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US provides aid to Syrian rebels

hfd said:
We were also told that the 'fighters' in Libya were secular. I see a big picture here. We are involved in a Civil War. We don't need to be doing that. Governments over the years have killed their own. Hell, we did it. Remember? I take it you supported the actions against Saddam. After all, he killed his own.
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and they killed your ambassador which surprised even hillary .

globalists want every middle eastern country to turn into harmless saudi arabia.

very harmless for you but harmful for its own citizens
 
Medusa said:
and they killed your ambassador which surprised even hillary .
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Hillary Clinton is clueless and would never have gone anywhere without her husband being Bill.

globalists want every middle eastern country to turn into harmless saudi arabia.
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SA is not that harmless.

Defeat The Third Jihad: Saudi Arabia's Funding of American Mosques

Keep in mind that's where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from and no religion but Islam is allowed to be practiced.
very harmless for you but harmful for its own citizens
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No Islamic country is 'harmless'.
 
Grant said:
Hillary Clinton is clueless and would never have gone anywhere without her husband being Bill.



SA is not that harmless.

Defeat The Third Jihad: Saudi Arabia's Funding of American Mosques

Keep in mind that's where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from and no religion but Islam is allowed to be practiced.


No Islamic country is 'harmless'.
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l alrready know it !

tell it to Cia ,pentagon etc..

they still think those terrorists were syrian ,iraqi or libyan :2brickwal
and you have zero knowledge about islam
 
While I certainly agree that the Obama Administration is guilty of appalling hypocrisy for allocating funds to a foreign civil war overseas while pissing and moaning about the horrors of sequester and budget cuts at home, I really don't have a terribly large problem with the idea of funding the Syrian Opposition in general concept.

The Assad regime needs to go. I'm not even talking in a strictly humanitarian sense either. The current Syrian Government is one of Iran's last remaining allies in the region. It's collapse would be a massive blow to Iran's interational prestige and leave the Iranian Government in a weak strategic and political position.

Completely isolated on a regional level, the Iranians would be far more likely to come to the negotiating table where their nuclear program is concerned. It would also wreak havoc with the Iranian economy and the Iranian public's support for Ahmadinejad's government. It might very well be the final straw necessary to critically destabilize the regime.

Furthermore, the question of whether or not the Syrian Opposition would be any better than the current regime frankly isn't terribly relevant. The Israelis are perfectly capable of "cleaning house" on their own in this regard. They were more than a match for a militarily strong and politically unified Syria; the ambitions of a divided Syria which has been decimated by almost half a decade of vicious civil war will be easy to contain by way of comparison.

The long term consequences of one's actions are always ultimately unforeseeable. On a short term basis, however; the situation is a clear win if we play it right.
 
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Medusa said:
l alrready know it !

tell it to Cia ,pentagon etc..

they still think those terrorists were syrian ,iraqi or libyan :2brickwal
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I have no idea what these people are up to anymore, nor what their goals are, whether they are long term, strategic, short term, or even whose side they are on. They all appear political now, with no coherent idea what they are doing.
 
Gathomas88 said:
While I certainly agree that the Obama Administration is guilty of appalling hypocrisy for allocating funds to a foreign civil war overseas while pissing and moaning about the horrors of sequester and budget cuts at home, I really don't have a terribly large problem with the idea of funding the Syrian Opposition in general concept.

The Assad regime needs to go. I'm not even talking in a strictly humanitarian sense either. The current Syrian Government is one of Iran's last remaining allies in the region. It's collapse would be a massive blow to Iran's interational prestige and leave the Iranian Government in a weak strategic and political position.

Completely isolated on a regional level, the Iranians would be far more likely to come to the negotiating table where their nuclear program is concerned. It would also wreak havoc with the Iranian economy and the Iranian public's support for Ahmadinejad's government. It might very well be the final straw necessary to critically destabilize the regime.

Furthermore, the question of whether or not the Syrian Opposition would be any better than the current regime frankly isn't terribly relevant. The Israelis are more than capable of "cleaning house" in this regard on their own. They were more than a match for a militarily strong and politically unified Syria, the ambitions of a divided Syria which has been decimated by almost half a decade of vicious civil war will be easy to contain by way of comparison.
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It seems to me you are being hopelessly optimistic, though I naturally hope you are right. I think the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamic allies have a far more realistic long term plan than the western democracies.
 
Gathomas88 said:
While I certainly agree that the Obama Administration is guilty of appalling hypocrisy for allocating funds to a foreign civil war overseas while pissing and moaning about the horrors of sequester and budget cuts at home, I really don't have a terribly large problem with the idea of funding the Syrian Opposition in general concept.

The Assad regime needs to go. I'm not even talking in a strictly humanitarian sense either. The current Syrian Government is one of Iran's last remaining allies in the region. It's collapse would be a massive blow to Iran's interational prestige and leave the Iranian Government in a weak strategic and political position.

Completely isolated on a regional level, the Iranians would be far more likely to come to the negotiating table where their nuclear program is concerned. It would also wreak havoc with the Iranian economy and the Iranian public's support for Ahmadinejad's government. It might very well be the final straw necessary to critically destabilize the regime.

Furthermore, the question of whether or not the Syrian Opposition would be any better than the current regime frankly isn't terribly relevant. The Israelis are more than capable of "cleaning house" in this regard on their own. They were more than a match for a militarily strong and politically unified Syria, the ambitions of a divided Syria which has been decimated by almost half a decade of vicious civil war will be easy to contain by way of comparison.
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Problem is the Iranians wont be Isolated.....as the Shi'te have and are Controlling Iraq.
 
Grant said:
Hillary Clinton is clueless and would never have gone anywhere without her husband being Bill.
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Oh, please. Where do you get this, Chris Matthews? She rode the bench like Steve Young and after he got his she got hers.
 
Grant said:
It seems to me you are being hopelessly optimistic, though I naturally hope you are right. I think the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamic allies have a far more realistic long term plan than the western democracies.
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Yes.....that's due to the strategy of using Democracy while saying they are Republic. Course then their delusions get in the way.
 
Grant said:
It seems to me you are being hopelessly optimistic, though I naturally hope you are right. I think the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamic allies have a far more realistic long term plan than the western democracies.
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That depends upon whether or not they can maintain their political momentum. Egypt has proven to be a somewhat tricky beast to master so far.

Besides, what does it really profit them to gain control over a devastated husk of a nation anyway? Let them have it, for all I care. As I said before, the Israelis can more than handle themselves.

MMC said:
Problem is the Iranians wont be Isolated.....as the Shi'te have and are Controlling Iraq.
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Perhaps, but this hasn't done Iran any particular favors so far. I also doubt that Maliki is in any great rush to toss in his lot with a lame horse.

If anything, he has proven himself to be a self-interested and opportunistically minded nationalist.
 
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Grant said:
Are we disagreeing here?
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She could have done what she did without Bill and she supported him to make sure one of them got to the top. She's earned what she got and has performed well enough, even if some people want classified info about Benghazi. She's a hawk; I guess the peaceniks gonna hate.
 
Gathomas88 said:
That depends upon whether or not they can maintain their political momentum. Egypt has proven to be somewhat tricky for them to control so far.
Besides, what does it really profit them to gain control over a devastated husk of a nation anyway? Let them have it, for all I care. As I said before, the Israelis can more than handle themselves.
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It's religious as well as political momentum and although many Islamic countries might be third worldish the fact is that they believe ion their cause, and it's not clear whether any western nations have beliefs which are as strong. How many people in western Europe, for example, would die for their religion or their country? Muslims, meanwhile, are lined up to sacrifice themselves for the glory of Islam. And all they need is a few human sacrifices here and there and we are quite prepared to appease and back off. They know it and we know it.

Terrorism works.
 
ecofarm said:
She could have done what she did without Bill and she supported him to make sure one of them got to the top. She's earned what she got and has performed well enough, even if some people want classified info about Benghazi. She's a hawk; I guess the peaceniks gonna hate.
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Oh OK. It's certainly not clear to me what accomplishments she achieved.

A hawk? Is there any evidence of that apart from words?
 
ecofarm said:
I didn't miss any of that. We cannot allow a dictator to bomb their own with the airforce. Not in Libya and not in Syria.
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So we gotta team up with Alquaida ??

Wasn't Alquaida the group responsible for 9-11??

So, when did Alquaida become the good guys??
 
Grant said:
Oh OK. It's certainly not clear to me what accomplishments she achieved.
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Senator, Sec...

Pretty big stuff.

A hawk? Is there any evidence of that apart from words?
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You mean does she fly?
 
Grant said:
It's religious as well as political momentum and although many Islamic countries might be third worldish the fact is that they believe ion their cause, and it's not clear whether any western nations have beliefs which are as strong. How many people in western Europe, for example, would die for their religion or their country? Muslims, meanwhile, are lined up to sacrifice themselves for the glory of Islam. And all they need is a few human sacrifices here and there and we are quite prepared to appease and back off. They know it and we know it.

Terrorism works.
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This is not universal. Syria and Egypt are actually fairly secular nations by Middle Eastern standards. The people of these nations are not going to sit idly by while Islamist radicals consolidate power.

Thousands protest at Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood offices

The Muslim Brotherhood is going to be in for a bit of a struggle if they want to make any kind of bid for regional dominance. If the Arab Nationalists weren't able to pull it off with Soviet backing during the Cold War, I highly doubt that a bunch of overly enthusiastic religious zealots will be able to either.
 
Gathomas88 said:
That depends upon whether or not they can maintain their political momentum. Egypt has proven to be a somewhat tricky beast to master so far.

Besides, what does it really profit them to gain control over a devastated husk of a nation anyway? Let them have it, for all I care. As I said before, the Israelis can more than handle themselves.



Perhaps, but this hasn't done Iran any particular favors so far. I also doubt that Maliki is in any great rush to toss in his lot with a lame horse.

If anything, he has proven himself to be a self-interested and opportunistically minded nationalist.
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Iran is providing Northern Iraq with Electricity.....moreover How do you think Iran has been able to Provide weapons and those who just recently tried to take out the Syrian Defector Al-Asaad the Colonel of the Free Syrian Rebels. Allowing those Shia that want to go and kill Sunni have their free reign. Maliki will bow to the head Shi'te Cleric with no exception, and I am not talking about Al Sadr. Who makes himself known at will.
 
BmanMcfly said:
So we gotta team up with Alquaida ??

Wasn't Alquaida the group responsible for 9-11??

So, when did Alquaida become the good guys??
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The article claims the trainees are secular. Of course, you can invent whatever ya like.
 
Gathomas88 said:
This is not universal. Syria and Egypt are actually fairly secular nations by Middle Eastern standards. The people of these nations are not going to sit idly by while Islamist radicals consolidate power.

Thousands protest at Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood offices

The Muslim Brotherhood is going to be in for a bit of a struggle if they want to make any kind of bid for regional dominance. If the Arab Nationalists weren't able to pull it off with Soviet backing during the Cold War, I highly doubt that a bunch of overly enthusiastic religious zealots will be able to either.
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Time will tell with Egypt. I am kind of surprised to see the army just sitting on their butts. But I do understand that Morsi has replaced a lot of the generals with his own folks which could explain that.
 
Gathomas88 said:
This is not universal. Syria and Egypt are actually fairly secular nations by Middle Eastern standards. The people of these nations are not going to sit idly by while Islamist radicals consolidate power.
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Historically they have been somewhat secular but history is changing very rapidly right now.

New leaders mean new policies and we have eliminated those more secular leaders without having a clear idea who's taking their place. The Egyptians elected a strongly Islamic party and the second place finishers were also strongly Islamic,

Thousands protest at Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood offices
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That's not enough. It may slow it down but the outcome is inevitable.

The Muslim Brotherhood is going to be in for a bit of a struggle if they want to make any kind of bid for regional dominance. If the Arab Nationalists weren't able to pull it off with Soviet backing during the Cold War, I highly doubt that a bunch of overly enthusiastic religious zealots will be able to either.
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They are far better organized and sophisticated now than they were then.
 
MMC said:
Iran is providing Northern Iraq with Electricity.....moreover How do you think Iran has been able to Provide weapons and those who just recently tried to take out the Syrian Defector Al-Asaad the Colonel of the Free Syrian Rebels.
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The Iranians, and by extension, the Syrian Loyalist forces, receive most of their military backing from Russia. Other than bodies for the meat grinder, Iraq isn't really in any shape to provide much of anything of value to the Iranians.

Most of the Shia militias we fought during the war were being actively supplied by the Iranians, as a matter of fact. It's basically the only reason they posed a threat.

Allowing those Shia that want to go and kill Sunni have their free reign.
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I honestly don't really think he has much say in the matter either way. The militias do as they please and always have. Maliki hardly has them on a leash.

Maliki will bow to the head Shi'te Cleric with no exception, and I am not talking about Al Sadr. Who makes himself known at will.
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I wouldn't be quite so sure about that. If he were to openly throw in his lot with the Iranians, he might very well open up the possibility of renewed civil war in his own country between the Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds. His power over the nation is hardly absolute, after all, and his primary interest has always seemed to be stability.

He would also make his regime a prime target for Sunni extremist groups like Al Qaeda.

I think he'd continue to turn a blind eye to the various Shia militias which would flock to Iran's cause, but I doubt his support would really go much beyond that. He honestly doesn't have all that much to offer the Iranians in the first place.
 
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Grant said:
That's not enough. It may slow it down but the outcome is inevitable.
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Nothing is inevitable.

They are far better organized and sophisticated now than they were then.
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Not by a long shot.

United Arab Republic

Arab Islamic Republic

Federation of Arab Republics

The Arab Nationalists actually had their affairs pretty well in order in comparison to the far more ad hoc Muslim Brotherhood. Things still pretty much always wound up falling apart in the longrun due to petty political squabbling over power and resources.
 
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