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Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sports

Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Hicup said:
Well there goes his career.. But seriously, who cares? :)


Tim-
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This supposed non-issue has over 550 posts already. Obviously a lot of people care...some care a little too much, me thinks.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

calamity said:
This supposed non-issue has over 550 posts already. Obviously a lot of people care...some care a little too much, me thinks.
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It caused him to respond within minutes even though he has stated that he hates basketball. He hates the sport being discussed in the thread.

So there's no doubt, he definitely cares a great deal about the other aspect of the topic. There's no other logical explanation for his presence in the thread.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
Aside from the fact that it's correct, what's wrong about it?
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Well, the guy who coined the term would disagree


I see that you have taken all of your understanding of what it is like to be a gay person in America and applied it to your decision to arbitrarily deny reality.
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No, I am actually pointing to observations that undermine your claim.

PS are you gay?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

calamity said:
This supposed non-issue has over 550 posts already. Obviously a lot of people care...some care a little too much, me thinks.
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as I pointed out, people simply talking about something doesn't lend it significance.

Might this be a significant event? Sure, but talking about it doesn't actually establish it as so.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Dr. Chuckles said:
Well, the guy who coined the term would disagree
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I don't think you can speak for him.




No, I am actually pointing to observations that undermine your claim.
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that's your problem. you thought you coulod figure out what would undermine my claim. You clearly cannot do this, since what you cited does not do this.

PS are you gay?
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Why would that matter?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
Well its both actually. And Collins is elite at both of them.
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Collins, in respect to the NBA, is not "elite" at anything. Much like I said to oscar when he was talking about blocking shots and playing defense when defending...someone whose ELITE at making people pay when they come to the basket and/or afraid generally aren't the last person on the bench. They are people playing significant minutes as a starter or routine rotational guy.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Dr. Chuckles said:
as I pointed out, people simply talking about something doesn't lend it significance.
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As I pointed out, there are no logical reasons to actively seek out a discussion about a topic that one does not care for.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
Collins, in respect to the NBA, is not "elite" at anything. Much like I said to oscar when he was talking about blocking shots and playing defense when defending...someone whose ELITE at making people pay when they come to the basket and/or afraid generally aren't the last person on the bench. They are people playing significant minutes as a starter or routine rotational guy.
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He was very good at what he did, and bad at just about everything else. Synergy did consistently rank him as a top 5 defensive center in the league, so I would say that's elite. It did not make up for his faults in other areas enough for him to be an everyday starter or top bench player.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
Pseudo-events are not the "topic of national conversation", they are entertaining tidbits that get a laugh around the watercooler. This is not a psuedo-event.
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And it seems like you're moving the goal posts. You first define things as "huge deals" if they are a "topic of national conversation". Then when someone rightly points out that there are a large number of things that become the "topic of national conversation" that one could make a case are absolutely not "huge deals" you back track. Regardless of whether you feel this is or is not a pseudo-event, someone called you out on your asinine logic and you back peddle as if THAT person is wrong.

You want to expand upon your definition and change your earlier statements then that's your right...but don't change the goal posts and act like you're the superior one when someone calls you on it.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
I don't think you can speak for him.
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Of course not, the book he published on the subject, sitting on my desk, does

that's your problem. you thought you coulod figure out what would undermine my claim. You clearly cannot do this, since what you cited does not do this.
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Tucker, you made assertions, I pointed out there were problems with those assertions supporting your larger claim


Why would that matter?
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because you wrote "I see that you have taken all of your understanding of what it is like to be a gay person in America". If you're questioning my ability to speak on the topic because I am not gay, one would hope that you are gay, since you are speaking on the topic, as well.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
and no one has said there isn't. but guys like him are not a rare breed. that makes his chances at getting picked up at 34 a lot less likely.

Bolded:

1. In the world of professional sports...he is a "nobody". until this announcement relatively few people outside of his immediate circle of coaches and fans even knew who he was.

2. look at his stats. he is a good player and better than 99% of the population but by comparison to other NBA players, he is terrible
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Still denigrating his stats I see.....and you still can't explain why this is significant.

Hint: His stats are irrelevant to his coming out.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Anagram said:
He was very good at what he did, and bad at just about everything else. Synergy did consistently rank him as a top 5 defensive center in the league, so I would say that's elite. It did not make up for his faults in other areas enough for him to be an everyday starter or top bench player.
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all of which makes him useful in only a very limited capacity. which is why, IMESHO, the chances of him being picked up next season were slim.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
As I pointed out, there are no logical reasons to actively seek out a discussion about a topic that one does not care for.
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right, individuals might talk about kim K's vag, and they might even view it as significant (for no other reason than they need material for their spank bank). But that doesn't lend any real or credible significance to the thing, as we are using the terms *here*. Which is something of importance beyond mere gossip and jack material.

Basically, you're trying to equivocate
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
Still denigrating his stats I see.....and you still can't explain why this is significant.

Hint: His stats are irrelevant to his coming out.
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they are only relevent in the context that, his coming out is not as big of a "landscape altering" event as it would have been had it been a more well known, or younger, or better player who had done so.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
all of which makes him useful in only a very limited capacity. which is why, IMESHO, the chances of him being picked up next season were slim.
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It's a limited role, but it's one most teams have a need for, and he's one of the best at it. It's why I think he would've been picked up next season.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Dr. Chuckles said:
as I pointed out, people simply talking about something doesn't lend it significance.

Might this be a significant event? Sure, but talking about it doesn't actually establish it as so.
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Who would decide if this is or is not "significant"?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Tucker Case said:
You don't like basketball, you don't care about him being gay, so why are you worrying about his motives?
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I'm not really. It's just that I doubt that some mediocre player from a dying sport is going to have any lasting impact on sports. People are jumping up and down claiming some huge impact already, but when you ask them about it they can't actually quantify the impact.

Also, it's 2013, it's time to stop being shocked that there are gay people in the world.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
all of which makes him useful in only a very limited capacity. which is why, IMESHO, the chances of him being picked up next season were slim.
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A limited capacity that almost EVERY team employees. Statements suggesting he was definitely getting signed are as ridiculous as those suggesting it's a near certainty he wouldn't be signed. You could haggle a bit on which was the more LIKELY scenario, but in reality they're both relatively likely.

Most teams have a tall veteran bench guy that fouls and plays D. Go look up the name Joe Klein and see where he played in 1997 with 12 years in the league. Or where Robert Parish played in 96 with 20 years in the league. Or where James Edwards played in 95 with 18 years in the league. Note their stats as well when you do it.

Many never heard of two of those players, and probably didn't know the one they did recognize played that long in perhaps unless they were a fan of the team....but teams have a need for that mold of player, so their "limited capacity" doesn't matter, it fills a need.

Now that said...Jason Collins isn't the only person that fills that need and as he ages there's more and more likelihood that he's not the one tapped to fill it for one of the teams. But the chances that he ARE tapped aren't "slim". They're not great either, but they're not slim.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

OscarB63 said:
they are only relevent in the context that, his coming out is not as big of a "landscape altering" event as it would have been had it been a more well known, or younger, or better player who had done so.
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I asked this earlier, was Rosa Parks a "significant" person before she refused to sit in the back of the bus? This is not about his previous stats, this is about how his action changes how society (and in this case the US sporting viewer and players) accepts homosexuality.

Clearly, the reaction shows how gays are accepted among members of this group.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
I'm not really. It's just that I doubt that some mediocre player from a dying sport is going to have any lasting impact on sports. People are jumping up and down claiming some huge impact already, but when you ask them about it they can't actually quantify the impact.
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If you made me put money on it, I'd say the biggest likely impact from this is that the story helps to start plucking the strands that eventually leads to a better known player in or near their prime coming out and being the standard bearer for the notion/movement who goes on to be viewed as the "watershed" player.

And there's nothing wrong with that and if anything that's a credit to Collins if he does inspire such a thing. But I see that as a much larger probability than himself being that "watershed" moment player.
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
And it seems like you're moving the goal posts. You first define things as "huge deals" if they are a "topic of national conversation". Then when someone rightly points out that there are a large number of things that become the "topic of national conversation" that one could make a case are absolutely not "huge deals" you back track.
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False. I have been very consistent in pointing out that things which are not huge deals do not become "topics of national conversation". The issue here is that there seems to be a significant confusion on what is or is not a topic of national conversation. I believe that a topic of national conversation is very different than something which is known of or mentioned in passing nationwide.

The really important words there are "topic", "national", and "conversation". Something which is mentioned in passing for a laugh, such as Kim K's vagshot, doesn't inspire a national conversation not is it a national conversation, even if it is occurring all over the nation.

The only things which can inspire a true national conversation are things which have some degree of import in real life.

So, no, the goal posts were not moved. I merely decided to not cherry pick the words and make them mean something which they do not.

So, if you want to discuss what constitutes a national conversation, go right ahead, but don't make up some bull**** about me moving the goal posts when I did nothing of the sort.
 
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Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Gimmesometruth said:
I asked this earlier, was Rosa Parks a "significant" person before she refused to sit in the back of the bus? This is not about his previous stats, this is about how his action changes how society (and in this case the US sporting viewer and players) accepts homosexuality.

Clearly, the reaction shows how gays are accepted among members of this group.
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You're not equating Collins to Rosa Parks, are you?
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Zyphlin said:
A limited capacity that almost EVERY team employees. Statements suggesting he was definitely getting signed are as ridiculous as those suggesting it's a near certainty he wouldn't be signed. You could haggle a bit on which was the more LIKELY scenario, but in reality they're both relatively likely.

Most teams have a tall veteran bench guy that fouls and plays D. Go look up the name Joe Klein and see where he played in 1997 with 12 years in the league. Or where Robert Parish played in 96 with 20 years in the league. Or where James Edwards played in 95 with 18 years in the league. Note their stats as well when you do it.

Many never heard of two of those players, and probably didn't know the one they did recognize played that long in perhaps unless they were a fan of the team....but teams have a need for that mold of player, so their "limited capacity" doesn't matter, it fills a need.

Now that said...Jason Collins isn't the only person that fills that need and as he ages there's more and more likelihood that he's not the one tapped to fill it for one of the teams. But the chances that he ARE tapped aren't "slim". They're not great either, but they're not slim.
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I guess it all depends on what your definition of "slim" is. As an eternal pessimist, anything below about 65% is slim ;)
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Ikari said:
You're not equating Collins to Rosa Parks, are you?
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yep........
 
Re: Jason Collins (NBA Center) announces that he is gay, altering the landscape of sp

Dr. Chuckles said:
right, individuals might talk about kim K's vag
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And boom goes the dynamite. Its individuals, not a national conversation. Thank you for admitting that you were wrong. I like to pay attention to the words that are present. Why do you ignore them?

And Zyph, What Dr C did was move the goal posts. See how he moved form "topic of national conversation" to "individuals" without acknowledging the key difference between those things?
 
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