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Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old [W:245]

Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Graffias said:
Which is not what the culture is in any Western nation. Maybe "rape culture" exists in third-world backwaters like India and Congo. I do not see violence against women normalized or excused in the American, Canadian, Australia, or European media, though.

Rape is considered the most heinous crime by the majority of the population, as evidence by the hysteria and hyperbole surrounding the average rape case as well as calls for excessive punishments, such as "hang them" and "cut off their balls and stuff it in their mouths". Violence against women in general is considered unforgivable, while much violence against men is considered trivial and sometimes even amusing. Anyone who believes rape-culture exists truly is blind, brainwashed, mendacious, or just plain dumb.
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You have to watch Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, and all sorts of other news people (on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC) show sympathy for the poor guilty boys with no word for the actual victim. And FYI, Fox, CNN, and I think even MSNBC actually allowed themselves to release publicly the name of the victim. Fox had said earlier that it was not going to release even the names of the perpetrators because all the parties were underage, but later they released the name of the victim. It is against the law for the news to release publicly the name of a rape victim, at least a 16 year old one, but they all did it because they did not actually care. They wouldn't get in trouble. Just like football players wouldn't get in trouble. Because the rape of a girl by a boy is ordinarily not treated as that serious. That's why there are police departments in many places that treat a victim who reports the crime as if she were a whore. That is rape culture.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

choiceone said:
Of course you can tell girls how to keep themselves safe. That is not the same thing as evaluating this girl as "irresponsible." This girl was too trusting because she had been socialized to believe that her friends were caring and concerned and these boys were honorable. If there is anything that rape teaches a rape victim, it is that no human being on earth is really trustworthy - that you have only yourself to rely on as a friend and as an honorable person. That teaches you to take care of yourself by reserving your trust for yourself and God, not human others.
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1) There is nothing wrong with evaulating the girl as irresponsible. It's a near unarguable notion. A 16 year old getting black out drunk is irresponsible. Simple as that. There's not a parent on this forum that would make a claim that they'd find it responsible if their 16 year old, male or female, went and got so drunk that they passed out. That's even the case for those over 21, but especially for those under. Again, people doing irresponsible things aren't "to blame" for bad things that OTHER people choose to do when taking advantage of that irresponsability. But other people doing bad things doesn't magically erase that irresponsability NOR make it something that should be ignored so that we breed a notion within society that personal decisions have zero impact what so ever on your safety.

2) You're spot on in terms of trust issues that come from rape, and it's one of the most devestating and horrible things about it. Trusting is not a bad thing, and indeed is an integral part of the human experienec. A part that is massively damaged in many cases of rape, taking years to be overcome...if it even IS fully overcome. The amount of mental trauma and emotional issues that the rape can cause are in many ways, imho, far more harmful and damaging than the actual moment and is what makes the crime so unimaginably heinous.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
There's nothing about my culture that needs to be changed. Maybe yours, I don't know. I've never lived in a town like that.
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Neither have I, but frankly, I don't know a single woman in my town who would have shown any sympathy whatsoever for the two boys the way Candy Crowley and Poppy Harlow did on CNN News. Most of the guys in my town would have found those boys disgusting and had contempt for their entire attitude toward girls.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

sharon said:
2 teens charged with threatening victim in Ohio rape case

Read more: 2 teens charged with threatening victim in Ohio rape case | Fox News

The teens charged with threatening the victim are GIRLS.. They started on social media within an hour of the verdict. Now the authorities are going after the parents who hosted the party.
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Absolutely...AS THEY SHOULD! If I host, or agree to have my kids host a party where underaged drinking is going on, or people at my party get too drunk to drive, and they leave and kill someone, I can be held accountable. I hope that goes for the people that owned the house this happened in as well...Oh, and kudos to the mom of the victim in this case for using her statement in court to say exactly what needed to be said about these boys....
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Snake Oil said:
Equality of responsibility is what we need. It's not fair to hold males to a higher standard than females. Females want everything equal EXCEPT when it comes to responsibility. If a male smeared himself in blood and walked into a lions cage no one would blame the lion for attacking him, he would hold the resposibility for tempting fate and doing something stupid.
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When a woman rapes a man, that is almost but not quite equal to a man raping a woman. Because every man who rapes a woman also simultaneously threatens her with rape pregnancy, and no woman who rapes a man does that. In that context, even if people were not constantly trying to make abortion illegal, it is still not equal - because the woman has to face the possibility of rape pregnancy and decide how to deal with it or suffer it when it occurs. It can't be equal until the woman has gone through menopause.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

j-mac said:
Absolutely...AS THEY SHOULD! If I host, or agree to have my kids host a party where underaged drinking is going on, or people at my party get too drunk to drive, and they leave and kill someone, I can be held accountable. I hope that goes for the people that owned the house this happened in as well...Oh, and kudos to the mom of the victim in this case for using her statement in court to say exactly what needed to be said about these boys....
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You'll get no argument from me on that count.

Here is an excerpt from the New Yorker.. ripping CNN. Its a good read.


Worse, one could take away the impression that a nice girl doesn’t press charges, rather than that nice boys do not, as was the case in Steubenville, take a girl who has drunk too much and bring her from party to party, assaulting her in a car on the way, until they end up in a basement where they strip and assault her again, and try to make her perform oral sex—except that she is not conscious enough—and then take photographs of her naked body.

They do not text “yep” when asked if they had sex with her, or “I shoulda raped now that everybody thinks I did,” but “she wasn’t awake enough”—as Mays did, raising the question of whether he didn’t think it could be rape if she was passed out—and then text the girl to complain about being taken off the football team and tell her “I’ll just never do anything nice for you again.” Nice—but nice people at a party watching all this can’t let it happen, let alone send around pictures and videos with brutal captions afterward, and then leave their friend to look at them as she frantically wonders what happened to her in the hours she can’t remember.

And nice policemen and nice football coaches don’t act like they hope it will just go away until the pressure of bloggers and social media (and the hackers of Anonymous) pushes them to act. And all of these people cannot then carry on as though the one who caused the trouble was the sixteen-year-old girl who was raped—and who, according to testimony in the trial, has been dropped by her friends, ostracized,

Read more: Life After the Steubenville Rape Trial: Are the Defendants’ Lives Really Over? : The New Yorker

The message is that NICE girls don't press charges.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Redress said:
She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard. It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you. You are blaming the victim. They are unrelated. She made mistakes. Those mistakes did not cause her to be raped.
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I think this is the point. Ordinarily, normal young people in high school assume that their classmates will not rape them. I remember being raped in college. When the violence started, I was so shocked at first I did not even know how to fight back because I had been raised in a community where it was utterly unthinkable that a man would use violence to have sex with a girl. That is why I said above, rape teaches you never to trust a human being again.

But the thing is that society and civilization are actually based on trust, so if your classmates rape you, you learn never to trust society again. That is not good for society. We have to understand that society teaches us to have basic trust in others, so if it now has to teach girls not to trust their classmates, teaches them that all males and maybe some females, could rape you at any time, it is teaching them to accept a state of alienation from the basic trust on which society is built. I'm not saying don't teach them. But this is not just their problem - it's everyone's problem in society.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

apdst said:
If my kids found themselves in a situation where they witnessed something like this and didn't stop it, or get their ass kicked trying to stop it, they would get one hell of a message when I got my hands on them.
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That's good parenting.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Dustmop said:
...yes, because, you know, humans have the intellectual and moral capacity of wild predatory animals. :roll:

Rape culture is why the people testifying in this case didn't think it was rape because the girl was unconscious.
Rape culture is why these boys joked with each other about the "dead girl" being "so raped" and didn't think there would be any consequences.
Rape culture is why people see rape as being a less violent crime if the victim is too weak, incapacitated, or terrified to fight back.
Rape culture is why the victim in this case is being harassed on twitter and getting death threats.

Education to combat rape culture isn't JUST telling men not to rape women. It's teaching men to respect women's bodies. It's teaching them that the rule isn't "no means no"; the rule is "only consent given when NOT incapacitated means yes, and that person reserves the right and any time to retract that consent". It's teaching men that women are not a conquest to be taken and bragged about, that men are fully capable of controlling their actions no matter what a woman looks like, no matter what she is wearing, and no matter what state she is in.

Look at these boys. They were not ASHAMED of what they did. It's a culture which allows men to do that to a woman without feeling ashamed of themselves that contributes to rape. This never would have happened if they had been taught that trying to shoved your dick in an unconscious girl's mouth, taking off her clothes, fingering her, and ejaculating on her is a shameful thing for them to do. Instead, they were taught that they have a free license do what they want, to whomever they want (especially if they are too incapacitated to remember your assault) because they are good at sports. That. Is. Rape. Culture.

This case was made into a big deal precisely because this kind of thing happens all the time, is tolerated all the time, goes unpunished all the time, and that plenty of young men think it is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, document, and brag about right up until the point at which they actually suffer consequences.
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Thank you for a great post.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

In all of this I wonder if the idea that the victim was from West Virgina, and likely not
a classmate of the boys, had much to do with why they thought this would be acceptable behavior?
Like maybe the Girl was from "the other side of the tracks" or the river in this case.
Showing contempt, that her safety somehow had less value.
The other girls may not have spoken up for her, because she was an outsider.
NOTE: I am in no way defending the boys, just wondering about the social dynamics
that allowed this crime to be viewed as acceptable.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

choiceone said:
Gee, and here I thought that parents could teach boys...
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Implying the boys had parents involved in thier lives....did you miss the part where they came from broken homes?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

choiceone said:
Neither have I, but frankly, I don't know a single woman in my town who would have shown any sympathy whatsoever for the two boys the way Candy Crowley and Poppy Harlow did on CNN News. Most of the guys in my town would have found those boys disgusting and had contempt for their entire attitude toward girls.
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Ok....and....?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
Ok....and....?
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Read the piece in the New Yorker.. The behavior of the coach etc.. The message is NICE girls don't press charges.

Worse, one could take away the impression that a nice girl doesn’t press charges, rather than that nice boys do not, as was the case in Steubenville, take a girl who has drunk too much and bring her from party to party, assaulting her in a car on the way, until they end up in a basement where they strip and assault her again, and try to make her perform oral sex—except that she is not conscious enough—and then take photographs of her naked body.

They do not text “yep” when asked if they had sex with her, or “I shoulda raped now that everybody thinks I did,” but “she wasn’t awake enough”—as Mays did, raising the question of whether he didn’t think it could be rape if she was passed out—and then text the girl to complain about being taken off the football team and tell her “I’ll just never do anything nice for you again.”

Nice—but nice people at a party watching all this can’t let it happen, let alone send around pictures and videos with brutal captions afterward, and then leave their friend to look at them as she frantically wonders what happened to her in the hours she can’t remember. And nice policemen and nice football coaches don’t act like they hope it will just go away until the pressure of bloggers and social media (and the hackers of Anonymous) pushes them to act.

And all of these people cannot then carry on as though the one who caused the trouble was the sixteen-year-old girl who was raped—and who, according to testimony in the trial, has been dropped by her friends, ostracized, and put under every sort of pressure—and not the rapists.

Read more: Life After the Steubenville Rape Trial: Are the Defendants’ Lives Really Over? : The New Yorker
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

sharon said:
Read the piece in the New Yorker.. The behavior of the coach etc.. The message is NICE girls don't press charges.

Worse, one could take away the impression that a nice girl doesn’t press charges, rather than that nice boys do not, as was the case in Steubenville, take a girl who has drunk too much and bring her from party to party, assaulting her in a car on the way, until they end up in a basement where they strip and assault her again, and try to make her perform oral sex—except that she is not conscious enough—and then take photographs of her naked body.

They do not text “yep” when asked if they had sex with her, or “I shoulda raped now that everybody thinks I did,” but “she wasn’t awake enough”—as Mays did, raising the question of whether he didn’t think it could be rape if she was passed out—and then text the girl to complain about being taken off the football team and tell her “I’ll just never do anything nice for you again.”

Nice—but nice people at a party watching all this can’t let it happen, let alone send around pictures and videos with brutal captions afterward, and then leave their friend to look at them as she frantically wonders what happened to her in the hours she can’t remember. And nice policemen and nice football coaches don’t act like they hope it will just go away until the pressure of bloggers and social media (and the hackers of Anonymous) pushes them to act.

And all of these people cannot then carry on as though the one who caused the trouble was the sixteen-year-old girl who was raped—and who, according to testimony in the trial, has been dropped by her friends, ostracized, and put under every sort of pressure—and not the rapists.

Read more: Life After the Steubenville Rape Trial: Are the Defendants’ Lives Really Over? : The New Yorker
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What does any of that have to do with my comment on broken homes?

Nothing.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
What does any of that have to do with my comment on broken homes?

Nothing.
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You mean boys from broken homes are prone to rape and kidnapping? Bull.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Graffias said:
CNN is the only media outlet I've heard of that focused any attention on the rapists' suffering. If you ask me, it's appropriate this is mentioned, because while this girl may eventually move on with her life, these guys will find it difficult or impossible to find work or housing because of their criminal past. It wouldn't surprise me if they're living under a bridge or eating out of garbage cans in ten years, as many sex offenders do. If these guys had beaten some scrawny male student instead of raped a female student, they might have still gone to prison for a year, but they would have avoided the sex offender registry which is going to make life a living hell for them once they are released from prison.
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The victim's name was released by CNN, Fox, and MSNBC. CNN and NBC talked about how sad this all was for the rapists, ABC made excuses for the rapists, and USA spent their coverage on focusing on how drunk the girl was. Mainstream media coverage in general was kind to the rapists, and not very kind to the victim.

Graffias said:
No, it's evidence of ignorance, not rape culture.
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I consider a society that does not consistently educate its populous about the definition of rape as a cause of this ignorance, and thus an example of rape culture. If our culture saw preventing rape as a higher priority, we would see teaching about the different types of rape as an essential component of sex education. Yes, some schools do. But obviously some don't.

Graffias said:
30 days seems reasonable to me. That prevents a lot of vindictive women from suddenly reporting false rapes after the marriage goes sour. As far as "aggravated force", that pretty much describes all rape except the passed out drunk kind. And honestly, how common do you honestly think it is for a husband to rape his wife while she's passed out? Many women wouldn't even consider that rape. The lack of consent doesn't always mean it's forced sex.
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The 30 day limit also prevents women who are in abusive relationships for years from reporting rapes that happened during the course of that abuse once they are out and actually feel safe(or safer) reporting the rapes. And a rape accomplished with aggravated force is NOT a description of all rape except the passed out drunk kind. There is rape by deception, date rape, rape under the threat of force, coercive rape, forced rape that does not include aggravated battery, and others. Date rape probably doesn't occur in marriages, nether would rape by deception. But rape by coercion, rape under threat of force (or say, with a weapon), and rape in which a woman is forced but not battered cannot by charged as rape in that state if they occur within a marriage. And that is not right. If I'm married in that state, don't want to have sex, and my husband threatens to beat me if I don't have sex with him, that is rape. The state needs to recognize that.

Graffias said:
The "legitimate rape" statement is a term used in reference to false rape allegations. Rape has the highest false allegation rate of any crime. Akin was trying to differentiate between real rapes and women who claimed they were raped, but were not.
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That's not was he was saying at all, though it's a convenient cover. All he said was that he misspoke. There was no discussion of false rape allegations. He was differentiating between forcible rape, which he saw as legitimate, and all of the other kinds.

You don't want to call it a rape culture because according to you, apparently, we only have a rape culture if basically everyone supports rape. So, fine, let's get away from the feminist term because the term is not what is important and just look at the actual situation. Can we at least agree that there is an issue that needs to be addressed when it comes to education about rape (kinds of rape, prevention, how to report rape), rape prevention in schools, military, prisons and churches, and ensuring that victims can safely report rapes without being blamed and threatened for 'ruining their rapist's life'?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I think that most of the people in this thread who are making excuses for the convicted rapists and blaming the rape victim are probably rapists.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Muhammed said:
I think that most of the people in this thread who are making excuses for the convicted rapists and blaming the rape victim are probably rapists.
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Your name sake married a 9 year old. Sit down.
 
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Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
Your name sake married a 9 year old. Sit down.
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where is the evidence ?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Medusa said:
where is the evidence ?
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  • Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
  • Spellberg, D.A. (1996). Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: The Legacy of 'A'isha Bint ABI Bakr. Columbia University Press. pp. 4-5. ISBN 0-231-07999-0, ISBN 978-0-231-07999-0.
  • Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
  • Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7
  • Barlas (2002), p. 125-126

Aisha was 6-7 when they were engaged, the marriage was consummated when she was 10. Muhammad was a pedophile.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
  • Watt, "Aisha", Encyclopedia of Islam Online
  • Spellberg, D.A. (1996). Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: The Legacy of 'A'isha Bint ABI Bakr. Columbia University Press. pp. 4-5. ISBN 0-231-07999-0, ISBN 978-0-231-07999-0.
  • Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, p. 157.
  • Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131; Tabari, Volume 7, Page 7
  • Barlas (2002), p. 125-126
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they are gossip ,not evidence .any evidence from kuran ?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Jerry said:
Your name sake married a 9 year old. Sit down.
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Jerry.. until recently (as in 60 years ago) their were NO birthdates kept in Arabia.. but historical documents put Aisha's age between 16 and 19 years old.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Medusa said:
they are gossip
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Where is your evidence that they are gossip?

sharon said:
Jerry.. until recently (as in 60 years ago) their were NO birthdates kept in Arabia.. but historical documents put Aisha's age between 16 and 19 years old.
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Your post in no way negates mine. Even if you were correct, you didn't give any citation. I did.

Muhammad was a pedophile, and he never visited the temple mount. You've all been scammed. At least Scientologists don't war with nations.
 
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