• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

No. I believe the American and Britsh conservatives implemented a radical rightwing social experiment and we are living with the consequences. I say "consquences" because that experiment wasn't merely a failure, it was a national disaster for both countries................

I guess I'm behind here. To what "radical rightwing social experiment" are you referring/
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

I guess I'm behind here. To what "radical rightwing social experiment" are you referring/

The idea that you could take a late 20th century world power and magically transport it back 50 years in time foreign policy wise, 200 years back in time legally, and 3,000 years back in time socially.........................
 
Now where did i say that? Can you see it anywhere at all?

If so quote the passage and get back to me, okay?

It seems you've spent too much time in a northern pub.

The meaning of your post was quite clear.

And at least when I speak about northern pubs, I know what I'm talking about. They tend to be populated by hard working, hard drinking men. As I said, stick to London if you ever visit. You'll be much more comfortable there.
 
Last edited:
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Weren't the British people quite happy in the 1950's, with the victory over the Nazis and all that hope for the future? In fact 'the American Right' didn't vote for Mrs.Thatcher, the British people did.

Do you believe Pol Pot was seeking a return to the 1950's for the Cambodian people?

No, actually they weren't very happy in the 1950's. They still had food rationing from the Second World War for part of it. It's hard to be deliriously happy when you still have food rationing.
 
**** the Catholics sympathy the protestants have been their for hundreds of years and have rights as well, if they don't like it they are welcome to move south of the border.

Now this is complete ignorance. Protestants have their own little country cause called Northern Ireland because their rights and "way of life" were protected by the British Government. Instead of turning over the WHOLE island to the Irish people.. partition was done and led to another 80 years of favoritism towards Protestants. Reality is they have a right to move back to Scotland as well. They also have a right to finally accept they are Irish after spending 400 years in Ireland and being on their 8th, 9th and 10th generation of being born in Ireland. But nah.. they are "special" people.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

The scars are too deep?

Are we dealing with juveniles here? Adults tend to move on, rather than whining and complaining a generation later.

LOL are you freaking serious? What planet do you live on?
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

No, actually they weren't very happy in the 1950's. They still had food rationing from the Second World War for part of it. It's hard to be deliriously happy when you still have food rationing.

Not to mention the failing Empire. People tend to forget, that people even during Thatcher and even some today in the conservative party, think that the UK is as powerful and important as it was during Empire times and try to project this.

It takes time for people in general and more often longer for the political elite, to understand that the glory days are over. It happens to every major power. It happened to the Soviets/Russians, it is happening to the US now, and will happen to the Chinese and so on. It is how things work.

But there are always, mostly right wing but not exclusive, that reach out and try to rekindle old glories for political gain. Lets look at a few.

Al Q, has in part been driven by the myth of Al Andalus and the glory days of the Islamic world. They use this myth as a political recruitment tool to pull in lesser educated peoples to their cause. Especially AL Q in Northern Africa have used this tactic.

The UK and Trident. Just last week Cameron and the Tories justified spending billions on a nuclear weapon and pushed for an upgrade that could cost trillions.. based on the supposed threat from North Korea. By linking the two, Cameron tried to use the imperial days power and reach tactic and totally glossed over the fact for North Korea to reach the UK with a nuclear missile, it would have to send that missile over Russia or the US. But in Cameron's mind and that of his party, holding on to expensive nuclear weapons in a world where there are next to non threats, shows the same strength as the British Empire.. the glory days of the Conservative Party.

Or look at Italy where Berloscloony and some of his allies have attempted to use everything from the Roman empire to the "good" days under Mussolini to rally the faithful and to project an Italy of the past, where Italy was strong and powerful.

Or look at white racists and neo-nazies that use Nazi Germany as some sort of glory years to justify their hatred and political views.

Or many Eastern European countries longing for the so called good old days of communist rule.

I could go on with examples in the middle east and elsewhere, but that will get this thread moved to the gulag of the middle east forum :)

Point is, some parties and politicians and people tend to view the past in a very narrow viewpoint and tend to only remember the good things, but gloss over the bad.
 
Now this is complete ignorance. Protestants have their own little country cause called Northern Ireland because their rights and "way of life" were protected by the British Government. Instead of turning over the WHOLE island to the Irish people.. partition was done and led to another 80 years of favoritism towards Protestants. Reality is they have a right to move back to Scotland as well. They also have a right to finally accept they are Irish after spending 400 years in Ireland and being on their 8th, 9th and 10th generation of being born in Ireland. But nah.. they are "special" people.

its not ignorance I just don't agree with you ;). Both my uncles served in N.Ireland during the 70's and 80's and sweat and blood of British soldiers has secured Northern Ireland for generations to come, what's done is done.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

The scars are too deep?

Are we dealing with juveniles here? Adults tend to move on, rather than whining and complaining a generation later.

or people who lost their livelihood and their communities.....
 
its not ignorance I just don't agree with you ;). Both my uncles served in N.Ireland during the 70's and 80's and sweat and blood of British soldiers has secured Northern Ireland for generations to come, what's done is done.

No, it's ignorance, British ignorance. Your uncles were but cannon fodder in a world in which Northern Ireland will and never can be at peace. The Troubles were nothing but a 30 year period of almost 900 years of Irish resistance to British occupation. In the future Demographics suck for Protestants. They only equate to 48% of the population today, a drop of 5% since 2001. Catholics now equate to 45% of the population gaining 1% since 2001. No longer does the Union Jack fly over Belfast city hall daily. And it's now Protestants rioting, protesting and committing violence in a half-assed attempt to stay relevant in the changing world. Noami Long took Peter Robinson's seat in East Belfast which had been a Unionist strong hold for over 100 years.
 
Last edited:
Now this is complete ignorance. Protestants have their own little country cause called Northern Ireland because their rights and "way of life" were protected by the British Government. Instead of turning over the WHOLE island to the Irish people.. partition was done and led to another 80 years of favoritism towards Protestants. Reality is they have a right to move back to Scotland as well. They also have a right to finally accept they are Irish after spending 400 years in Ireland and being on their 8th, 9th and 10th generation of being born in Ireland. But nah.. they are "special" people.

No, like the Falklanders, Northern Irish Protestants have a right to decide on their constitutional future. They have demonstrated a desire to remain British.

I try to stay classy.

You failed. Calling for someone to "burn in hell" is not classy.

And Anglo-Irish Agreement leading to peace is utter bs.

I didn't claim that an agreement made in 1985 led directly to another signed 13 years later. Paved the way is still correct - it showed that the British Government would consider ways to make peace including committing "to promoting legislation for a united Ireland if a majority is in favour."

-- The Sunningdale Agreement of 1973 was the stepping stone. Council of Ireland was proposed in that Agreement and before that, it was the Government of Ireland Act of 1920. Sunningdale Agreement collapsed because of pro-Unionist who backed it withdrew support because of Article 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution wasn't up for discussion. Guess what the difference between Sunningdale Agreement and Good Friday Agreement is? Ireland revised it's Constitution giving up all claim to Northern Ireland.

You can thank John Hume for Sunningdale and Anglo-Irish Agreements and for his early work in the Good Friday Agreement.

Btw.. the position of the British Government during the Anglo-Irish Agreement was to ignore Republicans both in Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Downing Street Declaration had more impact. It wasn't until President Clinton threw his weight behind "peace" did anything change. It was the US that gave Visas to IRA leadership (Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness) to come visit the White House to have talks which made the UK look like eejits for banning people they were "talking" with from even coming to London to talk about peace. It was President Clinton who sent George Mitchell to head the decommission process, visited Northern Ireland, he made the calls to ease the tension after the Dockland bombings and encourage all sides to agree to the Good Friday Agreement.

Yawn, I'm aware of the history - having served there as a British soldier in the 80's. You also leave out that for the Good Friday agreement - the British Government also repealed the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

England would lose Forties, Shetland, Moray and Northern Scotland Coast so in reality that's like 80% plus of the Northern Sea Oil that England has rights to.

And you're aware Shetland Islanders might claim their 95% from Scotland if they were to secede?

Scotland’s oil-rich Northern Isles are threatening to destroy Alex Salmond’s economic case for independence by warning they might not accept rule from Edinburgh.

The Orkney and Shetland islands could remain part of the UK if the rest of Scotland votes to separate, according to a report submitted by their MSPs to the Government. Link.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

im not so convinced she destroyed british manufacturing or british self reliance as somuch the original labour party destroyed it.


ive known quite a few brits,most bon and raised in england then moved to the us in the 70's.most flat out refuse to buy anything british made because they believe they are utter piles of crap.

most british cars ive seen in the seventies had the quality of something crafted by a drunk and the technology of amodelt.

thatcher didnt kill british manufacturing,the labour party id.before thatcher came in,the british govt kept subsidizing companies that were failing because they were producing extremely poor quality products while paying top dollars to their employyees.by the late seventies englands economy became stagnant,and it was evident that if the labour party had continues,the british economy would have fully collapsed.

the lack of competition came as the country protected failing companies,allowing them to fail even further while being protected,until the point they were socialized,meaning they never became efficient,never were able to handle free trade,and were only good if all other competition was eliminated and they were the only companies available.

Well said - and nicely brings us back to Thatcher's legacy and whether she is to blame for the socialist / communist dreams and aspirations of some during the 1970's.
 
No, it's ignorance, British ignorance. Your uncles were but cannon fodder in a world in which Northern Ireland will and never can be at peace. The Troubles were nothing but a 30 year period of almost 900 years of Irish resistance to British occupation. In the future Demographics suck for Protestants. They only equate to 48% of the population today, a drop of 5% since 2001. Catholics now equate to 45% of the population gaining 1% since 2001. No longer does the Union Jack fly over Belfast city hall daily. And it's now Protestants rioting, protesting and committing violence in a half-assed attempt to stay relevant in the changing world. Noami Long took Peter Robinson's seat in East Belfast which had been a Unionist strong hold for over 100 years.

its ignorance to ignore the wishes of the majority and centuries of established settlements.
 
No, like the Falklanders, Northern Irish Protestants have a right to decide on their constitutional future. They have demonstrated a desire to remain British.

I never said they shouldn't. But they hijacked 4 counties of which are actually Nationalist. You know Tyrone, Armagh, Fermanagh and Londonderry.. areas which British soldiers had a hell of a time "beating" down the population. But I will get to this later for a more indepth discussion on how you are wrong.. as there was no Constitutional involved and how a lonely it must be to know the British Government was willing to sell out those very Northern Irish during WW2.



You failed. Calling for someone to "burn in hell" is not classy.

It is when I could have used much harsher terms.






And you're aware Shetland Islanders might claim their 95% from Scotland if they were to secede?

They won't claim independence. They want more bang for their buck and they'll go to the side that offers them the most.
 
I never said they shouldn't. But they hijacked 4 counties of which are actually Nationalist. You know Tyrone, Armagh, Fermanagh and Londonderry.. areas which British soldiers had a hell of a time "beating" down the population. But I will get to this later for a more indepth discussion on how you are wrong.. as there was no Constitutional involved and how a lonely it must be to know the British Government was willing to sell out those very Northern Irish during WW2.

First this is a thread about Margaret Thatcher, second of course I'm wrong if I mentioned there was a Constitution - what I mentioned was a "constitutional right to choose their own future."

Third, if you can stick to Thatcher in a thread about Thatcher, that would be great.

-- It is when I could have used much harsher terms.

Yawn.

-- They won't claim independence. They want more bang for their buck and they'll go to the side that offers them the most.

I have no problem with that, the Shetlanders have little allegiance to Scotland but you were the one claimed England would lose "Forties, Shetland, Moray and Northern Scotland Coast"

To try and bring some relevance back to this, Conservative "England" lost Scotland after Thatcher a while ago. If Scotland (minus the oil bearing Islands that have no allegiance to Edinburgh) go their own way - that is their right in their referendum.
 
First this is a thread about Margaret Thatcher, second of course I'm wrong if I mentioned there was a Constitution - what I mentioned was a "constitutional right to choose their own future."
Well, there IS a constitution, just not a codified one. There's also a Bill of Rights, and has been since 1689. This is virtually the first thing you learn as a politics undergraduate.
 
**** the Catholics sympathy the protestants have been their for hundreds of years and have rights as well, if they don't like it they are welcome to move south of the border.

If you had read my posts on this subject, you would realize that I recognize that the majority of the population is Unionist and thus support British sovereignty unless at some point in the future a majority wish to reunify with Ireland.
 
Well, there IS a constitution, just not a codified one. There's also a Bill of Rights, and has been since 1689. This is virtually the first thing you learn as a politics undergraduate.

Thanks Andy, I knew that - was trying to decipher what our Austrian (Irish Catholic?) Economist is on about.
 
The meaning of your post was quite clear.

And at least when I speak about northern pubs, I know what I'm talking about. They tend to be populated by hard working, hard drinking men. As I said, stick to London if you ever visit. You'll be much more comfortable there.

The meaning of my post was quite clear but you teetered to the wrong conclusion.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

There are a lot of sources to show what the reality of her régime looked like. This documentary is beautifully made and tells the full story of the miners' strike...



Andy, you don't have to convince me that there were certain aspects of her leadership that were very problematical. To draw upon my earlier analogy, I loathe many of Reagan's policies, and those I loathe most were those that engineered our society away from egalitarianism.

That being said, I would sound pretty ridiculous were I to say he was the worst person ever to have lived. Such hyperbole is so arch that any person making such a statement is more likely a POE than a legitimate poster, as it is so far off the charts as to be the stuff of parody.

Reasonable people make reasonable statements and it is quite possible to detest certain aspects of a politician's platform while analyzing other parts with a fair mind. Only an extreme idealogue treats opposing ideologies as the embodiment of pure evil and treats them as such even as they do not even BEGIN to approach that level seen in modern history.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andy, you don't have to convince me that there were certain aspects of her leadership that were very problematical. To draw upon my earlier analogy, I loathe many of Reagan's policies, and those I loathe most were those that engineered our society away from egalitarianism.

That being said, I would sound pretty ridiculous were I to say he was the worst person ever to have lived. Such hyperbole is so arch that any person making such a statement is more likely a POE than a legitimate poster, as it is so far off the charts as to be the stuff of parody.

Reasonable people make reasonable statements and it is quite possible to detest certain aspects of a politician's platform while analyzing other parts with a fair mind. Only an extreme idealogue treats opposing ideologies as the embodiment of pure evil and treats them as such even as they do not even BEGIN to approach that level seen in modern history.

I don't disagree and, as far as I can see, there's been just the slightly hysterical Penderyn, and HoJ making such overblown condemnations. What you need to bear in mind however, is that there is a sizeable proportion of the British and Irish populations for whom she was the most divisive and most authoritarian politician they've had to live with. You can see from that YT doc the depth of the social unrest she generated. Of course her defenders will argue that she wasn't to blame, and we'll disagree. There have been many, many worse world leaders than her just in my lifetime, but none of them were British.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

-- There have been many, many worse world leaders than her just in my lifetime, but none of them were British.

No surprise Callaghan, Heath and Wilson all get a free pass from you. To you, the UK industry and economy in the 1970's was just peachy.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

No, actually they weren't very happy in the 1950's. They still had food rationing from the Second World War for part of it. It's hard to be deliriously happy when you still have food rationing.

They'd just survived a war against the Nazis, making food rationing a rather minor complaint in comparison. All you need to is look back at the media of the time and talk to the people who were there and they'll have quite a different response.

They were a far hardier bunch that the wusses of today who must have the government look after them or permanent scars are left on their psyches.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

or people who lost their livelihood and their communities.....

And that's something for which everyone should be prepared. Continuing in the same drudgery for decades is not only soul destroying it is impossible to maintain.

It is our responsibility to ourselves and our families to learn to adapt to changing times and be prepared for it. Those who can't do that only have themselves, and perhaps their 'communities', to blame.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

LOL, Thatcher was never Prime Minister of Germany or America. She took over a has been country run into the ground by powerful unions and 11 years later left a far healthier country. The same British people you claim she hated had the right to buy their own council homes and 1 in 4 of us had shares in private companies.

That's not hate - all you're describing is your envy of her acheivements.

Infinate, Thatcher was a psychopath. Plain and simple. Her projects were not intended to help people, they were there simply to create the society she wanted.

Lest there be an argument as to her being a psychopath. Not all psychopaths are mass murderer's. Indeed many are businessmen and in Management where their ability not to feel or care about other people often is an asset as it appeared to be for her. She cared not one bit when people died on hunger strikes or the sinking of the Belgrano or any of the other things which have been mentioned. You mentioned her taking away community feeling. Indeed she did. Taking control from local councils definitely took away the ability for councils to work for what was best for the people of the community and hence create positive community feeling but what would that matter to someone who believed she was God and had no empathy or understanding for anyone who did not share her mindset - one of the problems of the psychopath due to their lack of empathy.

Whatever else she was, she was a psychopath. I have been surprised at people's response to her but i understand that the TUC have been selling Thatcher Death pack's for a couple of years or so, so in some sense prepared. The country which she took over would never have acted towards a leader dying like that imo, but as she taught us, greed is good, the individual is all that matters, there is no society and compassion is for fools.
 
Back
Top Bottom