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Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old [W:245]

Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No on suggested we shouldn't try to minimize incidents of rape. I was highlighting the fact that since rapes occur, it doesn't serve as evidence that larger american culture normalizes or accepts such behavior.

I was not trying to suggest otherwise, and I apologize if it came across that way. I was more stream of consciousness posting.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No on suggested we shouldn't try to minimize incidents of rape. I was highlighting the fact that since rapes occur, it doesn't serve as evidence that larger american culture normalizes or accepts such behavior.

Low sentence times, Recidivism rates ignored, People willing to blame the female involved, and actually thinking that stupid comments like the recently stated that women victims of rape should urinate, or vomit on their attacker is what contributes to the culture doing little to address the underlying realities of rape.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I know it doesn't work that way. We have to change our culture to respect women and look at them as human beings rather than objects.
There's nothing about my culture that needs to be changed. Maybe yours, I don't know. I've never lived in a town like that.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

There's nothing about my culture that needs to be changed. Maybe yours, I don't know. I've never lived in a town like that.

I am not talking about the culture in your town, I am talking about American culture.


Well sure. And lets tell murders not to kill people, thieves not to steal ****, and drug dealers not to launder money.

Criminals don't usually respond to "that's illegal, bad, and immoral...so knock it off, alright?"

The fact is: crime will exist, period. Knowing that to be the case, it is the responsibility of likely victims to protect themselves. You don't leave your car unlocked when parked outside, you don't walk alone in a poorly lit parking lot in a bad part of town at night, you don't leave your front door open over night, you don't confront the guy dealing crack at the park down the street.

I know it doesn't work that way. We have to change our culture to respect women and look at them as human beings rather than objects.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I am not talking about the culture in your town, I am talking about American culture.

I don't think there's an overwhelming view that women are objects in everyday culture. As others pointed out, if that were true we'd have the same views on rape as underdeveloped middle eastern countries.

But even if we created a society in which women are viewed as goddesses....we'd still have rape. And we'd still have an obligation to teach women how to avoid rapists. Because it isn't about women being an object...it's about women being vulnerable...it's about domination...it's about control. You have to humanize your victim to get the satisfaction a rapist seeks. Objectification really only comes into play when you get to the punishment phase.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Low sentence times, Recidivism rates ignored, People willing to blame the female involved, and actually thinking that stupid comments like the recently stated that women victims of rape should urinate, or vomit on their attacker is what contributes to the culture doing little to address the underlying realities of rape.

I do not know how much those actually contribute, but it is still an excellent point.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

They all walked themselves into this nonsense.

Regardless, drunk teenage boys are nothing new and most manage to not defile passed out girls.

Was a bit iffy on the rape aspect of this case with the actual incident. Details seem a bit hazy to prove rape beyond a reasonable doubt, though I haven't read about this case at length.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I don't think there's an overwhelming view that women are objects in everyday culture. As others pointed out, if that were true we'd have the same views on rape as underdeveloped middle eastern countries.

But even if we created a society in which women are viewed as goddesses....we'd still have rape. And we'd still have an obligation to teach women how to avoid rapists. Because it isn't about women being an object...it's about women being vulnerable...it's about domination...it's about control. You have to humanize your victim to get the satisfaction a rapist seeks. Objectification really only comes into play when you get to the punishment phase.

I am not saying that we wouldn't have rape, I am saying that situations like this would be less likely to happen and we need to stop victim-blaming, rather than actually holding people accountable for their actions. Getting passed out drunk is not a crime, it does not give anyone the excuse to rape people.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Equality of responsibility is what we need. It's not fair to hold males to a higher standard than females. Females want everything equal EXCEPT when it comes to responsibility. If a male smeared himself in blood and walked into a lions cage no one would blame the lion for attacking him, he would hold the resposibility for tempting fate and doing something stupid.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I am not saying that we wouldn't have rape, I am saying that situations like this would be less likely to happen and we need to stop victim-blaming, rather than actually holding people accountable for their actions. Getting passed out drunk is not a crime, it does not give anyone the excuse to rape people.

Actually, at 16 it IS a crime.

But that's not the point.

Nor is anybody excusing the rape.

People are very correctly saying that you have a responsibility to make decisions that protect you from risk of harm. She made bad decisions and put herself at risk. The result of her bad decisions and her risky behavior was becoming incapacitated, which allowed two pigs easy access to her person. Had she remained sober and made smart decisions she would have been more aware of her surroundings and less likely to end up a victim.

It is absolutely asinine to excuse her bad behavior simply because she became a victim. If she'd never been raped nobody would balk about people advising her to cease such irresponsible and dangerous behavior, or even justifying their concern on the basis that she COULD have ended up a victim...but because she DID...it's unacceptable to call out her bad decisions?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Actually, at 16 it IS a crime.

But that's not the point.

Nor is anybody excusing the rape.

People are very correctly saying that you have a responsibility to make decisions that protect you from risk of harm. She made bad decisions and put herself at risk. The result of her bad decisions and her risky behavior was becoming incapacitated, which allowed two pigs easy access to her person. Had she remained sober and made smart decisions she would have been more aware of her surroundings and less likely to end up a victim.

It is absolutely asinine to excuse her bad behavior simply because she became a victim. If she'd never been raped nobody would balk about people advising her to cease such irresponsible and dangerous behavior, or even justifying their concern on the basis that she COULD have ended up a victim...but because she DID...it's unacceptable to call out her bad decisions?

Did she excercise poor judgement? Of course. However, that is not the issue. The issue is that she was raped. No one is excusing her bad behavior, they are condemning those who seem to want to use her mistakes as making her somehow complicit in her rape.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Did she excercise poor judgement? Of course. However, that is not the issue. The issue is that she was raped. No one is excusing her bad behavior, they are condemning those who seem to want to use her mistakes as making her somehow complicit in her rape.

Actually, quite a few people seem to think she shouldn't have to behave responsibly in order to be safe (a lovely sentiment, but completely impractical). They've said it in this thread. So they ARE excusing her behavior, and her behavior is certainly part of the issue here. Most of the people pointing out that women have an obligation to keep themselves safe from potential victimization are not doing so in an effort to excuse or minimize the responsibility of the assholes who raped her. Nor are they doing it because they think she's responsible for actually being raped. They're pointing it out because it is absolutely horrible that she was raped; especially when it's very likely the situation could have been avoided entirely if better judgment had prevailed (from all parties, to be fair).

That some people would actually want us to stop telling women to protect themselves (which has been suggested by some in this thread) is an issue that needs to be addressed...and it's directly related to this case.

People who become victims through their own careless actions are partially responsible for their victimization. That doesn't mean they DESERVED it, or that the person who victimized them should "get off easy". Nor does it mean that we should dismiss the fact that they were victimized, or view their victimization any differently than that of somebody who exercised better judgment. But it does her and future victims a huge disservice to ignore the elephant in the room in order to "protect" the victim.

I don't blame the girl for being raped. I blame her for making herself vulnerable to becoming a victim.

If this case were about a guy who left his front door open, only to be robbed, nobody would be saying we can't blame him for putting himself at risk of robbery. But because this is a case about a crime that's as much physical as emotional...we've got to ignore reality? Nobody deserves to become a victim of crime, I'll say that again. But it does absolutely no good to ignore the blatant mistakes made by the victim that increased their likelihood of becoming one.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

Actually, quite a few people seem to think she shouldn't have to behave responsibly in order to be safe (a lovely sentiment, but completely impractical). They've said it in this thread. So they ARE excusing her behavior, and her behavior is certainly part of the issue here. Most of the people pointing out that women have an obligation to keep themselves safe from potential victimization are not doing so in an effort to excuse or minimize the responsibility of the assholes who raped her. Nor are they doing it because they think she's responsible for actually being raped. They're pointing it out because it is absolutely horrible that she was raped; especially when it's very likely the situation could have been avoided entirely if better judgment had prevailed (from all parties, to be fair).

That some people would actually want us to stop telling women to protect themselves (which has been suggested by some in this thread) is an issue that needs to be addressed...and it's directly related to this case.

People who become victims through their own careless actions are partially responsible for their victimization. That doesn't mean they DESERVED it, or that the person who victimized them should "get off easy". Nor does it mean that we should dismiss the fact that they were victimized, or view their victimization any differently than that of somebody who exercised better judgment. But it does her and future victims a huge disservice to ignore the elephant in the room in order to "protect" the victim.

I don't blame the girl for being raped. I blame her for making herself vulnerable to becoming a victim.

If this case were about a guy who left his front door open, only to be robbed, nobody would be saying we can't blame him for putting himself at risk of robbery. But because this is a case about a crime that's as much physical as emotional...we've got to ignore reality? Nobody deserves to become a victim of crime, I'll say that again. But it does absolutely no good to ignore the blatant mistakes made by the victim that increased their likelihood of becoming one.

She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard. It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you. You are blaming the victim. They are unrelated. She made mistakes. Those mistakes did not cause her to be raped.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard. It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you. You are blaming the victim. They are unrelated. She made mistakes. Those mistakes did not cause her to be raped.

No, those mistakes put her at risk of becoming a victim. And she most certainly has a responsibility to make decisions that do NOT put her at risk.

It should be a valid assumption that if you get fall-down drunk you are at risk of any number of dangers...from alcohol poisoning, to drowning in your own vomit, to getting into a car w/a drunk driver, to serious injury, to rape.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I am not talking about the culture in your town, I am talking about American culture.

and general american culture hardly condones rape. Maybe off shoots like thug culture and the frat house, but main stream america? No
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I am not saying that we wouldn't have rape, I am saying that situations like this would be less likely to happen and we need to stop victim-blaming, rather than actually holding people accountable for their actions. Getting passed out drunk is not a crime, it does not give anyone the excuse to rape people.

I don't even think Sawyer suggested it was an excuse to rape anyone. But getting passed out drunk around a bunch of people you don't really know does clearly increase your chances of being victimized.

Is that fair? No. But it's a reality we have to live with
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I am not talking about the culture in your town, I am talking about American culture.
There's no such thing.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard.

normative vs positivist = what ought to be isn't exactly what is.

It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you.

right, people in general should not be victimized. No one disagrees with this. The problem though is that people will victimize you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. But if you make yourself an easy target, someone eventually will


You are blaming the victim.

No, it's pointing out the notion that people need to protect themselves. Do you lock your doors, or let anyone in your home? No, and why not?


They are unrelated. She made mistakes. Those mistakes did not cause her to be raped.

do you think it's easier to victimize someone when they are passed out drunk?
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No, it's pointing out the notion that people need to protect themselves. Do you lock your doors, or let anyone in your home? No, and why not?

No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.

Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim. Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.

Further, she's among classmates. I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function. She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.
 
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Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.

Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim. Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.

Further, she's among classmates. I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function. She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.

No you aren't. Nobody's done that, actually.

You're taking a risk leaving your door open. If you are robbed, I wouldn't say the robber is less guilty or that your careless behavior negates their criminal activity. They're still deserving of punishment for their illegal actions. Their decisions and your decisions are entirely separate until they come together to create the scenario in which you provide easy access and they take advantage of it. It doesn't de-victimize you in the slightest to point out that you created a situation in which their actions were made easier.
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, ***because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.***

No one suggested it was. What was suggested was that people exist that will take advantage of such things.

PS where do you live? I don't lock my doors either, but I live in the boonies. And if someone wanted to break in, they could just smash a window without it being heard. But when I go into the city, I don't leave money sitting on my care seat, or my car doors unlocked



Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim.

No, I am not. I am pointing out bad people exist in the world, and the first line of defense from such people starts with their potential victims.

Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.

Nope, there is a difference in blaming her and pointing out that everyone has an individual responsibility for guranteeing their own safety.

Honestly, the idea that people are taking offense to common sense practices, and seeing them as an attack on the victim, is about as absurd as you can get.



Further, she's among classmates.

I don't know about you, but I never got to pick my classmates and surely being such never guaranteed moral character

I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function.

actually some kids do aim for such


She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.

No, I'm pointing to the fact that she got blacked out drunk. Unless she was forced into such a state, the responsibility for that falls on her shoulders
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl


"Glorifying violence, whether it is through advertising, movies, books, magazines, TV shows, etc., or in real life. "

Most people can distinguish between fantasy and reality. Honestly, who ever wrote that needs to take a step back from sloppy theorizing and experience a bit of the real world
 
Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

No, those mistakes put her at risk of becoming a victim. And she most certainly has a responsibility to make decisions that do NOT put her at risk.

It should be a valid assumption that if you get fall-down drunk you are at risk of any number of dangers...from alcohol poisoning, to drowning in your own vomit, to getting into a car w/a drunk driver, to serious injury, to rape.

The reactions in this thread is why it's frustrating to ever push this notion. Tucker and I did it in a thread a while back and every stereotype imaginable was placed on us because of what people want to assume and stereotype rather than anything we said.

On one hand, you DO have the people who are placing equal blame on the victim, or are actively minimizing the blame on the others ("16 year old boys think with their penis") while going over the top in the condemnation of the girl in this case. On the other hand, you have the folks who basically scream "YOU'RE BLAMING THE VICTIM" if you even go so far as to even suggest that a poor choice was made on their behalf. Debates about this become so much like those of Abortion and some others, where most involved simply stereotype anyone into whatever extreme most closely sounds like the persons argument.

It's part of the issue with rape in this country. At one time it was way over the top horrible how people would blame the woman, focus on the woman, minimize the mans actions, etc. But that caused such a hyper sensitivity to it where you can't even bring up common sense type of statements into the equation without people acting like you're supporting the rapist.

If you get fall down black out drunk then that means you choose to take actions that placed you at a higher risk for something seriously bad to happen to you. You say that after someone gets mugged and people nod their hands. You say that after someone gets their keys stolen and people nod their heads. You say that after someone has their friend put a photo of them on facebook and it causes them to get fired and people nod their heads. You say that after someone gets raped and by god you were slapping the rapist on the back saying "Good job bro, get her again!".

To the story itself, the guys getting off with only that much is ridiculous. Sometimes that grey area age in the late teens causes some major problems in terms of punishment, and this seems to be one of them. One of the things that pisses me off so much when people start throwing around the "supporting the rapist" type of accusations is that there's few things I hate more than people who would do this kind of thing. They're the utter scum of the earth, and it's affected a number of folks close to me in my life. I won't shed a tear if that sex offender label causes them significant problems the rest of their lives...they'll still be getting off easy.
 
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