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Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87 [W:113]

Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
No, but only cowards stretch out their lives when they are old, have terminal diseases that require lots of attention and care from their families.

You don't agree - you are wrong.

It happened to both my parents - whom I love.

They put their family/friends through hell just to stretch out their lives a few months...selfish and cowardly.

And save your 'life is precious' comments...I heard it from my mother every week of my life.

And I heard those words in my head as everyone abandoned her because she turned into an incredibly bitter and angry woman as her health failed...everyone but me. I as a young man looked after her in her dying days. Only I (and a nurse) was with her at the end.

She was miserable, she made everyone else miserable (though I was too ignorant/naive and too busy taking care of her to feel anything) and it cost the family a TON of money (not just her money - everyone else's money. Possibly several hundred thousand dollars worth).

And for what?

Absolutely nothing.

And the same goes for Margaret Thatcher if she put her friends/family through the same thing while she slowly lost her mind to dementia.


My solution is simple - assisted suicide should be legal for any sane person AND the government should stop providing anything but emergency assistance to people after 80 (and no - murdering them is not an option as you mentioned).


I await your no doubt, emotion based, closed-minded rant about how morally wrong I am.

It will probably be filled with ignorance and naivety because the vast majority of people are so afraid of dying, so heck bent on living every second they can, no matter how miserable it makes their loved ones, that they don't dare hear that it is selfish - and it will be read and discarded.


Have a nice day.
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they still have the right to live even if they are old..a little empathy please .
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Grant said:
In Communist countries there was 100% employment, but there was little production and what there was was third rate. That was the case in Britain when Margaret Thatcher took over, and she turned it around.
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No it wasn't. Another silly rightwing narrative. Thatcher was just a petite bourgeois bully (like Reagan) who borrowed from the future but gutting industries, training and worker skills, writing a blank check to the military, and then claming victory.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Quag said:
My point was she is not comparable to Hitler I am not trying to argue she was heaven sent. But when some J*** A** claims they hate no one, then calls a democratically elected politician who leaves power without being forced out through use of arms, the most evil person that ever lived anywhere they are total BS liars. They do hate people and have no clue what Evil really is.
I could care less if you agree/disagree with here politics, She was a human being that has died and she was not evil! Only the truly evils should have their deaths celebrated.
You know like the J*** a**** that jump and scream for joy whenever someone they disagree with politically dies (that applies to all sides)
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Penderyn tends towards the hyperbolic.

I don't think she was the worst human who ever lived and I don't think I've called her evil. I do think that she was the worst and most despotic PM the UK has had in my lifetime and I would use the word 'wicked'. I'm aware that it's a fine distinction between 'evil' and 'wicked', but the distinction I'd make is that the former I'd see as intrinsic, the latter relating more specifically to the actions she took. I hope you can see the difference.

I do concede that my reaction to her death has been quite visceral, but the scars of that period of history are still quite raw for me and many others.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
My solution is simple - assisted suicide should be legal for any sane person AND the government should stop providing anything but emergency assistance to people after 80 (and no - murdering them is not an option as you mentioned).
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This is why, using Thatcher as your example, you fail.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:
Penderyn tends towards the hyperbolic.

I don't think she was the worst human who ever lived and I don't think I've called her evil. I do think that she was the worst and most despotic PM the UK has had in my lifetime and I would use the word 'wicked'. I'm aware that it's a fine distinction between 'evil' and 'wicked', but the distinction I'd make is that the former I'd see as intrinsic, the latter relating more specifically to the actions she took. I hope you can see the difference.

I do concede that my reaction to her death has been quite visceral, but the scars of that period of history are still quite raw for me and many others.
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I have np with someone not liking her (or any other politician) but to claim joy at someone's death just because you disagreed with them politically and thus didn't like them is pretty sick IMHO. Yes Penderyn went overboard with their remarks. I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if you are in the same company or merely dislike Thatcher. If the former shame on you, if the latter then that is fine with me.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Quag said:
I have np with someone not liking her (or any other politician) but to claim joy at someone's death just because you disagreed with them politically and thus didn't like them is pretty sick IMHO. Yes Penderyn went overboard with their remarks. I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if you are in the same company or merely dislike Thatcher. If the former shame on you, if the latter then that is fine with me.
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It's not about simple dislike. Many, many people that I dislike have died, but very very few of them had a particularly direct effect that in any way blighted the lives of so many people who have been important to me. She did, and I'm really not sorry she's gone.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andy, I hope you realise I was referencing her vascular dementia. ;)
 
Grant said:
it was you who mentioned northern pubs. They seem to hold a special significance for you.
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Did I associate them with prodigious intellect? I mean such that, by comparison, the mentality of the average southern pub-goer is diminutive?
 
NoC_T said:
Did I associate them with prodigious intellect? I mean such that, by comparison, the mentality of the average southern pub-goer is diminutive?
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I assumed that when you said "I'd have given a lot to see Thatcher stroll into a northern pub. Oh, to have been a fly on that wall. Especially back in the day. *sigh*", that a lively debate would ensue and that they might be Thatcher's intellectual equals.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Ben K. said:
Andy, I hope you realise I was referencing her vascular dementia. ;)
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That's why I liked your post. She was all kinds of bad things in her day, but she was never insane.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Medusa said:
they still have the right to live even if they are old..a little empathy please .
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What on Earth are you talking about?

Where EXACTLY did I say ANYTHING about removing their right to live?

And I was the ONLY one who had empathy for my mother while she slowly died...so save your words...you clearly know NOTHING what I feel on the subject.

Are you suggesting that I wanted my mother killed? Are you nuts...I love her. AndI would take care of her again if the need arose (as impossible as that is) despite my feelings on the subject.


All you see is I am not being 'respectful' enough...so you automatically judge and put words in my mouth.

I said nothing of murdering the terminally ill or taking away their right to free choice - and yet you appeared to assume otherwise.

:rolleyes:

You got a problem with my words? Fine.

Just make sure they are my words that I typed and not your words that you assumed I did.


Most people live on fear.

And fear of death is the biggest one.

So they resent any hint of 'disrespect' for those that choose to live as long as they possibly can...no matter the cost to their friends and family.


I do not care what you say...it is INCREDIBLY selfish to be old AND have a terminal disease AND require others to look after you AND force them to be unhappy as they slowly watch you die.

The selfless thing to do would be to kill yourself.

And I am NOT...repeat NOT...talking about murdering them or removing their freedom of choice.

I am saying they should do the selfless, honourable thing and freely decide to end their own lives at that point and save those they love immense suffering just so they can live a few months more.

And with the population aging rapidly, this problem is only going to get worse.

You disagree - you are wrong.


Have a nice day.
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Ben K. said:
This is why, using Thatcher as your example, you fail.
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Fail at what?

Making sense - like you are right now (IMO)?
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
Fail at what?
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Using Thatcher as an example for your assisted suicide argument. She suffered from dementia, so informed consent is pretty tricky - which is why assisted suicide is difficult to legislate for. The potential for corruption is very large.
 
Grant said:
Are northern pubs where the great minds of Britain congregate?
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No, it's mostly just people who work hard at jobs where they sometimes get their hands dirty.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Ben K. said:
Using Thatcher as an example for your assisted suicide argument. She suffered from dementia, so informed consent is pretty tricky - which is why assisted suicide is difficult to legislate for. The potential for corruption is very large.
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What?

I highly doubt that she went to bed one night fully cognizant and then woke up the next day out of her tree.

Dementia is a slow process.

There surely would have been many points along the way where she was knowing her condition but still sane enough to decide her future...especially someone as intelligent as she was.


Freedom is absolute.

I should be able to legally end my life whenever I wish and it should be up to the state to prove I am not of sound mind...not up to me to prove I am.


That a sane person cannot legally take their own life is absolutely ridiculous.

If you disagree - you are wrong.


Have a nice day.
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
What?

I incredibly highly doubt that she went to bed one night fully cognizant and then woke up the next day out of her tree.

Dementia is a slow process.

There surely would have been many points along the way where she was knowing her condition but still sane enough to decide her future...especially someone as intelligent as she was.


Freedom is absolute.

I should be able to legally end my life whenever I wish and it should be up to the state to prove I am not of sound mind...not up to me to prove I am.


That a sane person cannot legally take their own life is absolutely ridiculous.

If you disagree - you are wrong.


Have a nice day.
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No, vascular dementia can be a quite sudden process. You know how a stroke can degrade your motor faculties - the same can happen to your cognitive ones. This is the dementia Thatcher likely suffered from.

Even with the progressive types, I'm not sure I'd like to be in a position to judge when they legally crossed that "line".
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Andalublue said:
It's not about simple dislike. Many, many people that I dislike have died, but very very few of them had a particularly direct effect that in any way blighted the lives of so many people who have been important to me. She did, and I'm really not sorry she's gone.
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Not being sorry is not the same as being joyful.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Quag said:
Not being sorry is not the same as being joyful.
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Hmm. It's a fine line for me. My rational head says one thing, my instinct and emotions say something else.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Ben K. said:
No, vascular dementia can be a quite sudden process. You know how a stroke can degrade your motor faculties - the same can happen to your cognitive ones. This is the dementia Thatcher likely suffered from.

Even with the progressive types, I'm not sure I'd like to be in a position to judge when they legally crossed that "line".
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It can be sudden and it can not be sudden.
And unless you knew Thatcher personally, you cannot know which was the case for her. So I am going to assume she was sane even after she knew of her condition until I see factual evidence to the contrary.


Nevertheless, as I typed, it should be up to the state to have to prove you are not sane, not the other way around.

And no, it would not be easy. But that is fine also.

It should always be difficult for the state to take basic rights and freedoms away (which committing suicide should be)...not easy.

Sane until proven insane.
 
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Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
What on Earth are you talking about?

Where EXACTLY did I say ANYTHING about removing their right to live?

And I was the ONLY one who had empathy for my mother while she slowly died...so save your words...you clearly know NOTHING what I feel on the subject.

Are you suggesting that I wanted my mother killed? Are you nuts...I love her. AndI would take care of her again if the need arose (as impossible as that is) despite my feelings on the subject.


All you see is I am not being 'respectful' enough...so you automatically judge and put words in my mouth.

I said nothing of murdering the terminally ill or taking away their right to free choice - and yet you appeared to assume otherwise.

:rolleyes:

You got a problem with my words? Fine.

Just make sure they are my words that I typed and not your words that you assumed I did.


Most people live on fear.

And fear of death is the biggest one.

So they resent any hint of 'disrespect' for those that choose to live as long as they possibly can...no matter the cost to their friends and family.


I do not care what you say...it is INCREDIBLY selfish to be old AND have a terminal disease AND require others to look after you AND force them to be unhappy as they slowly watch you die.

The selfless thing to do would be to kill yourself.

And I am NOT...repeat NOT...talking about murdering them or removing their freedom of choice.

I am saying they should do the selfless, honourable thing and freely decide to end their own lives at that point and save those they love immense suffering just so they can live a few months more.

And with the population aging rapidly, this problem is only going to get worse.

You disagree - you are wrong.


Have a nice day.
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who are you to suggest that ?

My solution is simple - assisted suicide should be legal for any sane person AND the government should stop providing anything but emergency assistance to people after 80 (and no - murdering them is not an option as you mentioned).

if thats easy ,do it when you are old.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

Medusa said:
who are you to suggest that ?

My solution is simple - assisted suicide should be legal for any sane person AND the government should stop providing anything but emergency assistance to people after 80 (and no - murdering them is not an option as you mentioned).

if thats easy ,do it when you are old.
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I will.

'Better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'.

Amen.
 
Re: Baroness Thatcher dies, age 87

DA60 said:
It can be sudden and it can not be sudden.
And unless you knew Thatcher personally, you cannot know which was the case for her. So I am going to assume she was sane even after she knew of her condition until I see factual evidence to the contrary.


Nevertheless, as I typed, it should be up to the state to have to prove you are not sane, not the other way around.

And no, it would not be easy. But that is fine also.

It should always be difficult for the state to take basic rights and freedoms away (which committing suicide should be)...not easy.

Sane until proven insane.
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The flaws of capital punishment extrapolated to an ever growing population in our societies. Wonderful.
 
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