wiretapping was something that the government and government agencies practised. With passing time, techniques grew and became more sophisticated. But doing so without a warrant is a whole other can of worms, don't you think? It pretty much gives the government carte blanche on who they can spy on. Do you not think that this can lead to abuse?

My point is, it's not a party issue. It's not a "who's in power now" issue. The Patriot Act opened the door... Biden wrote the first draft of the Patriot Act... initially including warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detentions, etc.

It should not be a party issue, yet the rabid Obama haters are out in full force here at DP ready to impeach Obama for this 'scandal.' Even you, a member who claims to be impartial, has no issues with dropping Biden' and Clinton's names, attempting to tie them into the warrantless stuff without providing any links. Are you prepared to unequivocally stand behind your statements in post #625? Say if you were a respected journalist, would you--based-on your knowledge--state that from the get-go, Biden and Clinton stood behind warrantless wiretapping? My guess is no.

Funny, I have been trying to put some perspective on this, yet I'm the one being called out for being partisan. ****ing hilarious, if you ask me. I just want the real facts laid out for people to form their opinions.

It was never my intention to "prove" that Clinton performed such acts. Merely to point out the boundless myopia on both sides of this issue.

So you say.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Nothing that I have read--nor googled--has eluded one iota to what you are stating as fact.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-constitution/163672-real-history-domestic-spying.html

Here you will find links citing sources and the bill itself.

Yes, I know Clinton (like all Presidents have done since) had increased the wiretapping program, but it was under Bush where wiretapping became possible without a warrant. In fact, even before the Patriot Act became law, the Bush Administration had illegally wiretapped in about 30 instances.

You're missing the point. Biden wrote the first draft which included warrantless wiretapping. That draft became the Patriot Act with some minur reworking. My point is, this is not a partisan issue, not that Bush didn't open the door.

I just watched Hoover, and even in the 50s, 60s and 70s, wiretapping was something that the government and government agencies practised. With passing time, techniques grew and became more sophisticated. But doing so without a warrant is a whole other can of worms, don't you think? It pretty much gives the government carte blanche on who they can spy on. Do you not think that this can lead to abuse?

Of course, and I've been warning of this since CLINTON

It should not be a party issue, yet the rabid Obama haters are out in full force here at DP ready to impeach Obama for this 'scandal.'

So he shouldn't be impeached because Bush wasn't? At what point do we begin holding our elected public servants accountable to send a message to future administrations?

Even you, a member who claims to be impartial, has no issues with dropping Biden' and Clinton's names, attempting to tie them into the warrantless stuff without providing any links. Are you prepared to unequivocally stand behind your statements in post #625? Say if you were a respected journalist, would you--based-on your knowledge--state that from the get-go, Biden and Clinton stood behind warrantless wiretapping? My guess is no.

I've started a thread on the matter chock full of links, and I absolutely stand by my research.

Funny, I have been trying to put some perspective on this, yet I'm the one being called out for being partisan. ****ing hilarious, if you ask me. I just want the real facts laid out for people to form their opinions.

Follow the link... but the history plays no role in what should be done now. Do we send that message to the future, or do we just bicker the point until it passes, leaving the path to tyranny clear.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The first ever Federal case about wiretapping was Olmstead, with Brandeis dissenting.
 
But there were warrants issued legally do you agree...secret or otherwise? Therefore, you can't say that the NSA broke the law just because the public wasn't aware that the surveillence program was in affect. This is different from the WARRANTLESS wiretaps of Nixon or the WARRANTLESS cellphone surveillences of GWB.

No, I dont agree. The govt cant just get a warrant from the govt to do whatever it wants. And it surely cant do it secretly.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily


And why is it that I have to wade though pages and pages of stuff, when you are the one making the claim? I went though a few pages and found zilch on either Biden or Clinton pushing for warrantless wiretapping. Please give me a direct link or I won't believe the claim.


You're missing the point. Biden wrote the first draft which included warrantless wiretapping.

I have yet to see this. I went to the bill page, did a search for "warrantless" and nothing came up. And, was he the only one involve in the writing?


That draft became the Patriot Act with some minur reworking. My point is, this is not a partisan issue, not that Bush didn't open the door.

As far as I know, it was the Bush administration that opened the door to warrantless wiretapping. Please show me that I'm wrong (direct links, please).


So he shouldn't be impeached because Bush wasn't? At what point do we begin holding our elected public servants accountable to send a message to future administrations?

I think the American public should be outraged by this, and do whatever it takes to stop these spying programs. Most disconcerning to me is the warrantless carte blance type of spying where there is no paper trail and accountability.


Follow the link... but the history plays no role in what should be done now. Do we send that message to the future, or do we just bicker the point until it passes, leaving the path to tyranny clear.

If you can direct link me to information on wireless wiretapping before the Bush Administration, I will be thankful.
 
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