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Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Yeah, right :roll:

You just made crap up, and now you're denying it
I think you're over-reacting to a tongue in cheek comment. Sensenbrenner certainly could be a hypocrite - particularly for his lack of imagination regarding how such a law could be used.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

As I have been saying since the Patriot Act was first proposed: Never seek political power you wouldn't trust to your worst enemy.

Once you get that power it is a foregone conclusion that one day your opponent will too.

Right you are!

This is why we have a constitution--to keep government within its lawful confines.

True, the american people were deceived by the events of 911 that gave us this, but the american people are just like their elected representatives who voted in the patriot act without reading it. We deserve the government we have for being so lazy, complacent, and unquestioning.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

And we got to this point because good old George Bush passed the Patriot Act. What's the difference? Allowing phone tapping of "suspected terrorists" without proof. Patriot Act opened the flood gates to this. And you quoted a court order, therefore the legality is validated by the court. Just another attempt to make the Obama Administration look like the enemy.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Right you are!

This is why we have a constitution--to keep government within its lawful confines.

True, the american people were deceived by the events of 911 that gave us this, but the american people are just like their elected representatives who voted in the patriot act without reading it. We deserve the government we have for being so lazy, complacent, and unquestioning.

As Benjamin Franklin put it...... "A Republic, if we can keep it".
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

And we got to this point because good old George Bush passed the Patriot Act. What's the difference? Allowing phone tapping of "suspected terrorists" without proof. Patriot Act opened the flood gates to this. And you quoted a court order, therefore the legality is validated by the court. Just another attempt to make the Obama Administration look like the enemy.

Obama IS the enemy.

And so was George Bush.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

And we got to this point because good old George Bush passed the Patriot Act. What's the difference? Allowing phone tapping of "suspected terrorists" without proof. Patriot Act opened the flood gates to this. And you quoted a court order, therefore the legality is validated by the court. Just another attempt to make the Obama Administration look like the enemy.

The "most transparent administration in a generation" secretly collecting the phone records of millions of Americans.

Do you consider him living up to his own standards?

Or is it just petty politics to point out the hypocrisy...
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Obama IS the enemy.

And so was George Bush.

Fair enough assessment there. I should have worded that differently. Probably more like "Trying to make Obama look even worse then he already is"
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The "most transparent administration in a generation" secretly collecting the phone records of millions of Americans.

Do you consider him living up to his own standards?

Or is it just petty politics to point out the hypocrisy...
I never claimed he was the best President ever. I never claimed his Administration was the transparent. I never even intended to make it sound like I was defending Obama. I am against Obama's politics as much as the next guy. I simply want to point out we need to be behind the Administration instead of tearing it down. Obama isn't the enemy, even if you don't like his politics.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

And we got to this point because good old George Bush passed the Patriot Act. What's the difference? Allowing phone tapping of "suspected terrorists" without proof. Patriot Act opened the flood gates to this. And you quoted a court order, therefore the legality is validated by the court. Just another attempt to make the Obama Administration look like the enemy.

Obama is as bad as Bush for this. He has the choice to use the tool or not. He failed. Bush did too.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Obama is as bad as Bush for this. He has the choice to use the tool or not. He failed. Bush did too.
I agree. They both failed. I'm just saying Bush opened the door. I'm not an Obama enthusiast, trust me.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

is fournier a hypocrite?

Welcome to the era of Bush-Obama, a 16-year span of U.S. history that will be remembered for an unprecedented erosion of civil liberties and a disregard for transparency. On the war against a tactic—terrorism—and its insidious fallout, the United States could have skipped the 2008 election.

It made little difference.

Despite his clear and popular promises to the contrary, President Obama has not shifted the balance between security and freedom to a more natural state—one not blinded by worst fears and tarred by power grabs. If anything, things have gotten worse.

Killing civilians and U.S. citizens via drone.

Seizing telephone records at the Associated Press in violation of Justice Department guidelines.

Accusing a respected Fox News reporter of engaging in a conspiracy to commit treason for doing his job.

Even the IRS scandal, while not a matter of foreign policy, strikes at the heart of growing concerns among Americans that their privacy is government's playpen.

And now this: The Guardian newspaper reports that the National Security Agency is collecting telephone records of tens of millions of customers of one of the nation's largest phone companies, Verizon.

[F]or several reasons the news is chilling.

Verizon probably isn't the only company coughing up its documents. Odds are incredibly strong that the government is prying into your telephone records today.

Issued in April, the NSA order "could represent the broadest surveillance order known to have been issued," according to The Washington Post.

The Bush-Obama White House hates transparency. President George W. Bush and his vice president, Dick Cheney, were justifiably criticized by Democrats (none more successfully so than Obama himself) for their penchant for secrecy. Obama promised that he would run history's most transparent administration. By almost any measure, on domestic and well as foreign policies, Obama has broken that promise.

It is the lack of transparency that is most galling about the security versus civil liberties debate under Obama, because it shows his lack of faith in the public.

But he made the [drone] speech under pressure, and reluctantly. It only came amid new revelations about the drone program and the disclosure of newsroom spying (the Guardian may well be in Obama's sights next). Under Bush, the warrantless-wiretap program only stopped after it was publicly disclosed. In that way, the Guardian story is not a surprise, so why didn't Obama long ago acknowledge, explain, and justify such an intrusion into privacy?

Obama has promised to adjust the drone and leaks investigation policies, essentially acknowledging that his administration had gone too far in the name of security. Do you believe him?

Welcome to the Bush-Obama White House: They're Spying on Us - NationalJournal.com
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Until you can show that there was no probable cause, there is no reason to believe anything you say concerning the issue.

Heh, that's fine, don't care if YOU believe me or not. It is hilarious to myself and probably a few others here that you think there was legitimate probable cause to search the records of every verizon customer.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Absolutely agree in terms of the latter.

In terms of the former...I can see why people thought the type of stretchy logic the Bush Admin used was just that, and I'd say the same here. It's an end around in terms of a warrant, as it's going after information that a company has, but specifically because it basically is an umbrella that covers thousands of individuals that they normally would've had to get individual warrants for.

Which goes to my previous point in terms of the notion that it's a matter of how one rationalizes where they want to draw their line of "okay" and "not okay"

I understand, but again so what?

The only reason they did it with this warrant is to be able use whatever evidence in a US court. Before this, they just rendition people to secret prisons... imo it is an upgrade :)
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

several obvious differences between the most transparent president in history and george w what's-his-name

w didn't kill us citizens after consulting "baseball cards" instead of a judge

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all

w's fisa, according to the aclu, "at least was targeted at agents of al qaeda" instead of "every customer of verizon"

maybe that's why the former ap washington bureau chief and current editor of the national journal concludes, "if anything, things have gotten worse"

(links above)

w is history, ie, NOT the president

do you need a source for the last assertion?
 
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Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Oh well if the govt rules that the govt can get a list of every phone call I make, then it must be ok.

Like someone else posted. Just cause it's legal doesn't make it right.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Yes and no. Yes, don't use past transgressions as an excuse for current and future ones. But no, don't pretend that these ills can be cured by partisan politics and simply electing the other party.

Yep. This is pretty much what I was saying.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The National Security Agency's warrant for metadata on every single Verizon call for three months is jaw-dropping in its scope. Except, well, the NSA's surveillance of our communications is most likely much, much bigger than that. Technology has made it possible for the American government to spy on citizens to an extent East Germany could only dream of. Basically everything we say that can be traced digitally is being collected by the NSA. We're supposed to trust that our government will be much better behaved, but they're not, and the White House almost admits it. That doesn't mean they're admitting everything.

In 2006, USA Today's Leslie Cauley reported the NSA was secretly collecting call records with data from AT&T, Verizon, and BellSouth. A source told Cauley, "It's the largest database ever assembled in the world" and that the NSA wanted "to create a database of every call ever made" within U.S. territory. Likewise, in 2011, The New Yorker's Jane Mayer spoke to former NSA crypto-mathematician Bill Binney, who "believes that the agency now stores copies of all e-mails transmitted in America, in case the government wants to retrieve the details later." He thinks the NSA wants all emails to be searchable, the same way we search with Google. "The agency reportedly has the capacity to intercept and download, every six hours, electronic communications equivalent to the contents of the Library of Congress," Mayer said. As Mark Rumold, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told The Atlantic Wire last night, "This is confirmation of what we've long feared, that the NSA has been tracking the calling patterns of the entire country."

And the NSA isn't just collecting the things we say. It's also tracking what we buy and where we go. In 2008, The Wall Street Journal's Siobhan Gorman reported that the NSA's domestic data collection "have evolved to reach more broadly into data about people's communications, travel and finances in the U.S. than the domestic surveillance programs brought to light since the 2001 terrorist attacks." That means emails records, bank transfers, phone records, travel records.

And the NSA would never abuse its awesome surveillance power, right? Wrong. In 2008, NSA workers told ABC News that they routinely eavesdropped on phone sex between troops serving overseas and their loved ones in America. They listened in on both satellite phone calls and calls from the phone banks in Iraq's Green Zone where soldiers call home.

Phone Sex, Banks & Google for Emails: The NSA Spying Is Bigger Than Verizon - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire

hypocrisy, homer?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I understand, but again so what?

The only reason they did it with this warrant is to be able use whatever evidence in a US court. Before this, they just rendition people to secret prisons... imo it is an upgrade :)

Well, I'd dare say that's not the only reason they would be looking to try to secure at least some type of warrant, though definitely one of them. Though I think that's completely seperate from the notion of rendition, as the practice is still an on going one and there's no indication what so ever that this program would have any impact on that at all.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Yes, I read the OP. I wasn't reading him back when Bush was in office, so I don't know if it was hypocritical or not. Regardless, even if it was, it was somewhat irrelevant to me. I've long come to realize that people react differently to their side and the other side doing the same thing in politics. Had he said something like "Spin this Obama fans, Or will you all treat this like you treated bush?" then I may've commented similarly asking him if how he's treating Obama how he treated Bush?


I am really tired today, so maybe I am reading your response wrong, but if I am not, then I have no ****ing clue where you are coming from. To me, the OP was looking for another Obama scandel... like it was new news that this sort of eavesdropping ever existed. He made it partisan before anyone else did, yet he gets a ****ing pass from you. Priceless :roll:. Put yourself in my shoes and you'll see why I had to call him out. Even Maggie didn't know, yet she had no issues chiming in and calling me out even though she was duly informed a few posts later this this has been going on for over a decade. Oopsie.

In any event, it's ****ing ridiculous that you're calling me out when all I was dealing out was straight facts. Disagree with me all you want, I don't give a ****. But to think I'm all thrilled about the current administration doing this is completely absurd.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

“Now that this unconstitutional surveillance effort has been revealed, the government should end it and disclose its full scope, and Congress should initiate a full investigation,” said Michelle Richardson, legislative counsel for the ACLU, in a statement.

She added: “Since 9/11, the government has increasingly classified and concealed not just facts, but the law itself. Such extreme secrecy is inconsistent with our democratic values of open government and accountability.”

5 things you need to know about NSA phone tracking - Tim Mak and Eric Engleman - POLITICO.com

fournier, editor of the elite natl journal and regular msnbc'er: "if anything, things have gotten worse..."

"obama promised... do you believe him?"
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I am really tired today

aren't we all

this this has been going on for over a decade

aclu: fisa under bush "at least was targeted at agents of al qaeda"

(forbes above)

i'm sorry
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

nyt editorial board (link above, thanks to my friend)

Within hours of the disclosure that the federal authorities routinely collect data on phone calls Americans make, regardless of whether they have any bearing on a counterterrorism investigation, the Obama administration issued the same platitude it has offered every time President Obama has been caught overreaching in the use of his powers: Terrorists are a real menace and you should just trust us to deal with them because we have internal mechanisms (that we are not going to tell you about) to make sure we do not violate your rights.

Those reassurances have never been persuasive — whether on secret warrants to scoop up a news agency’s phone records or secret orders to kill an American suspected of terrorism — especially coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability. The administration has now lost all credibility. Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it.

A senior administration official quoted in The Times offered the lame observation that the information does not include the name of any caller, as though there would be the slightest difficulty in matching numbers to names. He said the information “has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats,” because it allows the government “to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.”

That is a vital goal, but how is it served by collecting everyone’s call data? The government can easily collect phone records (including the actual content of those calls) on “known or suspected terrorists” without logging every call made. In fact, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was expanded in 2008 for that very purpose. Essentially, the administration is saying that without any individual suspicion of wrongdoing, the government is allowed to know who Americans are calling every time they make a phone call, for how long they talk and from where.

This sort of tracking can reveal a lot of personal and intimate information about an individual. To casually permit this surveillance — with the American public having no idea that the executive branch is now exercising this power — fundamentally shifts power between the individual and the state, and repudiates constitutional principles governing search, seizure and privacy.

The defense of this practice offered by Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is supposed to be preventing this sort of overreaching, was absurd. She said today that the authorities need this information in case someone might become a terrorist in the future. But what assurance do we have of that, especially since Ms. Feinstein went on to say that she actually did not know how the data being collected was used?

That’s no longer good enough. Mr. Obama clearly had no intention of revealing this eavesdropping, just as he would not have acknowledged the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, had it not been reported in the press. Even then, it took him more than a year and a half to acknowledge the killing, and he is still keeping secret the protocol by which he makes such decisions.

We are not questioning the legality under the Patriot Act of the court order disclosed by The Guardian. But we strongly object to using that power in this manner. It is the very sort of thing against which Mr. Obama once railed, when he said in 2007 that the Bush administration’s surveillance policy “puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide.”

Two Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon and Senator Mark Udall of Colorado, have raised warnings about the government’s overbroad interpretation of its surveillance powers. “We believe most Americans would be stunned to learn the details of how these secret court opinions have interpreted Section 215 of the Patriot Act,” they wrote last year in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. “As we see it, there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what the government secretly claims the law allows. This is a problem, because it is impossible to have an informed public debate about what the law should say when the public doesn’t know what its government thinks the law says.”

This stunning use of the act shows, once again, why it needs to be sharply curtailed if not repealed.

and not a word about the irs, officials pleading the fifth, others lying to congress...

no mention of the ap sweep and the rosen co-conspiracy, nor the ignorant (according to him) ag's testimony on the hill that he'd never heard of potential prosecutions which nbc revealed two days later he'd signed off on (may 15 and 17)...

let alone benghazi, the talking points which torturously took out the truth and left in the lie, until our most transparent president in history promoted the purveyor of that vain video to...

you guessed it, ms rice will now be heading the very nsa which tracks every phone call in america, so busy compiling the greatest database in the world...

surprised?

proud?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

more transparency, tuesday:

AP: Obama appointees using secret email accounts - CBS News

how many secret email accounts?

that's a secret

they're all hiding behind the foia firewall

but we know labor, the epa, hhs...

we have sebelius, lisa jackson, carney...

fiercely fighting foia, tho, are dod, doj, the va, hud, hhs, commerce, doa...

in fact, labor tried to charge ap 1.03 mil to comply with foia---there's a lot of digging to do, lord knows how many emails accounts...

dept rules, however, got in the way, labor's gotta do its own work

lisa jackson at the epa went by richard windsor

why don't you lobby her to 86 the xl?

The secret email accounts complicate an agency's legal responsibilities to find and turn over emails in response to congressional or internal investigations, civil lawsuits or public records requests because employees assigned to compile such responses would necessarily need to know about the accounts to search them. Secret accounts also drive perceptions that government officials are trying to hide actions or decisions.

and:

Courts have consistently set a high bar for the government to withhold public officials' records under the federal privacy rules. A federal judge, Marilyn Hall Patel of California, said in August 2010 that "persons who have placed themselves in the public light" - such as through politics or voluntarily participation in the public arena - have a "significantly diminished privacy interest than others." Her ruling was part of a case in which a journalist sought FBI records, but was denied. "We're talking about an email address, and an email address given to an individual by the government to conduct official business is not private," said Aaron Mackey, a FOIA attorney with the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. He said that's different than, for example, confidential information, such as a Social Security number.

finally:

Obama pledged during his first week in office to make government more transparent and open. The nation's signature open-records law, he said in a memo to his Cabinet, would be "administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails."

are you really surprised?

spend some time in chicago, you'll understand
 
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