Obama: IRS wrongdoing is ‘outrageous’

I'm no Obama fan, but I'm glad he made a statement.

Mithros said:

It is, because profiling is Un-American. Even though Republicans were the primary purpatrators of marginal/fraudulant 501c4 groups, this does not mean that Republican groups should get more scrutiny.
Republicans' secret formula ? 501(c)(4) - Los Angeles Times (an analysis of the 501c4 explosion which happened after 2010)

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I agree with anyone who thinks that what happened was wrong. All I'm saying right now is that at least Obama's words were correct. It remains to be seen what becomes of those words.

nota bene said:

So about this IRS scandal, why are events which began in 2011 only now being discussed? Because timing is everything?

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Are you saying that the Administration just leaked this now because they wanted to distract from Benghazi? That just seems like f-ed up logic to me. "Don't pay attention to my bad decisions which weren't criminal. Instead, focus on these allegations that are!"

(I'm not saying that is what you're saying, I'm just wondering)

nota bene said:

Yes, and I qualified with "to my face." This marks twice that I've happened to have been standing in front of a TV and have heard a President lie and thought, "Why, my President is lying right to my face."

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Then we know that you weren't alive for Nixon.

nota bene said:

The state-run media? What? Is that how the news was made public?

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the news was made public because the IRS admitted doing the profiling in a public speech it couldn't be hid any more

I'm a veteran of 4 audits over my lifetime and the first one cost me money because I (sort of deliberately) expensed things that should have been carried as inventory. The other 3 audits resulted in no change in my taxes. I had one audit at my house/office, one at the IRS office and one where they actually spied on my business for a month before the "surprise audit" happened.

In every case, they were polite, cooperative and actually friendly. My last audit (the surprise one) I had my CPA deal with it because I was scared and it cost me $3K in CPA fees but no handcuffs.

It's a pain in the butt but no big deal unless you've been telling outrageous lies and can't cover ourself with adequate phony documents.

I think the computer selects the auditees, not individuals. What's going on now is the process for approving 501c (or whichever non-profit class political groups use) does get assigned to a live agent. I've been through this process but animal rescue licenses are the easiest to get while religion and politics are viewed more skeptically. Why any group that isn't helping someone gets to be tax free is incomprehensible to me. 99% of this froups set it up not because they give a **** but in order ti get suckers to donate money and pat themselves handsome salaries and contract out their work to friends and relatives.

The whole "non-profit" process is a total scam and if I am elected, it will be goodbye to "tax free non-profits" unless they can prove nobody is making money on the deal and that it is completely a labor of love.


(Specklebang for President 2016. Time to put a cat in the White House!)

Erod said:

I was audited this year by the IRS for the first time in my life. Wonder if it had to do with my posts here?

Hmmm.

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ocean515 said:

And how did you like the experience?

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specklebang said:

I'm a veteran of 4 audits over my lifetime and the first one cost me money because I (sort of deliberately) expensed things that should have been carried as inventory. The other 3 audits resulted in no change in my taxes. I had one audit at my house/office, one at the IRS office and one where they actually spied on my business for a month before the "surprise audit" happened.

In every case, they were polite, cooperative and actually friendly. My last audit (the surprise one) I had my CPA deal with it because I was scared and it cost me $3K in CPA fees but no handcuffs.

It's a pain in the butt but no big deal unless you've been telling outrageous lies and can't cover ourself with adequate phony documents.

I think the computer selects the auditees, not individuals. What's going on now is the process for approving 501c (or whichever non-profit class political groups use) does get assigned to a live agent. I've been through this process but animal rescue licenses are the easiest to get while religion and politics are viewed more skeptically. Why any group that isn't helping someone gets to be tax free is incomprehensible to me. 99% of this froups set it up not because they give a **** but in order ti get suckers to donate money and pat themselves handsome salaries and contract out their work to friends and relatives.

The whole "non-profit" process is a total scam and if I am elected, it will be goodbye to "tax free non-profits" unless they can prove nobody is making money on the deal and that it is completely a labor of love.


(Specklebang for President 2016. Time to put a cat in the White House!)

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$3k in CPA fees, but it's no big deal.

What would have happened if you couldn't afford to spend the $3k?

Where is the cut off where it's cheaper to pay what the IRS claims you owe, as opposed to fighting their conclusions all the way to tax court?

The IRS can end your business, seize your home, attach your wages, and now has demonstrated they can decide what political agenda is accetable, or not.

These facts should scare the heck out of people. Of couse, only a ***** running for President would think otherwise...

Just to clarify something......these accusations don't appear to be unwarranted audits of active conservative 501(c)(4)'s but are centered around the approval mechanism for such applicants.

When applying for non-profit status the applicant needs to provide certain information which justifies their function in accordance with the rules regarding not for profit operation. In the cases under discussion it appears that certain organizations were subjected to undue scrutiny in this process based on their political lean.

If you make very little money or you make most of your money through W-2 labor, you are unlikely to be audited unless you make an outrageous claim.

The IRS audits less than 1% of the returns. They don't do field audits of clerks making $43K a year because the computer algorithm is much smarter than that.

They can seize your property etc. IF YOU FAIL TO PAY YOUR TAXES. That is the rule. You should have paid them. If you didn't, you have nothing to cry about.

The current scandal has to do with non-profit status applications. It is not about audits. That shows the IRS is out of control and that there are severe management issues. This should not have happened and shows poor management skills from the King. However, that isn't why anybody here might get audited. The computer picks auditees, not individual agents or we'd be drowning in scandals.

In 1985, the year of my major audit, (the audit was in 1987 for my 1985 tax return) I reported an AGI of $65,911.00 and paid taxes of $15,375. So $3K was about 5% of my income and I didn't appreciate that very much. I can't find my 1987 return but yeah, I could afford it.

So, you don't like *****? Good. More for me.

ocean515 said:

$3k in CPA fees, but it's no big deal.

What would have happened if you couldn't afford to spend the $3k?

Where is the cut off where it's cheaper to pay what the IRS claims you owe, as opposed to fighting their conclusions all the way to tax court?

The IRS can end your business, seize your home, attach your wages, and now has demonstrated they can decide what political agenda is accetable, or not.

These facts should scare the heck out of people. Of couse, only a ***** running for President would think otherwise...

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specklebang said:

If you make very little money or you make most of your money through W-2 labor, you are unlikely to be audited unless you make an outrageous claim.

The IRS audits less than 1% of the returns. They don't do field audits of clerks making $43K a year because the computer algorithm is much smarter than that.

They can seize your property etc. IF YOU FAIL TO PAY YOUR TAXES. That is the rule. You should have paid them. If you didn't, you have nothing to cry about.

The current scandal has to do with non-profit status applications. It is not about audits. That shows the IRS is out of control and that there are severe management issues. This should not have happened and shows poor management skills from the King. However, that isn't why anybody here might get audited. The computer picks auditees, not individual agents or we'd be drowning in scandals.

In 1985, the year of my major audit, (the audit was in 1987 for my 1985 tax return) I reported an AGI of $65,911.00 and paid taxes of $15,375. So $3K was about 5% of my income and I didn't appreciate that very much. I can't find my 1987 return but yeah, I could afford it.

So, you don't like *****? Good. More for me.

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Consider this - the IRS has pretty much set themselves up to demand electronic filling of tax returns. In the not to distant future, electronic filling will be the only way they will accept returns. That means all those returns are digitized. It will take little more than a mouse click to run millions of returns through their "sniffer" programs, using criteria they themselves are in control of.

So if "tea party" is enough to "snif out" a group for additional scrutiny, why couldn't the same be done to filed returns?

You spent time an money to deal with your issue. What happens when others don't have that time or money? Do they stop trying to claim those legitimate deductions?

So, do you propose that we no longer pay taxes or should we pay taxes but trust 100% of those returns to be accurate and honest? Just because "some" people "might" not have the time and money?

Self-employed people have the greatest ability to lie about their taxes. If they get audited, that's just the luck of the draw. To get audited on a W2 wage, you'd have to make a ridiculous claim and in those cases, they simply contact you about the claim and require backup documentation, they don't do a full blown field audit and you don't have to use a CPA and you don't have to cooperate beyond giving them your records.

Sure, you could try to make "look elsewhere to see if this taxpayer is "Conservative" or "Liberal" a paart of the algorithm but that's a pretty big modification and just like this current event, somebody will get in trouble over it.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.


Meow.

ocean515 said:

Consider this - the IRS has pretty much set themselves up to demand electronic filling of tax returns. In the not to distant future, electronic filling will be the only way they will accept returns. That means all those returns are digitized. It will take little more than a mouse click to run millions of returns through their "sniffer" programs, using criteria they themselves are in control of.

So if "tea party" is enough to "snif out" a group for additional scrutiny, why couldn't the same be done to filed returns?

You spent time an money to deal with your issue. What happens when others don't have that time or money? Do they stop trying to claim those legitimate deductions?

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rocket88 said:

Then we know that you weren't alive for Nixon.

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Oh, but I was. I just wasn't standing in front of a TV and hearing this President directly, which I've specified twice now. Where were you when the infamous "Checkers" speech was delivered? During Watergate? Were you an adult standing in front of the TV and listening live?

specklebang said:

So, do you propose that we no longer pay taxes or should we pay taxes but trust 100% of those returns to be accurate and honest? Just because "some" people "might" not have the time and money?

Self-employed people have the greatest ability to lie about their taxes. If they get audited, that's just the luck of the draw. To get audited on a W2 wage, you'd have to make a ridiculous claim and in those cases, they simply contact you about the claim and require backup documentation, they don't do a full blown field audit and you don't have to use a CPA and you don't have to cooperate beyond giving them your records.

Sure, you could try to make "look elsewhere to see if this taxpayer is "Conservative" or "Liberal" a paart of the algorithm but that's a pretty big modification and just like this current event, somebody will get in trouble over it.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.


Meow.

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No, I think people need to pay their taxes. However, I have great concern over the IRS and the almost infinite power they have over the citizens it oversees.

My concern is hightened by the latest story regarding increased scrutiny under conditions that should be inconceivable to most people.

I am weary of the movement towards super agencies that is currently being pushed, where political appointees, unanswerable to the citizens, are able to create policy that can micro manage the population, and the economy.

I don't like political appointees either because they are chosen as rewards, not as skilled managers.

I would much prefer our country be a Parliamentary Meritocracy but that's not going to happen.

So, what do you propose instead of the current system? Obviously, more oversight but that's problematic since we are too politicized to choose neutral management. Look at the SCOTUS as a terrible example of what happens when you promote people who bring a political agenda to extreme power.

ocean515 said:

No, I think people need to pay their taxes. However, I have great concern over the IRS and the almost infinite power they have over the citizens it oversees.

My concern is hightened by the latest story regarding increased scrutiny under conditions that should be inconceivable to most people.

I am weary of the movement towards super agencies that is currently being pushed, where political appointees, unanswerable to the citizens, are able to create policy that can micro manage the population, and the economy.

Click to expand...

ocean515 said:

Consider this - the IRS has pretty much set themselves up to demand electronic filling of tax returns. In the not to distant future, electronic filling will be the only way they will accept returns. That means all those returns are digitized. It will take little more than a mouse click to run millions of returns through their "sniffer" programs, using criteria they themselves are in control of.

So if "tea party" is enough to "snif out" a group for additional scrutiny, why couldn't the same be done to filed returns?

You spent time an money to deal with your issue. What happens when others don't have that time or money? Do they stop trying to claim those legitimate deductions?

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Good afternoon, ocean515. :2wave:

This push to sell us on the merits of "paperless" everything is amazing! It sure makes their jobs easier. If only the government were as adept at repairing crumbling infrastructure, and our other big problems, as they are in making certain every cent that can be extracted from those that actually do pay taxes is known...mainly because the spending keeps increasing all the time and they need the money....our deficit wouldn't be the problem that it is. Gotta love those priorities! :shock: Whatever happened to the idea of revising the tax code, and where are the decent paying jobs so everyone gets to contribute to the Federal bottomless pit?

nota bene said:

Oh, but I was. I just wasn't standing in front of a TV and hearing this President directly, which I've specified twice now. Where were you when the infamous "Checkers" speech was delivered? During Watergate? Were you an adult standing in front of the TV and listening live?

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I wasn't an adult during Nixon's Presidency, but the tape I've seen...yeah, he was flat out lying.

Maybe not the Checkers speech, but other times yes.

specklebang said:

I don't like political appointees either because they are chosen as rewards, not as skilled managers.

I would much prefer our country be a Parliamentary Meritocracy but that's not going to happen.

So, what do you propose instead of the current system? Obviously, more oversight but that's problematic since we are too politicized to choose neutral management. Look at the SCOTUS as a terrible example of what happens when you promote people who bring a political agenda to extreme power.

Click to expand...

I don't think I'm qualified to offer a meaningful proposal about what our tax system should look like. Right now, not enough people are contributing to the federal government through income taxes. It makes no sence to have so many people excluded from an income tax burden. That "skin in the game" creates interest, and effort, on the part of those paying.

One thing I can write however, is the way we spend money needs to be completely changed. Base line budgeting has created more problems than any tax breaks that have taken place.

Erod said:

I was audited this year by the IRS for the first time in my life. Wonder if it had to do with my posts here?

Hmmm.

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Just because you might be paranoid,

Doesn't mean they're not out to get you!!:lamo

specklebang said:

I'm a veteran of 4 audits over my lifetime and the first one cost me money because I (sort of deliberately) expensed things that should have been carried as inventory. The other 3 audits resulted in no change in my taxes. I had one audit at my house/office, one at the IRS office and one where they actually spied on my business for a month before the "surprise audit" happened.

In every case, they were polite, cooperative and actually friendly. My last audit (the surprise one) I had my CPA deal with it because I was scared and it cost me $3K in CPA fees but no handcuffs.

It's a pain in the butt but no big deal unless you've been telling outrageous lies and can't cover ourself with adequate phony documents.

I think the computer selects the auditees, not individuals. What's going on now is the process for approving 501c (or whichever non-profit class political groups use) does get assigned to a live agent. I've been through this process but animal rescue licenses are the easiest to get while religion and politics are viewed more skeptically. Why any group that isn't helping someone gets to be tax free is incomprehensible to me. 99% of this froups set it up not because they give a **** but in order ti get suckers to donate money and pat themselves handsome salaries and contract out their work to friends and relatives.

The whole "non-profit" process is a total scam and if I am elected, it will be goodbye to "tax free non-profits" unless they can prove nobody is making money on the deal and that it is completely a labor of love.


(Specklebang for President 2016. Time to put a cat in the White House!)

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I'll vote for you so long as you name me

Dog czar :mrgreen:

I completely agree with you that our tax system is as ****ed up as Hogan's goat (do people still use that term?) and that everyone should pay taxes and money should be spent wisely.

Unfortunately, it will never happen that way. We are owned by very few and everything is for their benefit, not ours. We succeed in spite of, not because of, our leaders.

ocean515 said:

I don't think I'm qualified to offer a meaningful proposal about what our tax system should look like. Right now, not enough people are contributing to the federal government through income taxes. It makes no sence to have so many people excluded from an income tax burden. That "skin in the game" creates interest, and effort, on the part of those paying.

One thing I can write however, is the way we spend money needs to be completely changed. Base line budgeting has created more problems than any tax breaks that have taken place.

Click to expand...

polgara said:

Good afternoon, ocean515. :2wave:

This push to sell us on the merits of "paperless" everything is amazing! It sure makes their jobs easier. If only the government were as adept at repairing crumbling infrastructure, and our other big problems, as they are in making certain every cent that can be extracted from those that actually do pay taxes is known...mainly because the spending keeps increasing all the time and they need the money....our deficit wouldn't be the problem that it is. Gotta love those priorities! :shock: Whatever happened to the idea of revising the tax code, and where are the decent paying jobs so everyone gets to contribute to the Federal bottomless pit?

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Hi Polgara:2wave:

Of course, going paperless has nothing to do with making it easier to find imaginary needles in a haystack. How much smaller has the IRS become now that paperless is becoming the norm? Hmmm. I think the answer is ZERO smaller.

The tax code is rediculous, however, I'm almost of the opinion it should be left alone at this point. It seems every time someone tries to "mess" with it, it just get worse.

We need to broaden the tax base by getting more workers to pay federal income taxes. Of course that means putting more people to work, which IMO, is not a priority of the current administration.

You're barking up the right tree.

penn1954 said:

I'll vote for you so long as you name me

Dog czar :mrgreen:

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specklebang said:

I completely agree with you that our tax system is as ****ed up as Hogan's goat (do people still use that term?) and that everyone should pay taxes and money should be spent wisely.

Unfortunately, it will never happen that way. We are owned by very few and everything is for their benefit, not ours. We succeed in spite of, not because of, our leaders.

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Perhaps. I've learned over the course of my life that the world is far simpler than it appears. I don't believe in the "owned by the very few" thinking. That would be far to complex an undertaking.

However, IMO, what we are experiencing right now is a period where vast sums of money can be made by moving files from one side of a desk to another. We have companies worth billions that have never turned a profit. We have seen billionaires created whose products are nothing more that bits flowing through fiber optic cables.

I'm an old school manufacturer of products. I turn littles bits and pieces into bigger bits and pieces. I hire and pay good people to help me do that, and the economy of scale allows me to pay them a little bit for each thing they make. That allows them to earn a very good living. The longer they work for me, the more I pay them, because the wisdom they have becomes almost priceless after awhile.

Until we return to this way of thinking, we will continue to struggle. When it only takes a couple mouse clicks to make a million dollars, the income gap will continue to grow.

tererun said:

When people like Dick Cheney basically says screw you to congress and just doesn't testify.

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Or is it congress saying "screw you" to Cheney? They have no authority to have him come before them.

Anthony60 said:

Or is it congress saying "screw you" to Cheney? They have no authority to have him come before them.

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They can subpoena him the same way they can anyone else. He is bound by the same laws as other citizens.

I'm not sure what that has to do with this, but ...