• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge: Stockton, Calif., Can File for Bankruptcy

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
8,227
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
Judge: Stockton, Calif., Can File for Bankruptcy

The Chapter 9 bankruptcy case is being closely watched nationally for potential precedent-setting implications.
The $900 million that Stockton owes to the California Public Employees' Retirement System to cover pension promises is its biggest debt. So far Stockton has kept up with pension payments while it has reneged on other debts, maintaining that it needs a strong pension plan to retain its pared-down workforce.
The creditors who challenged Stockton's bankruptcy petition are the bond insurers who guaranteed $165 million in loans the city secured in 2007 to pay its contributions to the CalPERS pension fund. That debt got out of hand as property tax values plummeted during the recession, and money to pay the pension obligation fell short.

This is what voting for big-ass government will get you.
 
Is it the ruling, that the city can file for bankruptcy, or the debt it generated in the first place that has you upset? Or is it both?
 
Is it the ruling, that the city can file for bankruptcy, or the debt it generated in the first place that has you upset? Or is it both?

It is the fact that we have this test-tube example on our left coast of where we're headed, and yet we still vote to keep heading down that road.

When you pee on an electric fence, you'd think you'd learn to stop doing it.
 
It is the fact that we have this test-tube example on our left coast of where we're headed, and yet we still vote to keep heading down that road.

When you pee on an electric fence, you'd think you'd learn to stop doing it.

One city goes bankrupt, therefore liberalism bad.
 
Where's Mitt Romney when you need him?
 
The city went bankrupt trying to cover its contributions to public pensions. At least it wasn't because of pet projects, but because of its desire to fulfill a fiduciary obligation to the public.

The first city of many across the U.S., to be sure. I'm curious what austerity measures will now be forced upon the public as part of a bankruptcy deal.
 
The city went bankrupt trying to cover its contributions to public pensions. At least it wasn't because of pet projects, but because of its desire to fulfill a fiduciary obligation to the public.

The first city of many across the U.S., to be sure. I'm curious what austerity measures will now be forced upon the public as part of a bankruptcy deal.

Just one big reason why there should be no such thing as guaranteed defined public employee pensions, they're unsustainable and need to be phased out. Public employees can fund their own 401Ks if they want to retire some day.
 
Judge: Stockton, Calif., Can File for Bankruptcy



This is what voting for big-ass government will get you.

I'd like to know what fool authorized the loaning of $165 million to a city to pay its contributions to a pension fund? That person, or persons, should be fired immediately. If a city is so far behind on its pension obligations, what makes a bank think they will be able to financially catch up and pay off a loan at the same time? Give a city a loan for something you can confiscate and sell if they don't pay - but giving them a loan for nothing tangible is just lunacy.
 
Where's Mitt Romney when you need him?

"Restructure" the city, take millions in "consulting fees," sell off pieces and then run away only to have the city go under anyway? Yes, that sounds like the right idea.
 
I'd like to know what fool authorized the loaning of $165 million to a city to pay its contributions to a pension fund? That person, or persons, should be fired immediately. If a city is so far behind on its pension obligations, what makes a bank think they will be able to financially catch up and pay off a loan at the same time? Give a city a loan for something you can confiscate and sell if they don't pay - but giving them a loan for nothing tangible is just lunacy.

CJ, Sorry, I haven't been following this...been too busy today! Are you saying someone in DC authorized this loan?
 
CJ, Sorry, I haven't been following this...been too busy today! Are you saying someone in DC authorized this loan?

No, I don't believe so - I believe it was the issuance of bonds, approved by bond insurers. I don't know what goes on in the US, but here, bond insurers would not be able to approve such a bond issue because of the nature of the expenditure and the questionable ability to pay.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.

The fact that the city, in 2007, was $165 million behind in its payments to its employees pension plan has nothing to do with the economic devastation of 2008 and everything to do with mismanagement of the city's finances by incompetent city employees and the politicians who employed them.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.

The inability to pay the employees' pensions was brought on by the housing market collapse? I don't think so, but even if it was it just shows that guaranteed defined public employee pensions are a bad idea, especially if it has the ability to bankrupt a city when the housing market crashes.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.
Ouch:
STOC706URN_Max_630_378.jpg
 
No, I don't believe so - I believe it was the issuance of bonds, approved by bond insurers. I don't know what goes on in the US, but here, bond insurers would not be able to approve such a bond issue because of the nature of the expenditure and the questionable ability to pay.

I doubt that those insurers will have any qualms confiscating whatever it takes if the loan payments are not made.

And the troubles just keep mounting up in this country.... :thumbdown:
 
"Restructure" the city, take millions in "consulting fees," sell off pieces and then run away only to have the city go under anyway? Yes, that sounds like the right idea.

Staples and the Utah Olympics might have disagreement with your assertion.

I understand that for some it's easier to just regurgitate campaign rhetoric. Perhaps I expect too much from these folks.
 
The city went bankrupt trying to cover its contributions to public pensions. At least it wasn't because of pet projects, but because of its desire to fulfill a fiduciary obligation to the public.

The first city of many across the U.S., to be sure. I'm curious what austerity measures will now be forced upon the public as part of a bankruptcy deal.

Then that's what happens when you have the same side on both sides of the negotiating table. At least in the private sector, management and labor want different things which makes for a more sensible negotiation. The people elected and reelected these folks to political office. Now they pay the price for their votes. That's the way democracy works, right?
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.

It has everything to do with big government. Governments manage their finances to the bone. Governments who want to spend a lot need to have a savings account to handle bumps in the road just like we do. It is plain, ordinary incompetent management. Period.
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with big government. Rather it is a sharp decrease in tax revenues brought on by the economic devastation of the 2008 recession and the housing market collapse.
This has everything to do with big government, and them making promises for relatively short-term gain that were unsustainable over the long haul.
 
The city went bankrupt trying to cover its
contributions to public pensions. At least it wasn't because of pet projects, but because of its desire to fulfill a fiduciary obligation to the public.

The first city of many across the U.S., to be sure. I'm curious what austerity measures will now be forced upon the public as part of a bankruptcy deal.

No, I don't believe so - I believe it was the issuance of bonds, approved by bond insurers. I don't know what goes on in the US, but here, bond insurers would not be able to approve such a bond issue because of the nature of the expenditure and the questionable ability to pay.


That 127 billion isn't counting unfunded state pension liabillities.

Its closer to 200 billion.
 
Just one big reason why there should be no such thing as guaranteed defined public employee pensions, they're unsustainable and need to be phased out. Public employees can fund their own 401Ks if they want to retire some day.

This is why most companies moved to retirement accounts that a company contributes to. Only a few unionized industries still do pensions, and theyre going bankrupt too, like GM, airlines, etc. I dont know why anyone who starts a career today would rather have a pension that the compnay owns, than a investment acct that the employee owns.
 
Some points on the initial ruling:

1. I agree with the initial ruling allowing Stockton to proceed with its bankruptcy. The city was clearly insolvent by any reasonable legal definition. That decision does not restructure the city's debts. It merely opens the door to the process by which the debts will be restructured.

2. The case has some interesting legal ramifications. California's law places pension obligations ahead of other creditors; federal bankruptcy law does not. The end result will have implications as to the credibility of similar state pension protections. If the ruling requires CalPERS to take a haircut, along with all the other creditors, then the decision will mean that pension protections have to be handled at the federal level. If not, then it could bolster the credibility of such state-based protections and one might witness additional states adopting legislation toward that end.

My early guess is that the decision will actually wind up being a fairly narrow one. It will be based on federal law. However, as the judge initially found that the "capital markets creditors" acted in bad faith e.g., they did not pay their agreed share of mediation costs, the ruling could protect contributions that have already been made to CalPERS while imposing a haircut against future contributions.

My personal opinion is that the creditors who loaned funds to Stockton for purposes of funding its pension obligations failed to conduct their due diligence. They did not adequately study the city's cost structure and consider revenue stream scenarios against that cost structure. In the context of a burst housing bubble that dramatically reduced real estate valuations, a scenario where the city would take a significant and enduring hit to revenue was the most likely one.

That the supposedly "sophisticated" lenders missed the proverbial elephant is and ought to be their problem. The excuse "we didn't know" is not believable, as empirical evidence from financial distress cases demonstrate that when an entity begins borrowing to meet basic obligations, that's a huge red flag. The city had a fragile financial structure and the fragility of that structure was readily apparent had due diligence been undertaken and or had these lenders had a reasonable understanding of financial structures. The city was in a "speculative" situation whereby it was borrowing to cover its cash payment obligations (as opposed to expenditures that could readily be deferred or cut or assets that could be used for security). The bottom line is that taxpayers should not be expected to fund the bad risks undertaken by others.

Having said that, I do believe all creditors, including CalPERS should share in the restructuring. However, the bad faith and naivete of those making the risky loans, among other factors, should be considered in the court's determination of how those haircuts will be spread.
 
Some points on the initial ruling:

1. I agree with the initial ruling allowing Stockton to proceed with its bankruptcy. The city was clearly insolvent by any reasonable legal definition. That decision does not restructure the city's debts. It merely opens the door to the process by which the debts will be restructured.

2. The case has some interesting legal ramifications. California's law places pension obligations ahead of other creditors; federal bankruptcy law does not. The end result will have implications as to the credibility of similar state pension protections. If the ruling requires CalPERS to take a haircut, along with all the other creditors, then the decision will mean that pension protections have to be handled at the federal level. If not, then it could bolster the credibility of such state-based protections and one might witness additional states adopting legislation toward that end.

My early guess is that the decision will actually wind up being a fairly narrow one. It will be based on federal law. However, as the judge initially found that the "capital markets creditors" acted in bad faith e.g., they did not pay their agreed share of mediation costs, the ruling could protect contributions that have already been made to CalPERS while imposing a haircut against future contributions.

My personal opinion is that the creditors who loaned funds to Stockton for purposes of funding its pension obligations failed to conduct their due diligence. They did not adequately study the city's cost structure and consider revenue stream scenarios against that cost structure. In the context of a burst housing bubble that dramatically reduced real estate valuations, a scenario where the city would take a significant and enduring hit to revenue was the most likely one.

That the supposedly "sophisticated" lenders missed the proverbial elephant is and ought to be their problem. The excuse "we didn't know" is not believable, as empirical evidence from financial distress cases demonstrate that when an entity begins borrowing to meet basic obligations, that's a huge red flag. The city had a fragile financial structure and the fragility of that structure was readily apparent had due diligence been undertaken and or had these lenders had a reasonable understanding of financial structures. The city was in a "speculative" situation whereby it was borrowing to cover its cash payment obligations (as opposed to expenditures that could readily be deferred or cut or assets that could be used for security). The bottom line is that taxpayers should not be expected to fund the bad risks undertaken by others.

Having said that, I do believe all creditors, including CalPERS should share in the restructuring. However, the bad faith and naivete of those making the risky loans, among other factors, should be considered in the court's determination of how those haircuts will be spread.
Don't disagree with anything you say.

Regarding the part in red, do you think it's possible that the lender knew the risks, but secretly/internally chose to ignore it because they thought that in a worst case scenario they could get some sort of "bail out"?
 
Back
Top Bottom