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Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

There are thousands of college and NBA ball players over the past 12 years who would probably have given anything to have such "garbage" themselves.

Twelve years in a league where there's a max of 450 is not a career one could reasonably call "garbage".

Let's take just the tournament teams, and unlike the NBA lets assume they have the least amount of people on the bench possible with 12. That's 768 basketball players every year that would LOVE to have even probably a fourth of that "garbage" career.

Is he LeBron James? Of course not. That's like saying someone making $250k a year doing something they enjoy has a "garbage" career compared to a CEO making multi-millions. In the scope of reality, his career isn't garbage.

Hell, look at the team he's on. You want to know who on the Wizards has a better chance of having what you'd call a "garbage career". Jan Vessely. A guy who will probably be lucky if he gets more than 4 years in the NBA. He may have better stats...but you go team by team of GMs and ask which player they'd want on their team all contract things being equal and I'd bet money Collins gets the nod every time (unless that GM was ernie grumsfeld...sigh).

Or looking around the NBA...how about Luke Jackson. In his six combined seasons he didn't play in a seasons worth of games. Collins has six SEASONS where he played in more games than Jackson did his entire career. Luke's minutes played per game average was less than 10, Collins is over 20. Their PPG were similar, but Collins brought you half a block per game and about 3 rebounds per game more.

Yes...I do think referencing the guys stats can be reasonable and realistic in the discussion. When part of the conversation after he came out was concerning his chances of getting hired next year they NEED to be brought up. And it's entirely reasonable, when talking about historical and long lasting impact, that the level of player he was could come into play. But one must be at least honest and realistic about it.

He was no superstar, but his career is not one that should be considered "garbage" and labeling it as such lends immedietely questioning to the motives of those making such a statement.

The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds. There is a reason why no team kept him around. Look at his career numbers. They suck across the board. Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous. Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds. There is a reason why no team kept him around. Look at his career numbers. They suck across the board. Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous. Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.

He was consistently rated as one of the top defensive centers in the league. His shortcomings in other areas made it so he could never be a great starter, but he's been able to keep a job as an effective role player for ten years.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Every individual in the nation, no, but the nation as a whole singular unit, yes.



Since you continue to ask the question using the singular form of the word group, the answer remains "the Nation", which, as a unified group, finds it important. Individuals in that group might disagree, but the group as a whole considers the issue important.

Do you want me to talk about which groups within the nation find the issue important? If so, I can provide that answer for you as well.

If you are trying to come off as ignorant, job well done.

No do you think you can answer the question?

Who finds this story important?

Please don't say the nation because that is not true at all.

Also please try to not turn this into a pissing contest like you do with the other posters. They are so tiresome.

If you are not capable of answering the question please just say so.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

The guy stuck around because he was 7 ft. 250 pounds.

Which is irrelevant as to whether or not his career was "garbage".

IF he stuck around for 12 years because he was a good player to have in practice it still wouldn't be a "garbage" career. But this is a guy who actually got substantial playing time at points in his career and stuck around for more than a decade. Regardless of WHY you think that is, that's not a "garbage" career.

There is a reason why no team kept him around.

There's also a reason why teams kept signing him.

It's funny, you're changing your argument htough. First you're suggesting he had a "garbage" career. I counter that and all you do is go "but but but....it's because he's tall"

Now you can make a case that he is sooo much better than a bunch of guys not in the NBA, which is rediculous.

I did, I also compared him to former NBA players who had a MUCH worse career than him.

Compare him and his performance to almost any other NBA center who played significant minutes every game. He is a ****ty player.

If you're getting significant minutes every game for 12 years in the NBA, your CAREER isn't garbage.

I'd disagree with you if you were claiming his PLAY has been garbage all this time too...but that's different than saying his career is garbage, which is what you did. He's had a rather good career considering the average length of a career in the NBA is 5 years and he's more than doubled it.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

If you are trying to come off as ignorant, job well done.

.

Tucker Ignorant?

In much the same way as Sarah Palin is well-educated, I would say.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Ignorant?

In much the same way as Sarah Palin is well-educated, I would say.

Then you must be Reading different posts than I am.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

No, I am pointing out you are trying to argue over points of irrelevance.

Nonsense. Your argument is predicated on your ability to correctly identify and differentiate between pseudo-events and non-pseudo-events. When your "example" is not relevant, it becomes important to make that an issue, since in demonstrates an inability to make those differentiations which your position is based on.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

If you are trying to come off as ignorant, job well done.

I'm curious, how have you imagined that my answers implying a lack of knowledge?

No do you think you can answer the question?

I did, repeatedly. Just because you don't like the answer does not mean it was not given.

Who finds this story important?

That's a very different question than the one you asked.

People who dislike homosexuals and do not wish for homosexuality to be viewed as "normal" find it important (from an "society is going downhill" perspective) and people who want our society to be more accepting of homosexuals than it is so that homosexuality is viewed as perfectly normal find it important.

Those two groups comprise a significant majority of the US population, ergo, the nation finds it important.

Please don't say the nation because that is not true at all.

Just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't true. :shrug:

Also please try to not turn this into a pissing contest like you do with the other posters. They are so tiresome.

I find people denying reality to be tiresome.

And this can only become a pissing contest if you make it one and I decide to take part in it.


If you are not capable of answering the question please just say so.

Again, just because you don't like the answer does not mean it was not given. There's no reason to deny reality simply because you don't like it.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Nonsense. Your argument is predicated on your ability to correctly identify and differentiate between pseudo-events and non-pseudo-events. When your "example" is not relevant, it becomes important to make that an issue, since in demonstrates an inability to make those differentiations which your position is based on.

My example was relevant (I pointed to 9/11 to establish that) and you were attempting to argue over the number of events that fell within that group that were inherently relevant (as if that would change the fact that some issues are inherently relevant while others are not). The same with you trying to argue over what label you want to throw on the discussion, as if simply labeling something establishes actual relevance

It's what you always do: argue to argue, without much concern for what is being discussed. it's why I constantly point out that your behavior is akin to a child throwing a tantrum
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Nonsense. Your argument is predicated on your ability to correctly identify and differentiate between pseudo-events and non-pseudo-events. When your "example" is not relevant, it becomes important to make that an issue, since in demonstrates an inability to make those differentiations which your position is based on.

Your first statement killed your second one. Why would his position EVER be predicated on anything other than distinguishing the difference between pseudo-events, and non-pseudo-events? :)


Tim-
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Your first statement killed your second one.


Nonsense.


Why would his position EVER be predicated on anything other than distinguishing the difference between pseudo-events, and non-pseudo-events? :)


Tim-

Exactly my point. When he provides an example that is neither psuedo-event nor non-psuedo event, which is what he did by virtue of giving an example which was not an event at all, he demonstrates his inability to make such assessments. Since his entire argument can only be considered sound if he can demonstrate competence in this regard, demonstrated incompetence at making such assessments (incompetence which would be demonstrated, for example, by providing examples which fit neither category of assessment in any way shape or form), would demonstrate that his argument is unsound.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Nonsense.




Exactly my point. When he provides an example that is neither psuedo-event nor non-psuedo event, which is what he did by virtue of giving an example which was not an event at all, he demonstrates his inability to make such assessments. Since his entire argument can only be considered sound if he can demonstrate competence in this regard, demonstrated incompetence at making such assessments (incompetence which would be demonstrated, for example, by providing examples which fit neither category of assessment in any way shape or form), would demonstrate that his argument is unsound.

the entire point of my argument was that merely discussing an event doesn't lend it legitimacy (contrary to your original claim). If that is true, my ability to correctly name an example is irrelevant. Because the distinction still exists and your claim, that talking about it creates some form of legitimacy, would still be false (which it is)
 
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Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

well.....apparently this wasn't such an earth shattering, landscape of sports altering event after-all.....

after the initial hoop-la.....haven't heard a peep about it.

guess we'll just have to wait until the start of the next season and see if JC gets offered a contract.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

well.....apparently this wasn't such an earth shattering, landscape of sports altering event after-all.....

after the initial hoop-la.....haven't heard a peep about it.

guess we'll just have to wait until the start of the next season and see if JC gets offered a contract.

yep, seems more the media flash in the pan it looked like originally. That, or we are just bigots, based on nothing more than our willingness to question it's legitimacy as something more than that
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Just to add another positive voice into the crowd. Well done! Stamping out ignorance.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

the entire point of my argument was that merely discussing an event doesn't lend it legitimacy (contrary to your original claim).

So you agree that your arguments were invalid because being a "topic of national conversation" is more than "merely discussing it". :shrug:
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

well.....apparently this wasn't such an earth shattering, landscape of sports altering event after-all.....

It's too early to tell how landscape altering it will be. If it helps initiate a spate of active players coming out, it will be landscape altering. Just because the national conversation about it has died down doens't mean that it's effects are not still being played out.


guess we'll just have to wait until the start of the next season and see if JC gets offered a contract.

That will make a difference, because that'll be the real factor in the "active player" aspect of his coming out.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

So you agree that your arguments were invalid because being a "topic of national conversation" is more than "merely discussing it". :shrug:

you never even define how "a topic of national conversation" is anything more than a discussion, or why such translates to something having inherent value. You just slap a label there and expect us to merely accept it as a declaration of unquestionable fact

Usually tucker argument: I labeled it, therefore it is ...
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

you never even define how "a topic of national conversation" is anything more than a discussion, or why such translates to something having inherent value.

I have defined it like ten times over. Where did you get the idea that I have not done so?

Serious question: Do you know how adjectives work?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

So, the sports landscape is going to have curtains? Huh. How 'bout that.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

you never even define how "a topic of national conversation" is anything more than a discussion, or why such translates to something having inherent value. You just slap a label there and expect us to merely accept it as a declaration of unquestionable fact

Usually tucker argument: I labeled it, therefore it is ...

Clearly this generated discussion, and many athletes added their (mostly positive) thoughts, which will make it easier for others to come out. That's the entire point! In fact, there's a collection of almost 200 comments from pro athletes, some of them surprisingly thoughtful. It certainly is not just a 'media flash in the pan,' because this does matter, to many people. I guess you think it should not. Well since this doesn't apply to you, I really doubt he or anyone else gives a damn.

Soon they won't be talking about this in abstraction, about the hypothetical gay athlete, because it will be common, thanks to people like Collins. That you don't sense some immediate payoff does not mean that it was worthless/selfish/whatever negativity you want to attach to this guy.

I was just reading about a high school football player who came out. This kid talked about how he was run out of town by his former team, and credited Collins for having the courage to be open after the first time backfired so badly.

As i said before, if it helps one young person, which was a motivation for Collins if you actually read the article, then it succeeded. That's the value. If you can't understand that and still have some insatiable desire to crap all over the moment, then I do think you have a problem with the substance of what he is saying and not just the 'media agenda.'
 
tering the landscape of sports

Clearly this generated discussion, and many athletes added their (mostly positive) thoughts, which will make it easier for others to come out. That's the entire point! In fact, there's a collection of almost 200 comments from pro athletes, some of them surprisingly thoughtful. It certainly is not just a 'media flash in the pan,' because this does matter, to many people. I guess you think it should not. Well since this doesn't apply to you, I really doubt he or anyone else gives a damn.

Soon they won't be talking about this in abstraction, about the hypothetical gay athlete, because it will be common, thanks to people like Collins. That you don't sense some immediate payoff does not mean that it was worthless/selfish/whatever negativity you want to attach to this guy.

I was just reading about a high school football player who came out. This kid talked about how he was run out of town by his former team, and credited Collins for having the courage to be open after the first time backfired so badly.

As i said before, if it helps one young person, which was a motivation for Collins if you actually read the article, then it succeeded. That's the value. If you can't understand that and still have some insatiable desire to crap all over the moment, then I do think you have a problem with the substance of what he is saying and not just the 'media agenda.'

Where did I claim it was selfish? My point is that it's unlikely to have much impact beyond the media circus.
 
Re: tering the landscape of sports

Where did I claim it was selfish? My point is that it's unlikely to have much impact beyond the media circus.

I was just listing various negative comments I've seen. Probably the first to actually compete will be Robbie Rogers, this summer, and in turn that will help someone else and so on. That's the idea anyway.
 
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