Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83,846]

ThePlayDrive · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
The Russians don't consider it prejudiced, they consider a practical observation. So do I. I don't care if you think I am prejudiced, I am prejudiced against Chechens, VERY, they EARNED my enmity. It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit to see the lot of them burn in hell.

Meh, it's prejudiced. It's funny because these guys' Chechen uncle came on and completely denounced the attacks. Even the other Chechen family members who think they're innocent denounced the attacks. I'm sure there are plenty more Chechens who would denounce the attacks. And yet here we are with people denigrating all Chechen people because the bombers happened to be Chechen.

It's amazing. It's just so amazing and so disheartening to see people fall into the very trap that they would be expected to fall into: generalizing and condemning an entire people in response to the actions of two. It's so weak. It's just so very weak to fall into that trap. You and others may be comfortable with such prejudice, but I won't ever be. I'm better than that, I'm smarter than that and I always will be.

PirateMk1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Taylor said:
Exactly why this is making more upset with each hour that goes by. This is just embarrassing.

I feel for law enforcement on this one. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are doing the best they can.

j-mac · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

clownboy said:
In the movies, yes. In real life, rarely.

Rare sure, in this case apparently so....

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Unitedwestand13 said:
if he had the upper hand he and his brother would have been planting another pressure cooker bomb somewhere in boston. instead one is dead and the other is running for his life from the law.

Again, have they found him? Do they even have a clue where he is? No, they don't.

soot · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

apdst said:
A city where he has ZERO help, from anyone and no one has seen hide, nor hair of him.

Do we know that for sure?

polgara · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

humbolt said:
Don't tell me Arnold was really the governor of CA. I know it was just a cover. He's in Boston right now, with that grenade launcher, ready to make that scumbag pay.

He did say, 'I'll be back! You just gotta believe Arnold!

clownboy · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
I feel for law enforcement on this one. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are doing the best they can.

They're saying it as it is right now on CNN. The police don't know what is booby trapped, if anything.

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
I feel for law enforcement on this one. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are doing the best they can.

What's embarressing, is the resources that are being thrown at effort; the entire metro area is on lockdown. I mean, fire trucks, armored HMMV's, blackhawks?

The biggest question is, how long are they willing to keep the city locked down?

donsutherland1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Three points concerning commentary in this thread:

First, we know little about the actual circumstances at the time the suspect escaped last night. What is known is that the massive manhunt in the Watertown area began afterward, not beforehand. The level of manpower in that area was nowhere near where it is right now at the time the suspect escaped.

Second, it remains to be seen whether he got out of the Watertown or greater Boston area or is currently in hiding in Watertown/greater Boston area. The search will require additional time. It is difficult and dangerous. A careful approach needs to be pursued. IMO, Law Enforcement should not be compelled to turn the search into some kind of "race" against the clock. They should take the time required to get the job done safely and successfully. The lives and wellbeing of the people living in the affected area and those participating in the search vastly outweigh the inconvenience the methodical pace might be causing others. A rushed approach could lead to errors or even harm to residents/Law Enforcement personnel.

Third, even as it has garnered unprecedented visibility, the social media has actually been a poor source of information in some critical aspects of the unfolding events. It has been a source of erroneous claims about arrests and a hostage situation (some of which were posted here by members who relied on its accounts).

Some posts that were drawn from the rampant speculation on the social media to highlight the speculative nature of that content:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...atertown-boston-w-83-a-11.html#post1061709453
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...atertown-boston-w-83-a-11.html#post1061709458
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...atertown-boston-w-83-a-11.html#post1061709469
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...atertown-boston-w-83-a-38.html#post1061710750

Those posts are not the fault of members. They reflect the actual questionable reliability of the sources of the information on which they relied.

Social media is not vetted for accuracy. It provides raw information of questionable quality, some good, some not good. There is a highly speculative element involved where twitter feeds, etc., have distributed conclusions that simply could not be drawn from the combination of few facts and great uncertainty involved.

In short, one should be extremely cautious about assuming that tweeted information or references to information taken from police scanners (often missing the underlying context for those simply hearing it to properly understand what is actually being described) is accurate. If or when the search is concluded, Law Enforcement will provide an account.

PirateMk1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
Meh, it's prejudiced. It's funny because these guys' uncle came on and completely denounced the attacks. Even the family members who think they're innocent denounched the attacks. I'm sure there are plenty more Chechens who would denounce the attacks. And yet here we are with people denigrating all Chechen people because the bombers happened to be Chechen.

It's amazing. It's just so amazing and so disheartening to see people fall into the very trap that they would be expected to fall into: generalizing and condemning an entire people in response to the actions of two. It's so weak. It's just so very weak to fall into that trap. You and others may be comfortable with such prejudice, but I won't ever be. I'm better than that, I'm smarter than that and I always will be.

You didn't read my WHOLE quote. I have history with the Chechen fighters who came over to the sandbox and helped hunt me and my comrades. I have lost some very good friends to the bastards. The bastards EARNED my enmity. Screw them and theirs. If all of them died tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. Might even dance a jig.

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

soot said:
Do we know that for sure?

No, we don't. There are already Chechens saying these cats were set up, so it's not at all impossible that Chechens living in Boston have helped this dude hide from the cops. His aunt was on the tube earlier claiming that she's not convinced that they're guilty.

They need to identify as many Chechens as possible and search their homes and businesses, first.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
You didn't read my WHOLE quote. I have history with the Chechen fighters who came over to the sandbox and helped hunt me and my comrades. I have lost some very good friends to the bastards. The bastards EARNED my enmity. Screw them and theirs. If all of them died tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. Might even dance a jig.

No, some Chechens earned your enmity. Others did not. What you've done in generalize an entire group of people because of what some of them did to you and your friends. It's sad. It's incredibly sad and adds nothing but more irrational hate into the world. If you have a problem with the people who hurt you, fine. But to hold an entire ethnicity responsible for the actions of a particular group with in them is nonsensical, at best. I am so sick of people acting like its rational to hate entire ethnicities and races because some people within that race or ethnicity did horrible things. It's not rational. That's the kind of irrationality that gets people killed.

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
Not only that they have to check for explosive devices which slows things up immensely even more.

Yeah, but I'm betting that they're probably wasting time with too much caution.

I think they're wasting time going door-to-door, too. Tommy O'Malley probably isn't helping this dude...lol Now, Vlademir Drijdnich? They need to have already knocked on his door.

Taylor · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

clownboy said:
even reducing it to "drives right past you", which of course is an oversimplification, he could have a trunk full of explosives that would take out the block.

You really think that was a possibility? You think that they may have had the capability to take out an entire block, but chose to do a couple of pressure cooker bombs on Monday instead, holding on to the big one just in case they found themselves corned and unable to take out two or three dozen cops with their rifles and pipe bombs - as a backup plan they could jump into the car and if the police stopped them THEN set off the big one.

PirateMk1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

apdst said:
What's embarressing, is the resources that are being thrown at effort; the entire metro area is on lockdown. I mean, fire trucks, armored HMMV's, blackhawks?

The biggest question is, how long are they willing to keep the city locked down?

Well the longer they do the more damage THEY themselves do. Its a balancing act I think. I don't think they want to go past tomorrow evening or they start accumulating more problems. I disagree with donsutherland1 on this one, speed is of essence.

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
No, some Chechens earned your enmity. Others did not. What you've done in general an entire group of people because of what some of them did to you and your friends. It's sad. It's incredibly sad and adds nothing but more irrational hate into the world. If you have a problem with the people who hurt you, fine. But to hold an entire ethnicity responsible for the actions of a particular group with in them is nonsensical, at best. I am so sick of people acting like its rational to hate entire ethnicity and races because some people within that race or ethnicity did horrible things. It's not rational. That's the kind of irrationality that gets people killed.

I'm purdy sure that ALL the Chechen fighters, that went to the sandbox, have earned his enmity.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

donsutherland1 said:
Third, even as it has garnered unprecedented visibility, the social media has actually been a poor source of information in some critical aspects of the unfolding events. It has been a source of erroneous claims about arrests and a hostage situation (some of which were posted here by members who relied on its accounts).

Some posts that were drawn from the rampant speculation on the social media to highlight the speculative nature of that content:

[cut for space]

Those posts are not the fault of members. They reflect the actual questionable reliability of the sources of the information on which they relied.

Social media is not vetted for accuracy. It provides raw information of questionable quality, some good, some not good. There is a highly speculative element involved where twitter feeds, etc., have distributed conclusions that simply could not be drawn from the combination of few facts and great uncertainty involved.

In short, one should be extremely cautious about assuming that tweeted information or references to information taken from police scanners (often missing the underlying context for those simply hearing it to properly understand what is actually being described) is accurate. If or when the search is concluded, Law Enforcement will provide an account.

From what I've seen, social media has been just as reliable as regular media. Some of the info has turned out to be accurate while some of it has turned out to be inaccurate. The same goes with the mainstream media. Today, people on social networks reported that the suspect was in custody. Two days ago CNN did the same thing. I haven't really seen a significant difference in the quality of reporting.

apdst · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

PirateMk1 said:
Well the longer they do the more damage THEY themselves do. Its a balancing act I think. I don't think they want to go past tomorrow evening or they start accumulating more problems. I disagree with donsutherland1 on this one, speed is of essence.

I believe they're approaching the point where it's going to be time to completely pull back and let this dude relax and show himself.

As long as the only people on the streets are cops, this guy is staying put; unless he's already skipped town and ain't lookin' back.

haymarket · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

apdst said:
No, we don't. There are already Chechens saying these cats were set up, so it's not at all impossible that Chechens living in Boston have helped this dude hide from the cops. His aunt was on the tube earlier claiming that she's not convinced that they're guilty.

They need to identify as many Chechens as possible and search their homes and businesses, first.

Sounds like the motive that was behind the infamous Mitchell Palmer raids of 1919.

clownboy · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Taylor said:
You really think that was a possibility? You think that they may have had the capability to take out an entire block, but chose to do a couple of pressure cooker bombs on Monday instead, holding on to the big one just in case they found themselves corned and unable to take out two or three dozen cops with their rifles and pipe bombs - as a backup plan they could jump into the car and if the police stopped them THEN set off the big one.

Once again, these are 19 and 20 year olds. One has already suicided by cop, I'm pretty sure that wasn't part of the plan. The kid is flying by the seat of his pants and he's obviously not full of good judgement right now.

Also, there's mention of a possible suicide vest being associated with the brother on CNN right now.

PirateMk1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
No, some Chechens earned your enmity. Others did not. What you've done in general an entire group of people because of what some of them did to you and your friends. It's sad. It's incredibly sad and adds nothing but more irrational hate into the world. If you have a problem with the people who hurt you, fine. But to hold an entire ethnicity responsible for the actions of a particular group with in them is nonsensical, at best. I am so sick of people acting like its rational to hate entire ethnicity and races because some people within that race or ethnicity did horrible things. It's not rational. That's the kind of irrationality that gets people killed.

Actually its very rational. Their community assisted them in hunting and killing my friends and hunting myself. They provided aid and comfort. They fed and clothed and assisted and provided resources to the vermin. They are as culpable if not MORE so. Hate? Not so much. I am way past that. I don't feel anything for them.

Samhain · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

Its a wonder how this guy has stayed out of sight for so long with the police out in such force. Are they even sure he is there?

j-mac · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
From what I've seen, social media has been just as reliable as regular media. Some of the info has turned out to be accurate while some of it has turned out to be inaccurate. The same goes with the mainstream media. Today, people on social networks reported that the suspect was in custody. Two days ago CNN did the same thing. I haven't really seen a significant difference in the quality of reporting.

Wall to wall coverage, and a 24/7 outlet drives this...Too much time, so much speculation.

donsutherland1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

ThePlayDrive said:
From what I've seen, social media has been just as reliable as regular media. Some of the info has turned out to be accurate while some of it has turned out to be inaccurate. The same goes with the mainstream media. Today, people on social networks reported that the suspect was in custody. Two days ago CNN did the same thing. I haven't really seen a significant difference in the quality of reporting.

You're right about CNN's reporting in particular early on. I pointed to social media, because there seems to be an expectation that one can learn sooner and just as accurately about developments from there. Instead, some info. is good, some is not. As with any major story, one should apply a dose of caution to early reports (traditional media or social media) until there is confirmation or corroboration. This is a fluid story and a lot of information is incomplete or yet to be determined.

PirateMk1 · Apr 19, 2013

Re: Gunfire, explosions reported around Dexter Street in Watertown. (Boston)[W: 83]

j-mac said:
Wall to wall coverage, and a 24/7 outlet drives this...Too much time, so much speculation.

So true. And I am guilty of listening to it.:shrug: