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Pastor Rick Warren's son commits suicide

Well there are gangs of gun nuts roaming the streets of Chicago, ironically the Community Barrack Obama apparently organized.

Exactly why we want to stop selling them guns without any questions. Why do you think anyone should be able to buy a gun with no questions asked?
 
It seems your interest is more in guns than suicides. Would that be correct?

You can't talk about suicide without mentioning guns. Unless you live in a NRA dream world of course. Guns and gun ownership are not all good. They present risks that people need to be aware of to make am intelligent decision about owning them. You have a problem with that?
 
It seems your interest is more in guns than suicides. Would that be correct?

Since 56% of men use guns for suicide, any discussion of suicide prevention must address guns as pointed out by the National Institute of Mental Health.
 
You can't talk about suicide without mentioning guns. Unless you live in a NRA dream world of course. Guns and gun ownership are not all good. They present risks that people need to be aware of to make am intelligent decision about owning them. You have a problem with that?

'Mentioning guns' is much different than you going off on an yet another emotional anti gun rant.

I'll take the miniscule risk involved, intelligently decide to keep mine, and you can stop having a problem with that.
 
'Mentioning guns' is much different than you going off on an yet another emotional anti gun rant.

I'll take the miniscule risk involved, intelligently decide to keep mine, and you can stop having a problem with that.

Over 50% of suicides agree with you on that. So good luck. Please be careful and watch out for warning signs in family members at least. It can't be pleasant to have a family member use your gun for suicide.
 
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Over 50% of suicides agree with you on that. So good luck. Please be careful and watch out for warning signs in family members at least. It can't be pleasant to have a family member use your gun for suicide.

I always am.

Sadly, we are not related.
 
Exactly why we want to stop selling them guns without any questions. Why do you think anyone should be able to buy a gun with no questions asked?

What questions are really going to matter? Seriously.

Are you planning a mass murder?
Are you suicidal?

No one planning a mass murder is going to say yes to that. No one who wants to kill themselves is going to say yes. That is pretty common sense. In all honestly a background check is just about all you can do. Anything more than that is pointless.
 
Exactly why we want to stop selling them guns without any questions. Why do you think anyone should be able to buy a gun with no questions asked?

I'm really not interested in a gun debate and shouldn't have become sidetracked. This thread is about the suicide of a young man and should stay on topic.
 
While it is true that you can't stop at determined person from commiting suicide you can save many by limiting availability of guns.


Why else would this be true?
Harvard School of Public Health » HSPH News » Gun prevalence and suicide rank by state

If someone is going to use correlation as causation, why not use race? About 90% of suicides are committed by whites (Suicide Statistics at Suicide.org), so it stands to reason that largely rural, "white" states like Wyoming, where one would be hard-pressed to find a black person, would have higher suicide rates than "non-white" states. These are also, coincidentally, conservative "red" states where gun ownership tends to be tolerated. Notice also that the suicide rate in some of the highest "gun prevalent states," such as Mississippi and Alabama, is lower than Florida, which is listed in the lowest cohort of gun-owning states in Harvard's study. So I'm not convinced that gun ownership is any more of a causation of suicide than race. I mean, if the presence of firearms causes suicides or even permits them to occur more often, what's Japan's problem? Japanese people are very successful at killing themselves, even though it's almost impossible for a private Japanese citizen to own a gun.
 
Criminal and mental history.

Agreed. Which is done by the background check, not a questionaire.

Also, do you really think that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I can understand a person in prison, or on probation/parole not being allowed to own a firearm but if a person has served out their sentence there should be no limitation on their rights or freedoms.
 
I'm really not interested in a gun debate and shouldn't have become sidetracked. This thread is about the suicide of a young man and should stay on topic.


Many of us have an interest in suicide prevention, rather than just saying its tragic but we shouldn't talk about how it happened.
 
Agreed. Which is done by the background check, not a questionaire.

Like 85% of gun owners, I too support background checks for all gun sales.

Also, do you really think that criminals cannot be rehabilitated? I can understand a person in prison, or on probation/parole not being allowed to own a firearm but if a person has served out their sentence there should be no limitation on their rights or freedoms.

I believe actions having consequences. Are willing to take on the liability if someone with a violent background is allowed to buy a gun and kills others with it? How will you bring back to life those killed if you were wrong?
 
I believe actions having consequences.

Should they not be allowed to vote? Marry? Drive a car? Be outside after dark? Yes actions have consequences, but that should be the end of it. Not every crime should be a life long sentence. If a man gets convicted of a felony and a judge sentences him to 10 years, after 10 years it should be over. That is a consequence. Holding it over their head long after their punishment ends is just dumb.

Are willing to take on the liability if someone with a violent background is allowed to buy a gun and kills others with it? How will you bring back to life those killed if you were wrong?

No, because I am not the one who kills them. Are you willing to take on the liability if someone without a criminal record buys a gun and does it? Gets high and does it? Gets drunk? Does it with another means? That is not a very good question to be honest.
 
Many of us have an interest in suicide prevention, rather than just saying its tragic but we shouldn't talk about how it happened.

How it happened is of no matter at all, and you will never understand this.

It is WHY it happened that is important, and I doubt you will understand that either.
 
What questions are really going to matter? Seriously.

Are you planning a mass murder?
Are you suicidal?

No one planning a mass murder is going to say yes to that. No one who wants to kill themselves is going to say yes. That is pretty common sense. In all honestly a background check is just about all you can do. Anything more than that is pointless.

In the real world, people who are suicidal will often tell you. the problem is, nobody asks. I can think of at least six who have told me so.
 
How it happened is of no matter at all, and you will never understand this.

It is WHY it happened that is important, and I doubt you will understand that either.


Thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion there Mr. anonymous internet poster! I'll go with the studies by the National Institute of Mental Health.
 
Should they not be allowed to vote? Marry? Drive a car? Be outside after dark?

Yes actions have consequences, but that should be the end of it. Not every crime should be a life long sentence. If a man gets convicted of a felony and a judge sentences him to 10 years, after 10 years it should be over. That is a consequence. Holding it over their head long after their punishment ends is just dumb.

No, because I am not the one who kills them. Are you willing to take on the liability if someone without a criminal record buys a gun and does it? Gets high and does it? Gets drunk? Does it with another means? That is not a very good question to be honest.

Why? Where is the public support for your strawman? 90% of Americans and 85% of gun owners do not believe we should sell guns to those with violent backgrounds. Only the far right oppose background checks.
 
Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention

What should I do if I think someone is suicidal?

"If you think someone is suicidal, do not leave him or her alone. Try to get the person to seek immediate help from his or her doctor or the nearest hospital emergency room, or call 911. Eliminate access to firearms or other potential tools for suicide, including unsupervised access to medications."

"Suicide by: Males (%) Females (%)
Firearms 56 30
Suffocation 24 21
Poisoning 13 40"

NIMH · Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention

OK, I would have no problem removing a gun from the immediate vicinity of a person I knew to be suicidal. But unless I kept the person under a constant state of vigilance I most likely would not be able to prevent his suicide if he were determined to kill himself. Any simple object would suffice, as I can attest to personally in the case of my father and the six-foot piece of nylon cord he fashioned into a ligature. (The key point is we didn't know at the time he was suicidal.) But to assume that removing guns from the broader society would reduce the suicide rate is a leap of faith, not science. Otherwise, how can one explain the fact that gun-phobic South Korea has a suicide rate more than 2.5 times that of the gun-crazy U.S.? If someone really wants to kill himself, even on impulse, instead of make a point or impress his friends with a cry for help he can do it very effectively without a gun.
 
OK, I would have no problem removing a gun from the immediate vicinity of a person I knew to be suicidal. But unless I kept the person under a constant state of vigilance I most likely would not be able to prevent his suicide if he were determined to kill himself. Any simple object would suffice, as I can attest to personally in the case of my father and the six-foot piece of nylon cord he fashioned into a ligature. (The key point is we didn't know at the time he was suicidal.) But to assume that removing guns from the broader society would reduce the suicide rate is a leap of faith, not science. Otherwise, how can one explain the fact that gun-phobic South Korea has a suicide rate more than 2.5 times that of the gun-crazy U.S.? If someone really wants to kill himself, even on impulse, instead of make a point or impress his friends with a cry for help he can do it very effectively without a gun.


From the OP- "Unfortunately, he also suffered from mental illness resulting in deep depression and suicidal thoughts." - Rick Warren

"If you think someone is suicidal, do not leave him or her alone. Try to get the person to seek immediate help from his or her doctor or the nearest hospital emergency room, or call 911. Eliminate access to firearms or other potential tools for suicide, including unsupervised access to medications."

NIMH · Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention
 
Why? Where is the public support for your strawman? 90% of Americans and 85% of gun owners do not believe we should sell guns to those with violent backgrounds. Only the far right oppose background checks.

There is no strawman. Simple question to you. Do you feel like people who have completed the sentence for a crime committed in the past should continue to be punished for the rest of their lives?

Don't use words you don't understand.
 
"If you think someone is suicidal, do not leave him or her alone. Try to get the person to seek immediate help from his or her doctor or the nearest hospital emergency room, or call 911. Eliminate access to firearms or other potential tools for suicide, including unsupervised access to medications."

NIMH · Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention

Clearly this was not written for people who have been battling suicidal thoughts their entire life, it seems to be more of a guide for when you first recognize them. Are you saying they shouldn't have ever left him alone, and that they should have sought immediate help or called 911 daily?
 
Clearly this was not written for people who have been battling suicidal thoughts their entire life, it seems to be more of a guide for when you first recognize them. Are you saying they shouldn't have ever left him alone, and that they should have sought immediate help or called 911 daily?


The National Institute of Mental Health is saying: "Eliminate access to firearms or other potential tools for suicide, including unsupervised access to medications."

Would you leave a gun around a son with "severe depression and suicidal thoughts"?
 
Clearly this was not written for people who have been battling suicidal thoughts their entire life, it seems to be more of a guide for when you first recognize them. Are you saying they shouldn't have ever left him alone, and that they should have sought immediate help or called 911 daily?

That was the sense I got from the NIMH literature. The mention of an ER conjures up an immediate threat, as in "I want to kill myself NOW." But for some people who've lived with mental illness and suicidal thoughts their entire lives, unless you're prepared to lock them up in padded rooms indefinitely and take away their shoelaces and nail clippers, keeping them alive could prove to be problematic.
 
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