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Florida Man Charged with Murder for Killing Ex-Girlfriend's FETUS[W330;338]

Well, I have hardly read everything you have ever written, no disrespect intended. Why don't you reference your "debunking" so I can have a little look see myself, not that I don't trust you... or that I do trust you. I just like to measure things myself, to verify. How does paternity work in your estimation? No legal obligation? You only have responsibility for the child if you signed something agreeing to it beforehand, is that how paternity law goes? Men are off the hook if they don't have a formal contract, is that it?

Wow...Methinks someone is much mistaken...

It was in this thread.

No. This argument is a fat stupid sack of fail. Contracts do not work that way. You cannot make contracts work that way. Contracts are by their very nature explicit and deliberate and mutual. You cannot accidentally enter into a contract and you cannot enter into a contract without knowing the terms. A contract involves very specifically agreeing, with full informed consent, that you are going to do a specific thing in exchange for specific remuneration. You are trying to argue that the woman is entering into a contract with a being before it exists, without its consent, which is not now and not ever expected to provide compensation, on the basis of performing an act with a third party that does not in every case or even the majority of cases result in that being existing. There is no possible way under any system of contract law as it is understood by any civilization, regardless of its laws concerning abortion, that having sex can be construed as agreeing to any kind of contract with the unborn child to provide gestation.

As for how paternity works in my estimation, it works like a criminal scheme by the State to save money on welfare programs by extorting men into supporting children that they may or may not even be the biological fathers of-- the State doesn't care who is forced to be responsible for the child's upkeep, as long as it saves money. The fact that men have their money stolen by the State and given to the mothers of their (supposedly) biological children doesn't make them fathers, doesn't make them morally responsible for those children, and doesn't provide any kind of sound moral basis for employing similar coercive measures against women. You're arguing that one wrong justifies another.
 
'Implied Contracts Although contracts that are implied in fact and contracts implied in law are both called implied contracts, a true implied contract consists of obligations arising from a mutual agreement and intent to promise, which have not been expressed in words...'

Mutual agreement and intent to promise. Those are requirements for an implied contract. They do not exist here. Do you even read your own arguments?
 
Pregnancy does start when the female egg is fertilized with the male sperm...the pregnancy continues with implantation...

According to the scientific community and long standing federal policy pregnancy begins with implantantion.
According to both the scientific community and long-standing federal policy, a woman is considered pregnant only when a fertilized egg has implanted in the wall of her uterus;
< SNIP>

Since the 1970s, the Department of Health and Human Services has had an official definition of pregnancy for purposes of establishing certain safeguards when federally funded research involves pregnant women.
<SNIP>
Like the proposed Clinton regulation, however, the rules promulgated by the Bush administration, which remain in effect today,
say that pregnancy "encompasses the period of time from implantation until delivery."


< SNIP>

The Implications of Defining When a Woman Is Pregnant
 
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Mutual agreement and intent to promise. Those are requirements for an implied contract. They do not exist here.

Do you believe that anyone refutes the fact that engaging in intercourse carries the probability that a pregnancy could occur as a result of the act?

I think that covers both your Mutual agreement, and Intent to promise wording you are using here....

Do you even read your own arguments?

Oh I see, you really didn't want to discuss anything, but are more than willing to insult...Well, I guess I should have expected it, from you that is.
 
Do you believe that anyone refutes the fact that engaging in intercourse carries the probability that a pregnancy could occur as a result of the act?

I think that covers both your Mutual agreement, and Intent to promise wording you are using here....

And you accuse me of mental gymnastics. THAT IS NOT WHAT WORDS MEAN. The fact that something is a possibility does not mean that a person agrees to it, and does not confer any obligation whatsoever to perpetuate the situation.
 
And you accuse me of mental gymnastics. THAT IS NOT WHAT WORDS MEAN. The fact that something is a possibility does not mean that a person agrees to it, and does not confer any obligation whatsoever to perpetuate the situation.

Is the sex engaged in not consensual?
 
Ah, a new use for the same argument that GW's use....Guttmacher...pfft! :roll: Do you ever use anything other than sources totally biased to your own point of view?

Oh ...you would like another source?
Ask ...and I will happily provide another source:

Contra-Contraception

By RUSSELL SHORTO

Published: May 7, 2006
According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, however, pregnancy begins not at fertilization but at implantation.
The medical thinking behind this definition has to do with the fact that implantation is the moment when a woman's body begins to nurture the fertilized egg.
The roughly one-half of all fertilized eggs that never attach to a uterine wall are thus not generally considered to be tiny humans — ensouled beings — that died but rather fertilized eggs that did not turn into pregnancies.
Federal regulations enacted during the Bush administration agree with this, stating,
"Pregnancy encompasses the period of time from implantation until delivery."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/magazine/07contraception.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
The fact remains that they weren't 'leftys' as you claim they were.

Lefties, or useful idiots, i don't care which. I'd like to see your proof they weren't lefties. Being appointed by someone means nothing. Your ill-informed opinion is what it is.
 
Do you believe that anyone refutes the fact that engaging in intercourse carries the probability that a pregnancy could occur as a result of the act?

I think that covers both your Mutual agreement, and Intent to promise wording you are using here....



Oh I see, you really didn't want to discuss anything, but are more than willing to insult...Well, I guess I should have expected it, from you that is.

His question was a genuine one. After all, the fact that many women have abortions should have clued you in to the fact that their having sex was not an agreement to not have an abortion.
 
All you've done is show how pedantic you can be.

Guess you showed me with that, huh? As a response to my comments... or even as a defense of your own perspective, that did not add a lot of an edificational nature, just not much scholarly umph behind your statement, wouldn't you agree?
 
According to the scientific community and long standing federal policy pregnancy begins with implantantion.


The Implications of Defining When a Woman Is Pregnant

While I appreciate your belief in the very small scientific community, they study science, they cannot and do not proclaim for me what I believe nor what the vast numbers of us believe to be closer to the real truth. They are drawing a line where they want to, that is not up to them... if we want, if we decide to draw it elsewhere as a society. We should all be working to change where the line is drawn for the betterment of mankind.
 
And you accuse me of mental gymnastics. THAT IS NOT WHAT WORDS MEAN. The fact that something is a possibility does not mean that a person agrees to it, and does not confer any obligation whatsoever to perpetuate the situation.

So, let me see, if a person gets into the driver's seat of a car, and knows by driving that there is a possibility of a wreck, but this same person who is driving doesn't explicitly and previously agree to this specific wreck that does, indeed, happen, then he or she is not responsible? Isn't that responsibility implied...implied that when you get into your car and drive it on the public roads there is that potentiality? The possibility you may run a red light accidentally, or heck maybe some even on purpose, [ isn't there the possibility that one might get pregnant, that one might accidentally, or heck maybe some even on purpose, create a baby ] and cause a wreck... but you are saying that since it was only a possibility, then the driver has no implied responsibility? Shouldn't someone let the defense lawyers in on this secret?
 
DNA is not a signature. It can be used to identify individuals, but it is not a form of consent, nor does it prove consent.

And two people having sex with a pregnancy resulting does not form a contract either. Your comparing it to a contract is just really wacky and has no basis in the law. In addition, the father of a ZEF has no legal obligation to the ZEF. This is just another wacky idea.

My wording is not unbecoming. It is realistic. It's a reasonable characterization of then nonsensical claims you've been making, such as how you believe that there is some legal obligation between the father and a ZEF. Calling it a delusion is 100% accurate.

And you might well take your own advice and prove your own claims. So far, all you've done is make claims while providing nothing to support them besides the fact that you actually believe in your delusions.

Totally agree on the fact that DNA does not prove consent, well...at least it doesn't in a good 1% of the cases [ that would be the average of 13,000 rapes and incests that occur out of the average 1 million 250 thousand abortions, planned killings, that occur every year in our country, the US of A. So, to be accurate, lets bump that up to .0104 . 50 million lives taken in this manner since Roe.

98.96% [ basically 99 percent] of the times the sex was consensual leading up to an abortion. DNA is plenty sufficient to prove paternity…

So, semantics, both knowing the bottom line…which = DNA is as good/ better than a signature. Of the 100% of the times abortion is bidden/entreated each and every year, 98.96% of the times this sex resulting in a pregnancy is just plain old consensual, as you know including willingness and/or, at minimum, ultimate agreement. We can quibble over the 1percenters later… okay okay, the 1.04%ers. 1% is statistically insignificant… yet should still be dealt with in good faith… and with dignity. That is a discussion worth having even though I leave open the door, but unless logically and morally convinced, will remain intellectually honest in a steadfast support of innocent yet voiceless unborn. It is just the right thing to do. Up to a limited point I can see the other side, but life is the superior right, especially in the 99% of the cases where nobody is forced. Totally unconcerned whether you agree or not, I only appeal to the logical in any event, ideologues generally cannot be swayed in the face of the rational, but the just and the logical can be... and the facts of the matter are there are consequences to actions... and one must accept one's own personal responsibilities...really does not matter one whit what sangha thinks...

And, tell me...

What, one should ask, besides a loved one, what is more valuable in life to you than your very own life…??

And… to just summarily remove that opportunity from someone else...an innocent someone else paying for the bad decisions of others... and so that chance at the most precious thing you own you can simply take in total from another, without their consent? Don’t know about you, but would that not just be considered just toooooo cosmically cruel?

Law has gotten away from good sense and we, the people, need take it back. Logic and justice should prevail in the law. To a much lesser degree emotion, much lesser. What you call wacky will change real quick to just how its done once we get Roe overturned. Just will be.

Let me get this straight, you are saying the father of a child bears no responsibility? Now you talk about whacky…


Hhhmmmm….
Calling me delusional then adding the 100% accurate partjust classic, sangha… so we can all assume this statement is as factually accurate as all the rest of your 100% accurates have been, wow, what a hoot… thanks, made my day, whew…

But such the watery justification for using name calling, while at the same time not even attempting high brow? Unsophisticated ad hominems? Having developed the appropriately abundant epidermal material over here, however, one usually need only consider the fountainhead from which the crudities sequentially flow.

It is your duty to ask or question any claim I have made, so ask away. I have provided many sources and quoted documentation, including the Constitution, the D.O.I., the pertinent portions of UVVA 2004, the pertinent parts of the R v W decision, Merriam as well as other sources for the vocabulary we are using, blah blah blah, etc, etc…and my logic you have yet to even raise a dull spoon to….nor... lest we forget all your myriad factual inaccuracies previously strewn wildly about but nicely placed in the evidence locker of my previous comments.

If you are just going to want to trade more verbal barbs... well, you'll continue to lose at that as well, soooo...
 
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Guess you showed me with that, huh? As a response to my comments... or even as a defense of your own perspective, that did not add a lot of an edificational nature, just not much scholarly umph behind your statement, wouldn't you agree?

"edificational" is not a word
 
While I appreciate your belief in the very small scientific community, they study science, they cannot and do not proclaim for me what I believe nor what the vast numbers of us believe to be closer to the real truth. They are drawing a line where they want to, that is not up to them... if we want, if we decide to draw it elsewhere as a society. We should all be working to change where the line is drawn for the betterment of mankind.

How dare those scientists use facts to try and stop you from speaking for the vast hordes!!
 
So, let me see, if a person gets into the driver's seat of a car, and knows by driving that there is a possibility of a wreck, but this same person who is driving doesn't explicitly and previously agree to this specific wreck that does, indeed, happen, then he or she is not responsible? Isn't that responsibility implied...implied that when you get into your car and drive it on the public roads there is that potentiality? The possibility you may run a red light accidentally, or heck maybe some even on purpose, [ isn't there the possibility that one might get pregnant, that one might accidentally, or heck maybe some even on purpose, create a baby ] and cause a wreck... but you are saying that since it was only a possibility, then the driver has no implied responsibility? Shouldn't someone let the defense lawyers in on this secret?

The driver did not consent to a contract that requires him to get into an accident.
 
Totally agree on the fact that DNA does not prove consent, well...at least it doesn't in a good 1% of the cases [ that would be the average of 13,000 rapes and incests that occur out of the average 1 million 250 thousand abortions, planned killings, that occur every year in our country, the US of A. So, to be accurate, lets bump that up to .0104 . 50 million lives taken in this manner since Roe.

98.96% [ basically 99 percent] of the times the sex was consensual leading up to an abortion. DNA is plenty sufficient to prove paternity…

So, semantics, both knowing the bottom line…which = DNA is as good/ better than a signature. Of the 100% of the times abortion is bidden/entreated each and every year, 98.96% of the times this sex resulting in a pregnancy is just plain old consensual, as you know including willingness and/or, at minimum, ultimate agreement. We can quibble over the 1percenters later… okay okay, the 1.04%ers. 1% is statistically insignificant… yet should still be dealt with in good faith… and with dignity. That is a discussion worth having even though I leave open the door, but unless logically and morally convinced, will remain intellectually honest in a steadfast support of innocent yet voiceless unborn. It is just the right thing to do. Up to a limited point I can see the other side, but life is the superior right, especially in the 99% of the cases where nobody is forced. Totally unconcerned whether you agree or not, I only appeal to the logical in any event, ideologues generally cannot be swayed in the face of the rational, but the just and the logical can be... and the facts of the matter are there are consequences to actions... and one must accept one's own personal responsibilities...really does not matter one whit what sangha thinks...

And, tell me...

What, one should ask, besides a loved one, what is more valuable in life to you than your very own life…??

And… to just summarily remove that opportunity from someone else...an innocent someone else paying for the bad decisions of others... and so that chance at the most precious thing you own you can simply take in total from another, without their consent? Don’t know about you, but would that not just be considered just toooooo cosmically cruel?

Law has gotten away from good sense and we, the people, need take it back. Logic and justice should prevail in the law. To a much lesser degree emotion, much lesser. What you call wacky will change real quick to just how its done once we get Roe overturned. Just will be.

Let me get this straight, you are saying the father of a child bears no responsibility? Now you talk about whacky…


Hhhmmmm….
Calling me delusional then adding the 100% accurate partjust classic, sangha… so we can all assume this statement is as factually accurate as all the rest of your 100% accurates have been, wow, what a hoot… thanks, made my day, whew…

But such the watery justification for using name calling, while at the same time not even attempting high brow? Unsophisticated ad hominems? Having developed the appropriately abundant epidermal material over here, however, one usually need only consider the fountainhead from which the crudities sequentially flow.

It is your duty to ask or question any claim I have made, so ask away. I have provided many sources and quoted documentation, including the Constitution, the D.O.I., the pertinent portions of UVVA 2004, the pertinent parts of the R v W decision, Merriam as well as other sources for the vocabulary we are using, blah blah blah, etc, etc…and my logic you have yet to even raise a dull spoon to….nor... lest we forget all your myriad factual inaccuracies previously strewn wildly about but nicely placed in the evidence locker of my previous comments.

If you are just going to want to trade more verbal barbs... well, you'll continue to lose at that as well, soooo...

OK, please show me where the constitution says that a ZEF is a person.
 
Totally agree on the fact that DNA does not prove consent, well...at least it doesn't in a good 1% of the cases [ that would be the average of 13,000 rapes and incests that occur out of the average 1 million 250 thousand abortions, planned killings, that occur every year in our country, the US of A. So, to be accurate, lets bump that up to .0104 . 50 million lives taken in this manner since Roe.

98.96% [ basically 99 percent] of the times the sex was consensual leading up to an abortion. DNA is plenty sufficient to prove paternity…

So, semantics, both knowing the bottom line…which = DNA is as good/ better than a signature. Of the 100% of the times abortion is bidden/entreated each and every year, 98.96% of the times this sex resulting in a pregnancy is just plain old consensual, as you know including willingness and/or, at minimum, ultimate agreement. We can quibble over the 1percenters later… okay okay, the 1.04%ers. 1% is statistically insignificant… yet should still be dealt with in good faith… and with dignity. That is a discussion worth having even though I leave open the door, but unless logically and morally convinced, will remain intellectually honest in a steadfast support of innocent yet voiceless unborn. It is just the right thing to do. Up to a limited point I can see the other side, but life is the superior right, especially in the 99% of the cases where nobody is forced. Totally unconcerned whether you agree or not, I only appeal to the logical in any event, ideologues generally cannot be swayed in the face of the rational, but the just and the logical can be... and the facts of the matter are there are consequences to actions... and one must accept one's own personal responsibilities...really does not matter one whit what sangha thinks...

And, tell me...

What, one should ask, besides a loved one, what is more valuable in life to you than your very own life…??

And… to just summarily remove that opportunity from someone else...an innocent someone else paying for the bad decisions of others... and so that chance at the most precious thing you own you can simply take in total from another, without their consent? Don’t know about you, but would that not just be considered just toooooo cosmically cruel?

Law has gotten away from good sense and we, the people, need take it back. Logic and justice should prevail in the law. To a much lesser degree emotion, much lesser. What you call wacky will change real quick to just how its done once we get Roe overturned. Just will be.

Let me get this straight, you are saying the father of a child bears no responsibility? Now you talk about whacky…


Hhhmmmm….
Calling me delusional then adding the 100% accurate partjust classic, sangha… so we can all assume this statement is as factually accurate as all the rest of your 100% accurates have been, wow, what a hoot… thanks, made my day, whew…

But such the watery justification for using name calling, while at the same time not even attempting high brow? Unsophisticated ad hominems? Having developed the appropriately abundant epidermal material over here, however, one usually need only consider the fountainhead from which the crudities sequentially flow.

It is your duty to ask or question any claim I have made, so ask away. I have provided many sources and quoted documentation, including the Constitution, the D.O.I., the pertinent portions of UVVA 2004, the pertinent parts of the R v W decision, Merriam as well as other sources for the vocabulary we are using, blah blah blah, etc, etc…and my logic you have yet to even raise a dull spoon to….nor... lest we forget all your myriad factual inaccuracies previously strewn wildly about but nicely placed in the evidence locker of my previous comments.

If you are just going to want to trade more verbal barbs... well, you'll continue to lose at that as well, soooo...


I only wish there was a button for BRAVO!!!!!!
 
"edificational" is not a word


BWHAAAAA! Now that is funny right there! :rofl

OK, please show me where the constitution says that a ZEF is a person.

Show us where in the constitution an amendment was passed that was abortion specific.
 
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