FAA to Close 149 Air Traffic Towers Under Cuts......

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
They are getting furloughed. I've talked to them.

Who are "they"? I posted info on the top dog. Please supply a link. A furlough is nothing more than a brief unpaid vacation, usually with advance notice and lasting, at most, 14 days, hardly a financial disaster, especially with UI benefits filling in much of the gap.

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

nota bene said:
You may be onto something here.

My community's airport is one on the list, and I'm still shaking my head. This choice really does seem punitive to me. The nearest airport with a tower will be 100 miles away despite there being a major university and a Presidential library here.

Unless your university has an aviation program they have little impact on the amount of traffic the airport gets.

That was the main criteria. How many planes go there each year. Distance to the next tower makes little difference to anybody. A control tower does not handle traffic at a different airport, unless they're within 5 miles of each other, then you have some crossover.

Dickieboy · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
Correlation/causation.

The towers being closed are in smaller communities with less traffic. More rural communities. Which tend to lean Republican.

Yeah, I knew this but posted to see if I could get the standard 'Fox News' sucks meme. Thanks for thinking about it honestly. BTW, I heard yesterday that something like 75% of commercial flights use like 10% of the towers and higher usage doesn't change the relationship much. Even using the numbers in my link the averages is 3 flights per day, mostly private aircraft, which somehow doesn't justify the expense. It is kinda like having a traffic light instead of stop sign at every intersection...

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
Who are "they"? I posted info on the top dog. Please supply a link. A furlough is nothing more than a brief unpaid vacation, usually with advance notice and lasting, at most, 14 days, hardly a financial disaster, especially with UI benefits filling in much of the gap.

Sorry, I meant the "pencil pushers" at the FAA. You know, the one you asked a question about being furloughed and for some reason didn't feel it necessary to check. It's not a brief unpaid vacation, it's permanently reduced hours. (one or two days off unpaid per pay period). There's no unemployment insurance to fill in the gap because they're still employed.

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

Dickieboy said:
Yeah, I knew this but posted to see if I could get the standard 'Fox News' sucks meme. Thanks for thinking about it honestly. BTW, I heard yesterday that something like 75% of commercial flights use like 10% of the towers and higher usage doesn't change the relationship much. Even using the numbers in my link the averages is 3 flights per day, mostly private aircraft, which somehow doesn't justify the expense. It is kinda like having a traffic light instead of stop sign at every intersection...

Right. Some of the towers being closed didn't really need to be there. The airport I base at has had traffic drop off quite a bit over the last several years, they were talking about closing it even before sequestration came up.

Fisher · Mar 23, 2013

small aircraft can still request a flight following. This really is not that big of a thing. A lot of these towers were political payola/Build it and they will come projects anyway. The Obama Administration has been going after smaller airports anyway--requiring them to narrow and/or shorten runways in order to get the improvement funds well before this.

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

Fisher said:
small aircraft can still request a flight following. This really is not that big of a thing. A lot of these towers were political payola/Build it and they will come projects anyway. The Obama Administration has been going after smaller airports anyway--requiring them to narrow and/or shorten runways in order to get the improvement funds well before this.

What? Why would an airport be asked to shorten an existing runway? I've never heard of this happening in my 13 years of flying. I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting something here.

edit: and flight following provides no traffic separation in the local pattern. It's mostly an en route thing.

Fisher · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
What? Why would an airport be asked to shorten an existing runway? I've never heard of this happening in my 13 years of flying. I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting something here.

I read an article about it a year or more ago. Apparently there are municipal airports that don't receive airline traffic that have runways capable of handling them when those airports are not eligible for airline subsidies because they are too close to other airports. I think some of them were legacy airports from WWII IIRC--runways a football field or more wide and 5K+ feet long. They are being cut back to still be able to handle corporate traffic, just not airline traffic.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
Sorry, I meant the "pencil pushers" at the FAA. You know, the one you asked a question about being furloughed and for some reason didn't feel it necessary to check. It's not a brief unpaid vacation, it's permanently reduced hours. (one or two days off unpaid per pay period). There's no unemployment insurance to fill in the gap because they're still employed.

Federal employees get nearly that much leave per pay period. That is a 7% cut in pay (tops), which is basically equivalent to their pay prior to their last "automatic" step increase. You are correct that no UI will be paid if they still get a paycheck.

FAA tells employees to expect 11 furlough days

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/ar...ation-could-mean-furloughs-civilian-employees

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

Fisher said:
I read an article about it a year or more ago. Apparently there are municipal airports that don't receive airline traffic that have runways capable of handling them when those airports are not eligible for airline subsidies because they are too close to other airports. I think some of them were legacy airports from WWII IIRC--runways a football field or more wide and 5K+ feet long. They are being cut back to still be able to handle corporate traffic, just not airline traffic.

Yeah, you're definitely misunderstanding something. They aren't going out and digging up half a runway because they want it to be shorter.

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
Federal employees get nearly that much leave per pay period. That is a 7% cut in pay (tops), which is basically equivalent to their pay prior to their last "automatic" step increase. You are correct that no UI will be paid if they still get a paycheck.

FAA tells employees to expect 11 furlough days

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/ar...ation-could-mean-furloughs-civilian-employees

Two weeks, ten work days, one now unpaid. 10% cut.
Some controllers at still-open towers are doing two unpaid days per period, which is a 20% cut and often results in reduced operation hours at the tower.

This is FAA-specific.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
Federal employees get nearly that much leave per pay period. That is a 7% cut in pay (tops), which is basically equivalent to their pay prior to their last "automatic" step increase. You are correct that no UI will be paid if they still get a paycheck.

FAA tells employees to expect 11 furlough days

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/ar...ation-could-mean-furloughs-civilian-employees

The airports in my area (San Marcos) will simply have their towers be closed since they use contract controllers. These controllers and other tower personnel will just be fired.

FAA cuts funding to some Central Texas air traffic control towers | www.statesman.com

MaggieD · Mar 23, 2013

MMC said:
CHICAGO (AP) — Under orders to trim hundreds of millions of dollars from its budget, the Federal Aviation Administration on Friday released a final list of 149 air traffic control towers that it will close at small airports around the country starting early next month.

The closures will not force any of those airports to shut down, but pilots will be left to coordinate takeoffs and landings among themselves over a shared radio frequency with no help from ground controllers. Those procedures are familiar to all pilots.

Airlines have yet to say whether they will continue offering service to airports that lose tower staff. The trade group Airlines for America said its member carriers have no plans to cancel or suspend flights as a result of the closures.

The agency is also still considering eliminating overnight shifts at 72 additional air traffic facilities, including some at major airports like Chicago's Midway International and General Mitchell Airport in Milwaukee. There was no word Friday on when that decision will come.....snip~

FAA to close 149 air traffic towers under cuts
Associated Press – 9 hrs ago<<<<<More here way more.

Well around us they are Shutting down Gary Airport Tower and some of the Private Fields.....course once again blaming sequester cuts. Although if I was some of these millionaires and billionaires. I think they could build their own towers and hire their own people for Private fields. Which if it affects these types and business. Then they should also be able to turn around and make the Democrats and Obama pay the price.

I haven't looked at the list, but I'm sure many of these airports serve noncommercial interests or little commercial interests. I have no problem with it at all. The Federal government is paying plenty to subsidize private pilots' hobbies. Time to trim.

Deuce · Mar 23, 2013

ttwtt78640 said:
The airports in my area (San Marcos) will simply have their towers be closed since they use contract controllers. These controllers and other tower personnel will just be fired.

FAA cuts funding to some Central Texas air traffic control towers | www.statesman.com

Yeah, the contract guys are getting screwed pretty good. They can't even bring their skills to some other industry, and given the sheer number of control towers cut they can't just transfer.

MaggieD said:
I haven't looked at the list, but I'm sure many of these airports serve noncommercial interests or little commercial interests. I have no problem with it at all. The Federal government is paying plenty to subsidize private pilots' hobbies. Time to trim.

Does not compute.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
Two weeks, ten work days, one now unpaid. 10% cut.
Some controllers at still-open towers are doing two unpaid days per period, which is a 20% cut and often results in reduced operation hours at the tower.

This is FAA-specific.

That would be a 10% cut if it were all "take home" pay, yet we know at the controller pay rate that SS, Medicare, retirement and taxes make that "hit" a good bit smaller. Think for a minute, why a reduction in the planned budget increase needs ANY personnel action at all; the FAA still gets as much (if not more) in 2013 as it got in 2012.

ttwtt78640 · Mar 23, 2013

MaggieD said:
I haven't looked at the list, but I'm sure many of these airports serve noncommercial interests or little commercial interests. I have no problem with it at all. The Federal government is paying plenty to subsidize private pilots' hobbies. Time to trim.

Private (or business) aircraft are not "hobbies"; they carry people and freight. The small airport nearest me, San Marcos, serves the nearby cities of Austin and San Antonio, as well as the F1 track crowd of rich folks from around the world. Unlike a car, these aircraft cannot simply stop and look around to see if anything else is comming, they rely on coordinated communication with controllers to more safely take off and land.

FAA cuts funding to some Central Texas air traffic control towers | www.statesman.com

Visbek · Mar 23, 2013

MMC said:
See all those Hundreds of Millions of Dollars going overseas to help other people in other countries. Tends to put that in a real perspective. Especially when crying about Cuts!

Sequestration is, in fact, making cuts to foreign aid and programs.

• State Department diplomatic functions are cut by $650 million.
• Global health programs are cut by $433 million
• Millenium Challenge Corp. sees a $46 million cut
• USAID loses $291 million.

By the way, foreign aid is only around 1% of the total budget.

Considering that the US exports around $186 billion in goods every month, maybe it's not awful that we plunk down some pocket change to prevent starvation and illness abroad. Certainly private citizens are willing to do so, at least when a hurricane or earthquake smashes a city abroad....

Visbek · Mar 23, 2013

jimbo said:
Other than political gain (or loss) why are traffic control towers, WH tours, and the like, being closed and the free cell phone program...

There is no %$#@!! "Obamaphone."

There is a private sector program, run by a company called SafeLink, which provides 1 hour of call time a month to qualifying low-income households. It's not a government program. (FactCheck.org : The Obama Phone?)

welfare in all its forms, and political salaries and perks left in place?

Quite a few federal employees will lose their salaries, if not their jobs. Contractors will go first, because they are a) pretty expensive and b) contractors, so firing them is a lot easier. The same with any company.

Does anyone really believe that we would not be better off with the closing of the 50 or so czar offices and the politicians staying in DC till the job is done?

I'd prefer that government agencies be run by Oompa-Loompas, and give out candy for free. Unfortunately, that's not how government actually works.

MMC · Mar 23, 2013

Deuce said:
They don't have the option. They are cutting both. Sequestration is really dumb that way.

I would agree.....but then with 70% of these fields being in Republican states. I am sure you can understand how it looks like Cherry Picking.

Visbek · Mar 23, 2013

Fisher said:
A lot of these towers were political payola/Build it and they will come projects anyway.

Yep... and indicative of the real problem.

People want services, but don't want to pay for them.

These smaller airports are exactly the kind of "federal wasted dollars" that ought to be targeted. They're small, low-volume airports, and many receive federal funding and services because locals pressure Congress to keep them going.

What these small airports ought to do is the private sector thing -- namely, hire or pay for the controllers to keep working, and charge those who use the airport for that service. Instead, we get all sorts of hue and cry about how this government spending is "necessary." As long as the people who use the airport don't have to pay for it, that is.

MMC · Mar 23, 2013

Bob N said:
This totally cracks me up. We are watching how much money we're spending, right? How important it is to use 200 million dollars over here instead sending it to foreign countries, am I correct?

No one wishes to complain about the USA spending up to 800 Billion Dollars on a war in Iraq, that we are now in a hole with--including interest. That's fascinating!

Lets all complain about always having to go chase the horse because of a lack of attention to closing the barn door, but if the barn catches fire lets immediately hold a meeting about assigning responsibilities on checking the barn door. :roll:

That's 200 Million for Jordan. 385mil and 60 mil for the Syrian Rebels. 50 mil for those in Mali, and over 1 billion to Egypt. All within the last year and over 485 million within the last 2 weeks. Does that crack you up too? As I find it quite Hilarious. :lamo

Course no one wants to bring up Libya and the 290 some Tomahawks Obama blew off there. Nor his moving Our fleets around in a way that has caused us to double the amount of fuel. Then of course there is that fiasco of providing our equipment for the French. So all the while one can cry about Iraq.

Lets not forget Iraq and whats gone down with Obama there and of course there is Afghanistan where Obama has earned his just rewards with commiting us to another decade of being there. But hey lets all keep our mouths shut and don't say nothing.....Right? :roll:

MMC · Mar 23, 2013

nota bene said:
You may be onto something here.

My community's airport is one on the list, and I'm still shaking my head. This choice really does seem punitive to me. The nearest airport with a tower will be 100 miles away despite there being a major university and a Presidential library here.

Well they are also talking about shutting down Midway for the 3rd Shift as well. That would be a major dent for Chicago and Indiana people. Especially with them closing Gary Airport.

MMC · Mar 23, 2013

MaggieD said:
I haven't looked at the list, but I'm sure many of these airports serve noncommercial interests or little commercial interests. I have no problem with it at all. The Federal government is paying plenty to subsidize private pilots' hobbies. Time to trim.

Well Maggie with them looking at stopping the 3rd shift at Midway. Closing Gary and Waukegan Airfields. Only Place to go will be O'hare.

Bob N · Mar 23, 2013

MMC said:
That's 200 Million for Jordan. 385mil and 60 mil for the Syrian Rebels. 50 mil for those in Mali, and over 1 billion to Egypt. All within the last year and over 485 million within the last 2 weeks. Does that crack you up too? As I find it quite Hilarious. :lamo

Course no one wants to bring up Libya and the 290 some Tomahawks Obama blew off there. Nor his moving Our fleets around in a way that has caused us to double the amount of fuel. Then of course there is that fiasco of providing our equipment for the French. So all the while one can cry about Iraq.

Lets not forget Iraq and whats gone down with Obama there and of course there is Afghanistan where Obama has earned his just rewards with commiting us to another decade of being there. But hey lets all keep our mouths shut and don't say nothing.....Right? :roll:

Once we got ourselves in to that quagmire (Middle East involvement) just how easy do you think it is to get out? I hope that you do not think that it is as easy as getting out of a bath tub. :roll:

MMC · Mar 23, 2013

Bob N said:
Once we got ourselves in to that quagmire (Middle East involvement) just how easy do you think it is to get out? I hope that you do not think that it is as easy as getting out of a bath tub. :roll:

Well that's not the point of Contention with the Sequester......but when people are out of work, cant get a job, are living off assistance that is limited, it does get harder to try and tell them. We have to have these cuts. But we are going to decide where these cuts will be. While throwing money to people overseas and for whatever reason.

Moreover I am sure there are other federal bureaucracies. That can handle a 2% cut that are not as valuable as Air Traffic Controllers are.

FAA to Close 149 Air Traffic Towers Under Cuts......

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