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Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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I have loved ones with dyslexia and I am not insensitive to that.

You apparently have a much less severe case than those I am familiar with.

I am very fortunate because I have quite a good memory.
I had to memorize every word I learned to spell because I cannot sound them out.
I often double words when I write or I leave words out.
Even if I proofread before I hit send I often miss the doubled words or omitted words because my mind sees what I wanted to write not what I actually wrote.

I hope your loved ones don't get too discouraged by their dyslexia.
Please remind them that sometimes dyslexia can be thought of as a gift because a lot of people with dyslexia have talents in things other than reading, writing, and spelling.
 
I am very fortunate because I have quite a good memory.
I had to memorize every word I learned to spell because I cannot sound them out.
I often double words when I write or I leave words out.
Even if I proofread before I hit send I often miss the doubled words or omitted words because my mind sees what I wanted to write not what I actually wrote.

I hope your loved ones don't get too discouraged by their dyslexia.
Please remind them that sometimes dyslexia can be thought of as a gift because a lot of people with dyslexia have talents in things other than reading, writing, and spelling.

I must have some of it too because I routinely do almost all of those things.
 
Disagree. It's a human life we're talking about, not the choice to marry someone or smoke weed. I agree with libertarian philosophy 9 out 10 times but this issue is the one time I don't and the exact reason I don't claim libertarian as my lean. This isn't a choice that simply effects the decision maker (the mother). Another person is directly effected as well. And that person is at the mercy of the decision maker. A baby has no choice in who is carrying her therefore the carrier has the responsibility to carry until birth. Obviously, there are exceptions such as imminent death of the mother, imminent death of the baby.

Exactly...there are extenuating circumstances and bureaucrats like to paint legislation with a broad brush. On something like this...you can't be broad. There are issues that can arise...and in some states...it doesn't matter...still can't get an abortion. It is the reason I don't think politicians should decide abortion
 
Exactly...there are extenuating circumstances and bureaucrats like to paint legislation with a broad brush. On something like this...you can't be broad. There are issues that can arise...and in some states...it doesn't matter...still can't get an abortion. It is the reason I don't think politicians should decide abortion

Exactly.
Like the new North Dakota law which only allows for abortions until 6 weeks gestation.
North Dakota only has 1 abortion clinic so the woman has to arrange for an abortion, plan her trip to the clinic which might be hundreds of miles away , arrange for someone to take care of her children,if she has children all before she has even missed her period.

Oh, and by the way North Dakota does not make exceptions for rape, incest, Health of the woman, or fetal deformities even if the fetus dies before labor.

If a fetus dies a natural death before labor and is not expelled a doctor will usually perform an abortion ( yes, removing a dead fetus is called an abortion) to remove the fetus and fetal material before it becomes septic which could be fatal to the woman.
 
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Fetuses, zygote and embryos are not children...they live INSIDE the WOMB and are dependent on the woman for sustenance through the umbilical cord ATTACHED to the woman. Children don't have those same qualities.

Passengers on an aircraft flying above 12,000 feet are INSIDE the aircraft and are dependent on the aircraft for oxygen through cabin pressurization or oxygen masks if the latter fails.

Are they not human?
 
Passengers on an aircraft flying above 12,000 feet are INSIDE the aircraft and are dependent on the aircraft for oxygen through cabin pressurization or oxygen masks if the latter fails.

Are they not human?


That is a bad analogy as the aircraft is not a living being.
 
That is a bad analogy as the aircraft is not a living being.

Fair point, but I don't think that complete invalidates it. It may be a machine, but their lives still depend on it.

Why do they have to depend on a living being?
 
Fair point, but I don't think that complete invalidates it. It may be a machine, but their lives still depend on it.

Why do they have to depend on a living being?

Well it is a living being.(..the woman ) whose body is being used during a pregnancy for life support and she should be able to have a choice in that matter.

A women needs to be good health herself to be able to be a life support for the pregnancy.
When I was very ill during my pregnancy my health was depleted which not only risked my life but also put my pregnancy at risk.

No matter how healthy a woman is when she gets pregnant, the fact it uses the woman's oxygen and nutrients can put the woman's life at risk.

Even if the passengers are dependent on the oxygen in plane the use of that planes oxygen does not put the planes life in danger since the plane is not living.
 
500,000 women die each year from pregnancy and labor.
5,000,000 women are premanently crippled each year from pregnancy and labor.
They do not care.

But they do not believe women have a right to life. There is no santity of life for woman. Women are not human life. Women are just organic incubators for men's children. Nothing else. Rapists have rights in procreation. Women don't. That's God's law - or natural law - in their opinion.

All their platitudes originate from men. Men wrote the Bible. Men made the rules. The standards. Men overwhelming dominate every legislative body making these women-are-our-babymaking-slaves rules. Many women are raised with those values of men ground into them from their earliest childhood. Men write the rules. Rules that say they decide what risks women take. They decide that women must risk death for their children.

All their hollow lofty words of "santity of human life" and "life begins at conception" really go back to the premise that men rule women and once a man inpregnates a woman - regardless of her age and whether she consented or not - from that moment on he has total power over her - including life and death. It is evil men who made their slogans and platitudes. Rapist men. Men who treated women like slaves.

Wow! What a hysterical rant that was.

If it was a right-winger saying that it would be 'hate speech', but when it comes from leftists its just amusing.
 
500,000 women die each year from pregnancy and labor.
5,000,000 women are premanently crippled each year from pregnancy and labor.
They do not care.

In the world maybe, in the US they'd all be disabled or dead in ~10 years.
 
Passengers on an aircraft flying above 12,000 feet are INSIDE the aircraft and are dependent on the aircraft for oxygen through cabin pressurization or oxygen masks if the latter fails.

Are they not human?

What? What a silly analogy. We are talking about a ZEF INSIDE a human being. What does planes have to do with it? If the planes crashes, it doesn't die, and many of the people might live. Need to really work on comprehending what housing a parasite is all about.
 
It's not a baby. And the ONLY one affected by this pregnancy IS the woman and HER life. NO one else. YOU certainly are not. The STATE certainly is not. The state isn't giving the woman a house, car, great paying job with paid vacations and health care and a good neighborhood and good schools and college for the woman and her offspring. ERGO, the state and YOU have no rights in this decision.
How is it not a baby? Life begins at some point correct? So, by your theory, a mother can kill a fetus at any point up to and including minutes before birth?

The state has an obligation to protect all citizens. Not just one that made a poor choice to have sex with someone that wasn't going to stick around to help with the baby. It's called dealing with consequences of your actions. I understand that men get off easy in this deal. Totally understand. But that's the way it is. Women were blessed (or cursed depending upon who your talking to) with the ability to carry and give birth to other human beings. They need to think about that before they have unprotected sex with a partner.
 
In all honesty, standing up for human rights IS the libertarian philosophy on this one.

Being pro-abortion and claiming to be a "libertarian" is no different than being pro-slavery and claiming to be a "libertarian." It's directly at odds with what the philosophy is about, especially the principle of non-aggression and equal human rights.
I understand that most libertarians are "pro-life". However, they way in which most of them deal with it ie let the states handle it, goes against what I believe is the correct way to handle it. Killing a baby is killing a baby. No matter what level of gov't handles it. And I do not believe our country should allow ANY level of gov't to dictate that killing a baby is okay. There are VERY few things I will advocate for Federal gov't to be involved in. This is one of those VERY few things.
 
Exactly...there are extenuating circumstances and bureaucrats like to paint legislation with a broad brush. On something like this...you can't be broad. There are issues that can arise...and in some states...it doesn't matter...still can't get an abortion. It is the reason I don't think politicians should decide abortion
IMO, abortion is the murder of a human being in the early stage of it's developement. No civilized country should allow that. This is why it is so dangerous to trivialize sexual intercourse in the way our culture has. There are reactions to the action, one of which being pregnancy. Like I posted to another user, the woman has a responsibility to think of that before engaging in sex with someone. Like it or not, women have the burden in this deal. Men can get a woman pregnant and disappear without ever having to worry about the repercussions.

Abortion can be legislated. It merely takes level headed politicians to do so. So, in other words, we'll never see it happen.
 
IMO, abortion is the murder of a human being in the early stage of it's developement. No civilized country should allow that. This is why it is so dangerous to trivialize sexual intercourse in the way our culture has. There are reactions to the action, one of which being pregnancy. Like I posted to another user, the woman has a responsibility to think of that before engaging in sex with someone. Like it or not, women have the burden in this deal. Men can get a woman pregnant and disappear without ever having to worry about the repercussions.

Abortion can be legislated. It merely takes level headed politicians to do so. So, in other words, we'll never see it happen.

I hope you're wrong. I've thought a lot about the trivializing of sexual intercourse too. I contributed to it and to the general coarsening of society through casual swearing and etc., and now I regret it because I'm old enough to have both been a part of all that and to recognize the sad consequences of it.

It's very disheartening to read the posts in the Abortion forum here in which people state sincerely that just because you choose to have sex doesn't mean you choose to accept the biological reality that you could become a father or mother. The disconnect is bizarre.
 
IMO, abortion is the murder of a human being in the early stage of it's developement. No civilized country should allow that. This is why it is so dangerous to trivialize sexual intercourse in the way our culture has. There are reactions to the action, one of which being pregnancy. Like I posted to another user, the woman has a responsibility to think of that before engaging in sex with someone. Like it or not, women have the burden in this deal. Men can get a woman pregnant and disappear without ever having to worry about the repercussions.

Abortion can be legislated. It merely takes level headed politicians to do so. So, in other words, we'll never see it happen.

Bureaucrats always have ulterior motives.

North Dakota is a great example of why politicians shouldn't be involved in this at all. Abortion after 6 weeks is illegal regardless of the health of the child, or mother. Regardless whether she was raped.

They won't take the time and make common sense legislation so they shouldn't be involved in such a delicate matter.
 
I hope you're wrong. I've thought a lot about the trivializing of sexual intercourse too. I contributed to it and to the general coarsening of society through casual swearing and etc., and now I regret it because I'm old enough to have both been a part of all that and to recognize the sad consequences of it.

It's very disheartening to read the posts in the Abortion forum here in which people state sincerely that just because you choose to have sex doesn't mean you choose to accept the biological reality that you could become a father or mother. The disconnect is bizarre.
Great post. Both for its candor and tone. I agree with you about the disconnect. It's as if people don't realize that a child is a very real possibility if unprotected and promiscuous sex is practiced.
 
Bureaucrats always have ulterior motives.

North Dakota is a great example of why politicians shouldn't be involved in this at all. Abortion after 6 weeks is illegal regardless of the health of the child, or mother. Regardless whether she was raped.

They won't take the time and make common sense legislation so they shouldn't be involved in such a delicate matter.
So your solution instead is for innocent lives to be taken because politics is just too hard? That's the easy way out bro. You know I agree with you about politicians having ulterior motives. That doesn't mean we give up the fight.
 
So your solution instead is for innocent lives to be taken because politics is just too hard? That's the easy way out bro. You know I agree with you about politicians having ulterior motives. That doesn't mean we give up the fight.

The fight lies with the doctors...not the politicians. They have to make sure that an abortion is the right choice based on whatever the extenuating circumstance maybe. The doctors will have the obligation to make a choice (with the woman of course)....not the politician
 
How is it not a baby? Life begins at some point correct? So, by your theory, a mother can kill a fetus at any point up to and including minutes before birth?

The state has an obligation to protect all citizens. Not just one that made a poor choice to have sex with someone that wasn't going to stick around to help with the baby. It's called dealing with consequences of your actions. I understand that men get off easy in this deal. Totally understand. But that's the way it is. Women were blessed (or cursed depending upon who your talking to) with the ability to carry and give birth to other human beings. They need to think about that before they have unprotected sex with a partner.

There goes that great and wonderful strawmen you guys use.

I believe in Roe v Wade. PLEASE show me in Roe V Wade where an abortion may occur "minutes before birth". What a twist and contorted statement that is.

Then you go on after misrepresenting what I said, to make that old and tired and worn out that a pregnancy is something the "woman has to deal with the consequences of her actions". BS. Birth control does not always work. Sex is a good thing. Sex is enjoyable. There is not evil and "consequences" even from your GOD about having sex. It's was created to be enjoyed. If you haven't had the pleasure yet, I'm sorry for you.

The fetus is connected to the woman via an umbilical cord. And the fetus is INSIDE the woman. It's not living outside the woman. It is not a baby, that can be put in a crib and dad can feed it when it's hungry. It's inside the the human female, attached and taking food from the woman via a cord connected to them both.

Up to the end of the first trimester, the woman has a right to decide if SHE wants to be pregnant NOW, how many TIMES she wants to be pregnant and by WHOM. THAT is her responsibility. To have pregnancies she wants, WHEN she wants them, and how MANY she wants. It's not YOUR choice for her and her life, it's HERS.
 
So your solution instead is for innocent lives to be taken because politics is just too hard? That's the easy way out bro. You know I agree with you about politicians having ulterior motives. That doesn't mean we give up the fight.

Why is it you on the right call a fetus an "innocent life" and children of the poor who are facing cutbacks as "abusing the system"?

I just don't understand why the right pretends that abortion is anything more than an anti-women's rights issue.
 
I understand that most libertarians are "pro-life". However, they way in which most of them deal with it ie let the states handle it, goes against what I believe is the correct way to handle it. Killing a baby is killing a baby. No matter what level of gov't handles it. And I do not believe our country should allow ANY level of gov't to dictate that killing a baby is okay. There are VERY few things I will advocate for Federal gov't to be involved in. This is one of those VERY few things.

Ah, but your republican party has done that numerous of times already in cutting back health care for the elderly and poor, in cutting back foodstamps, in creating a housing mess which throws people into homelessness, in sending jobs overseas creating more poverty in our nation, in refusing to raise the minimum wage. Your party controlled the Congress from 1994 - 2006 and legislated a LOT of laws that killed babies. Babies are humans OUTSIDE the womb AFTER the gestation period. NOT fetuses. YOUR party even killed women seeking abortions that were illegal and NOT performed in a medical setting. You really ignore the babies in the US and cry for a fetus which you will end up NOT caring about once it is is born.

How the right tries to continue to pretend that their anti-choice stand is an anti-women's right stand, is just silly. We ALL know you HATE babies and that your REAL agenda is to take power away from women in deciding their own lives.
 
Great post. Both for its candor and tone. I agree with you about the disconnect. It's as if people don't realize that a child is a very real possibility if unprotected and promiscuous sex is practiced.

What a condescending view. You really think that ALL of the women in this nation are not aware of a pregnancy if they have sex? You must be kidding. You know so few women or the women you know you choose because of their ignorance.

Pregnancy is a REAL possibility under the best of birth control. How many pregnancies occur from condoms, especially now that birth control for women is all but banned.

Abortion is a choice a woman makes because SHE is the one who decides WHEN to be pregnant, how many TIMES to be pregnant and by whom.

Apparently you are not aware that in order to become pregnant, you need a man a lot of the times. NOT always, but a lot of the times. Sex is a good thing. Sometimes, even the most protected get pregnant. That's why we have abortion. To allow the woman to enjoy sex and if the protection fails, to abort the zygote or embryo or fetus.
 
IMO, abortion is the murder of a human being in the early stage of it's developement. No civilized country should allow that. This is why it is so dangerous to trivialize sexual intercourse in the way our culture has. There are reactions to the action, one of which being pregnancy. Like I posted to another user, the woman has a responsibility to think of that before engaging in sex with someone. Like it or not, women have the burden in this deal. Men can get a woman pregnant and disappear without ever having to worry about the repercussions.

Abortion can be legislated. It merely takes level headed politicians to do so. So, in other words, we'll never see it happen.


YOUR VIEW OF A "CIVILIZED NATION": Male dominated legistors forcing a 12 year old girl raped by her father to carry brain-stem only triplets to full term and birth. That is "civilized" to you. I say is is total sadism and purely evil amorality. Your view of a civilized society towards women is the Taliban.

And, of course, you also believe you can ge a woman pregnant and disappear without repercussions because you believe you should be in total control over women - bizarrely claiming you getting a womn pregnant and then disappearing you being "civilized" - and lots of fun for you. What you actually make is a case for legally requiring men such as you portray in your message to be forcibly castrated by law to protect society and, obviously, all women.

Human development does not begin at conception. It begins with the formation of sperm and egg. The LIE that it begins at conception is another convenience false reasoning created for the convenience of irresponsible, amoral men.
 
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