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Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily [W:452]

Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I know that this just came out in the news and everything, but are y'all really surprised that the government is checking your phone calls?

I mean it was reported just last year that they were building a
massive data center

The NSA Is Building the Country's Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) | Threat Level | Wired.com

A guy from the NSA is worried

NSA data center front and center in debate over liberty, security and privacy | Fox News

If they are listening in on your telephone calls, what's to stop them from
storing your info in that massive database? (and please don't tell me because some government official said so, they lie on a regular basis)
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily


Is this a surprise? I'm pretty sure that most everything I do goes through an NSA search. The time to be ticked about this was in 2002, or 2003. It's one of the reasons why I left the GOP. All this talk of big brother government in the 90s, then Bush gets elected and we need to just give everything up.

How do you think they figure out who to put on the terrorist watch lists?
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

No matter the administration, it is wrong in my eyes.

Oh, I don't doubt you think it's wrong regardless of whose doing it. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm suggesting you would've spent most of your time in those threads attacking Bush and expressing your disagerement and displeasure with the actions rather than barely saying two words of disapproval but making a multitude of posts just having a go at people expressing their displeasure. Which, fine...I'm used to that in politics. But when you are having a go at people with implications of them being hypocrites or acting differently in the two situations, then it kind of raises an eyebrow.

I don't doubt you think it's wrong in both cases. But I think your REACTION to that wrongness is absolutely shaded differently.

Also, let's be real. The Patriot Act and the various actions taken there weren't themselves born from nothing. ECHELON and CALEA are two such examples started with Democrats in the white house. Under Clinton, after the Olypmic bombing, similar ratcheting up of survelliance in the name of anti-terror occured (Digital Telephony, the Communications Assistant to Law Enforcement Act, Aviation Security and Anti-Terrosim Act, Anti-Terrorism Law Enforcement Act). As described in one artcile:

Using the tragedies of TWA Flight 800 and the Olympic bombing in Atlanta to instill fear of terrorism in the heart of every American, our politicians are promising to make us safe and secure by giving the FBI the power to wiretap more of us with less judicial scrutiny, to access our personal and financial records with no judicial oversight, and to seize our assets by classifying us as "terrorists" based upon our personal and political beliefs.

Link

That's why the "BUT THE LAST GUY..." thing doesn't work so well. Because when it comes to politics, there's always a reasonable argument that "the last guy" was actually just building upon the same things "the last guy!" before him was doing, and so on and so on. Few things are the first instances of encroachment, it simply is another step...another step...another step.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Oh, I don't doubt you think it's wrong regardless of whose doing it. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm suggesting you would've spent most of your time in those threads attacking Bush and expressing your disagerement and displeasure with the actions rather than barely saying two words of disapproval but making a multitude of posts just having a go at people expressing their displeasure. Which, fine...I'm used to that in politics. But when you are having a go at people with implications of them being hypocrites or acting differently in the two situations, then it kind of raises an eyebrow.

I don't doubt you think it's wrong in both cases. But I think your REACTION to that wrongness is absolutely shaded differently.

Also, let's be real. The Patriot Act and the various actions taken there weren't themselves born from nothing. ECHELON and CALEA are two such examples started with Democrats in the white house. Under Clinton, after the Olypmic bombing, similar ratcheting up of survelliance in the name of anti-terror occured (Digital Telephony, the Communications Assistant to Law Enforcement Act, Aviation Security and Anti-Terrosim Act, Anti-Terrorism Law Enforcement Act). As described in one artcile:



That's why the "BUT THE LAST GUY..." thing doesn't work so well. Because when it comes to politics, there's always a reasonable argument that "the last guy" was actually just building upon the same things "the last guy!" before him was doing, and so on and so on. Few things are the first instances of encroachment, it simply is another step...another step...another step.



Yeah, in the grand scheme of things I think most people are guilty of waiting for the next opposition government to come to power before they really complain. Unfortunately, to stop the ever growing surveillance state we need the whole country to stand up against it... but in a divided country it requires half of us to sacrifice more than the other simply because they have to support action against an administration that they otherwise support.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Poor helpless Obama. It's a shame he isn't as powerful as Booooooosh.

They sold their souls to Obama

We're living in a police state and the only thing they care about is defending their false idol. When confronted with facts they are unable to refute they bleet "4 legs good 2 legs bad B000SH!: like sheep.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

They sold their souls to Obama

We're living in a police state and the only thing they care about is defending their false idol. When confronted with facts they are unable to refute they bleet "4 legs good 2 legs bad B000SH!: like sheep.

On the topic of civil rights and privacy the Right has zero moral authority.

PUT FORTH A SERIOUS, ELECTABLE ALTERNATIVE.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Remember how the Left beat Bush half to death over the Patriot Act? Now here these hypocrites are taking that law to insane limits. And since they and the IRS appear to be such busy-bodies, there's no telling what inane purpose they've contrived to justify their actions.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

This is me when I think about the Bush government approved spying on it's citizens:

Is that enough or do you want tears too?

So youre more outraged at the hypocrasy than the abuse of power. Understood.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Susan Rice is going to go after everyone who thinks she's a brainless tit - that's why it's millions of phone records and not just a few.

She doesn't exactly seem ate up with bright (or integrity either), but attention has now been drawn to her, and so she will be watched. Everybody's always interested in an example of the Peter Principle. ;)
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I haven't done the research, but it's a fair bet that every single GOP pol w/the exception of Rand Paul is in favor of the policy.

I also havent done the research but I bet many GOP pol are against this particular application of the policy.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I also havent done the research but I bet many GOP pol are against this particular application of the policy.

Shocking that would be!!!
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

It seems that my post was mistaken for "BUT BUSH DID IT TOO SO ITS OKAY!LOL1!" This is not the case. I have always said that in the area of civil liberties and privacy Obama has been sorely lacking, but so far every serious contender the Republicans have put forth have held...the exact same position.

So give us an alternative and we'll talk. Until then, stop blaming Obama, and start blaming a system that believes we should only be allowed to have the choice of a)having our rights crapped on and b)having our rights crapped on.

When Bush did it, it was criminal. When Obama does it, its 'sorely lacking'.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

On the topic of civil rights and privacy the Right has zero moral authority.

PUT FORTH A SERIOUS, ELECTABLE ALTERNATIVE.

You're still blaming someone else. It's pathetic.

Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me | News Blogs - CNET News

My job this morning is to be so persuasive...that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack," he told a crowd of about 300 Ivy Leaguers--and, by the looks of it, a handful of locals who managed to gain access to what was supposed to be a students-only event.

For one thing, under an Obama presidency, Americans will be able to leave behind the era of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and "wiretaps without warrants," he said.

Now he's acting like a Fascist. Why are you supporting Fascism? Explain yourself.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I would hope at some point we who lean right and left which have a problem with this could put our partisanship aside and band together against things like this. Unfortunately, there's too much knee-jerk to criticisms of Bush and Obama. Both are in the wrong here, and there's nothing wrong with criticizing someone you may ideology agree with most of the time when they do something you clearly find wrong.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

You're still blaming someone else. It's pathetic.

Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me | News Blogs - CNET News



Now he's acting like a Fascist. Why are you supporting Fascism? Explain yourself.


The right wing in this thread: we will criticize Obama for failing in the area of civil liberties and privacy, but we won't even discuss providing an electable right wing alternative who respects civil liberties and privacy.

Thanks guys. You rock.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Remember how the Left beat Bush half to death over the Patriot Act? Now here these hypocrites are taking that law to insane limits. And since they and the IRS appear to be such busy-bodies, there's no telling what inane purpose they've contrived to justify their actions.

Don't forget

This tyrannical administration is also demanding you hand over your guns to the Government. They are still actively trying to repeal the 2nd amendment. Who has spent months on these boards demanding that Obama be given the right to take your guns away? Liberals

The Left has turned Fascist

The right wing in this thread: we will criticize Obama for failing in the area of civil liberties and privacy, but we won't even discuss providing an electable right wing alternative who respects civil liberties and privacy.

Thanks guys. You rock.

This is laughable. Your failure is the fact that you need someone else to tell you who an alternative to this tyranny is. Remember Rand Paul's filibuster? Oh that's right, what did you say about that again? You're pathetically trying to obfuscate and change the subject. Shameless.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

So one wonders what they do with that information? Flag customers who make call to certain countries? It has to be something like that. ??

That doesn't look to be the case.

The article says specifically they're requesting information on all calls, both foreign and domestic.

I suppose I could even partially defend Pres. Obama if he was only targeting calls to select regions of the world known for terrorism. That doesn't make it right, of course, but I could certainly see the argument that he's honestly just trying to thwart terrorism in that case. Apparently he wants to know what we're all doing at any time.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Yeah, but that was going in the opposite direction. Basically, if the suicide-bomber-facilitator in Quetta made a sudden phone call to New York, we didn't stop collecting just because the other end of the line was in New York - we waited to see who was getting called by suicide-bomber-facilitators from Pakistan.

This seems more like collecting every single American phone records, and sifting through them to see who's been naughty or nice.

It's the difference between a policeman having probable cause, and searching you just to see if anything turns up.

Actually, this particular request seems to have explicitly excluded any entirely foreign communications.
“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”
NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Oh, I don't doubt you think it's wrong regardless of whose doing it. That's not what I'm suggesting.

I'm suggesting you would've spent most of your time in those threads attacking Bush and expressing your disagerement and displeasure with the actions rather than barely saying two words of disapproval but making a multitude of posts just having a go at people expressing their displeasure. Which, fine...I'm used to that in politics. But when you are having a go at people with implications of them being hypocrites or acting differently in the two situations, then it kind of raises an eyebrow.

Good golly, Zyph... did you read the OP???? Frankly it stops just short of trolling. And for the love of God, why do you call it "attacking" Bush when all I am doing is setting the facts straight???

I don't doubt you think it's wrong in both cases. But I think your REACTION to that wrongness is absolutely shaded differently.

Fine, you have a right to your opinion.

Also, let's be real. The Patriot Act and the various actions taken there weren't themselves born from nothing. ECHELON and CALEA are two such examples started with Democrats in the white house. Under Clinton, after the Olypmic bombing, similar ratcheting up of survelliance in the name of anti-terror occured (Digital Telephony, the Communications Assistant to Law Enforcement Act, Aviation Security and Anti-Terrosim Act, Anti-Terrorism Law Enforcement Act). As described in one artcile:

Yes, but from what I understand, you needed a court-approved warrant to do so. That's what keeps these spying programs from getting out of hand, IMO. But since the Bush Administration--or, pretty much the Patriot Act--that has changed. That is the biggie, eye-opening change.

That's why the "BUT THE LAST GUY..." thing doesn't work so well.

Like you just did above? :roll:


Because when it comes to politics, there's always a reasonable argument that "the last guy" was actually just building upon the same things "the last guy!" before him was doing, and so on and so on. Few things are the first instances of encroachment, it simply is another step...another step...another step.

I can agree with this.

However, some steps are broader. Stopping the courts from getting involved was a big one, and that happened under Bush. Obama has certainly continued the program, but I am not sure he's done anything differently than staus quo.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Sen. Paul Statement on National Security Agency Surveillance Rand Paul | United States Senator

Jun 6, 2013

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Sen. Rand Paul today released the following statement in response to news of the NSA extensive seizure and surveillance of Americans' Verizon phone records.


The National Security Agency's seizure and surveillance of virtually all of Verizon's phone customers is an astounding assault on the Constitution. After revelations that the Internal Revenue Service targeted political dissidents and the Department of Justice seized reporters' phone records, it would appear that this Administration has now sunk to a new low.

When Sen. Mike Lee and I offered an amendment that would attach Fourth Amendment protections to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act last year, it was defeated, and FISA was passed by an overwhelming majority of the Senate. At the time, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid remarked that FISA was "necessary to protect us from the evil in this world."

The Bill of Rights was designed to protect us from evil, too, particularly that which always correlates with concentrated government power, and particularly Executive power. If the President and Congress would obey the Fourth Amendment we all swore to uphold, this new shocking revelation that the government is now spying on citizens' phone data en masse would never have happened.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

I would hope at some point we who lean right and left which have a problem with this could put our partisanship aside and band together against things like this. Unfortunately, there's too much knee-jerk to criticisms of Bush and Obama. Both are in the wrong here, and there's nothing wrong with criticizing someone you may ideology agree with most of the time when they do something you clearly find wrong.
Yeah, I don't understand some people's reactions here. This is unacceptable under Obama just as it was unacceptable under Bush. It's really not that complicated.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

Shocking that would be!!!

May not be so shocking when they learn that the call records for their extra-marital trysts are now in O's possession.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

If anyone wants these NSA phone records, just write to the Chinese govt. and they will give it to you.
 
Re: Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

The White House wont even confirm they they are doing this, even though congress already has. Why is this spying secret? The terrorists know that we do this. But americans arent allowed to know when they govt wants to spy on us?
 
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