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Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

Muddy Creek said:
No, there's nothing immoral in an abortion. Even with the bible.

God's Not Pro-Life



God was for abortion and did not obviously consider it life. Christ never spoke out against it. If it were immoral, Christ would have labeled it so.
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You abortion sites have the scriptures handy, do they?

Do you accept the idea that the Bible is the Word of God?
 
Grant said:
You abortion sites have the scriptures handy, do they?

Do you accept the idea that the Bible is the Word of God?
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Those are biblical quotes from the Bible. Do YOU believe the Bible is the Word of God? Would you concede then that abortion is not immoral?
 
Muddy Creek said:
Those are biblical quotes from the Bible. Do YOU believe the Bible is the Word of God? Would you concede then that abortion is not immoral?
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It's not me who's quoting the Bible, it's you.

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?
 
Grant said:
It's not me who's quoting the Bible, it's you.

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?
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It's you saying calling a ZEF a ZEF is immoral.

Grant said:
We do not generally refer to babies in these terms. We call them babies.

But you don't feel comfortable calling them babies, or even alive, because that suggests something immoral is going on, the taking of a babies life.

So you use the terms zygote, embryo and fetus in order to downplay the fact that you are taking a life.

But call it what you will, it's still taking a life and it is terribly hard to justify such an act. It is hugely immoral, and some would say evil.
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So you tell me, is the bible the infallible "moral" word of God?
 
There are tens of Millions of Christian and Jewish people whose faith groups and organizations have publicly stated that abortions are sometimes an acceptable option, and should remain legal.

Pro-choice groups:

Liberal and some mainline denominations: In general, these either promote a woman's right to choose an abortion, or are relatively silent on the matter. A number of liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish faith groups and organizations have publicly stated that abortions are sometimes an acceptable option, and should remain legal. According to lists prepared by The Secular Web and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, they include, in alphabetic order: 1

American Baptist Churches-USA (see below),
American Ethical Union,
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee,
American Jewish Committee,
American Jewish Congress,
Central Conference of American Rabbis,
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),
Council of Jewish Federations,
Episcopal Church (USA),
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
Na'Amat USA,
National Council of Jewish Women,
Presbyterian Church (USA),
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Union of American Hebrew Congregations,
Unitarian Universalist Association,
United Church of Christ,
United Methodist Church,
United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism.

Religious groups other than denominations:

Catholics for Free Choice,
Episcopal Women's Caucus,
Evangelicals for Choice,
Jewish Women International,
Lutheran Women's Caucus,
North American Federation of Temple Youth,
Unitarian Universalist Women's Federation,
Women of Reform Judaism,
Women's American ORT,
Women's Caucus Church of the Brethren,
Women's League for Conservative Judaism
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Current abortion beliefs of religious groups
 
Muddy Creek said:
No, there's nothing
immoral in an abortion. Even with the bible.

God's Not Pro-Life



God was for abortion and did not obviously consider it life. Christ never spoke out against it. If it were immoral, Christ would have labeled it so.
Click to expand...

Ahh, more selective old testamemt justification from the left.

Abortion stops a human beating heart everytime, but of course the left likes to focus on nonsensical gun legislation to save the children.

Old Biblical references aside, its still killing a human.
 
Fenton said:
Ahh, more selective old testamemt justification from the left.

Abortion stops a human beating heart everytime, but of course the left likes to focus on nonsensical gun legislation to save the children.

Old Biblical references aside, its still killing a human.
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"The devil can cite scripture for his purpose". W.S.
 
A little history of The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice which includes many religious groups including:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA


RCRC was founded in 1973 to safeguard the newly won constitutional right to privacy in decisions about abortion.
The Coalition founders were clergy and lay leaders from mainstream religions, many of whom had provided women with referrals to safe abortion services before the Supreme Court legalized abortion in Roe v. Wade.
The founders believed that there would be at most a ten-year struggle to secure the right to choose. In fact the struggle is far from over. It has changed and intensified, and the stakes are growing.

Today, the Religious Coalition comprises national organizations from major faiths and traditions and religiously affiliated and independent religious organizations, affiliates throughout the country, the national Clergy for Choice network, Spiritual Youth for Reproductive Freedom, The National Black Church Initiative, La Iniciativa Latina and individuals who support reproductive choice and religious freedom. We have a strong presence on Capitol Hill, working for policies to ensure reproductive healthservices are available to all, regardless of income and to strengthen reproductive justice.

While our member organizations are religiously and theologically diverse, they are unified in the commitment to preserve reproductive choice as a basic part of religious liberty.

Our rational, healing perspective looks beyond the bitter abortion debate to seek solutions to pressing problems such as unintended pregnancy, the spread of HIV/AIDS, inadequate health care and health insurance, and the severe reduction in reproductive health care services.

We support access to sex education, family planning and contraception, affordable child care and health care, and adoption services as well as safe, legal, abortion services, regardless of income. As an organization committed to reproductive justice, we work for public policies that ensure the medical, economic, and educational resources necessary for healthy families and communities that are equipped to nurture children in peace and love.
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RCRC - Dedicated to Reproductive Justice
 
minnie616 said:
A little history of The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice which includes many religious groups including:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA



RCRC - Dedicated to Reproductive Justice
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Who cares?

It was Muddy Creek who brought religion into the debate with his quotations from the Bible.

Is God on his side? He seems to think so.
 
Grant said:
Who cares?

It was Muddy Creek who brought religion into the debate with his quotations from the Bible.

Is God on his side? He seems to think so.
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It is important to be aware that tens of millions of pro choice people are also Christians and / or Jewish people and that many Christians and/ or Jewish people and leaders were referring woman to safe ( for the woman) abortion services even before Roe vs Wade.

Many in the RCRC do NOT believe that life/ensoulment begins with conception.
We believe that life/ensoulment begins later in the pregnancy or at birth.
 
minnie616 said:
It is important to be aware that tens of millions of pro choice people are also Christians and / or Jewish people and that many Christians and/ or Jewish people and leaders were referring woman to safe ( for the woman) abortion services even before Roe vs Wade.

Many in the RCRC do NOT believe that life/ensoulment begins with conception.
We believe that life/ensoulment begins later in the pregnancy or at birth.
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What you believe is of little interest. What we know is that life begins at 'conception', which is what the word actually means.
 
Grant said:
1.)It's not baby speak either.Zef - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Then why are you using it?



Then why be so reluctant to use the word 'baby'?
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1.) 100% right its not "baby", baby speak is "goo ga ga" speak but it is a factually used acronym by many people including doctors and medical professions LMAO
ZEF - Zygote, Embryo, Fetus
ZEF - Zygote Embryo Fetus
Zygote Embryo Fetus - What does ZEF stand for? Acronyms and abbreviations by the Free Online Dictionary.

so again you calling it nazi speak is your nothing more than biased dishonesty and empty rhetoric that nobody objective falls for LOL

2.) LMAO common sense
why do people say NASA? LAPD? SCOTUS, POTUS?


what are most acronyms uses? convenience and efficiency instead of say zygote, embryo, fetus

3.) two common sense reason

3A.) see answer number 2
3B.) using the word baby in certain discussions would make some of the topics become OPINION or factually wrong. It would not be proper usage per its definition LOL

Baby is a subjective word and does not factually apply to all stages of the ZEF. Most definitions dont even allow its usage for anything preborn unless its SLANG and the others more specifically say fetus which excludes zygote and embryo

and other questions you want answered that just factually prove you wrong again :D LMAO
 
Grant said:
What you believe is of little interest. What we know is that life begins at 'conception', which is what the word actually means.
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You think life begins with conception but it is not fact.
 
Grant said:
What you believe is of little interest. What we know is that life begins at 'conception', which is what the word actually means.
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actually many scientist and biologist disagree and they say the life never stopped since the egg and sperm before the ZEF was also life, the feel its a continuance not a start, since there was no stop

so no, we dont KNOW when it begins, thats just the OPINION you have

its also meaningless to the abortion debate
 
Grant said:
Do you understand what the word "conception" means?
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yes do you? LMAO because NOTHING in that definition factually supports you, the facts simply disagree with you but its always funny watching you dance around and trying to spin things and dodge questions with questions.
 
Grant said:
What you believe is of little interest. What we know is that life begins at 'conception', which is what the word actually means.
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No, that's not true. Cells begin at conception, but that is not life. That is cells dependent on the life the woman has.
 
The cell is the basic structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of life that is classified as a living thing...

Cell (biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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There is a tremendous consensus in the scientific community about when life begins. This is hardly controversial. If the claim were made that life was discovered on another planet, for example, there are well-defined criteria to which we could refer to conclusively determine whether the claim was accurate. How do scientists distinguish between life and non-life?

A scientific textbook called "Basics of Biology" gives five characteristics of living things; these five criteria are found in all modern elementary scientific textbooks:

1. Living things are highly organized.

2. All living things have an ability to acquire materials and energy.

3. All living things have an ability to respond to their environment.

4. All living things have an ability to reproduce.

5. All living things have an ability to adapt.

According to this elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte. From this moment, the being is highly organized, has the ability to acquire materials and energy, has the ability to respond to his or her environment, has the ability to adapt, and has the ability to reproduce (the cells divide, then divide again, etc., and barring pathology and pending reproductive maturity has the potential to reproduce other members of the species). Non-living things do not do these things. Even before the mother is aware that she is pregnant, a distinct, unique life has begun his or her existence inside her.

Furthermore, that life is unquestionably human. A human being is a member of the species homo sapiens. Human beings are products of conception, which is when a human male sperm unites with a human female oocyte (egg). When humans procreate, they don't make non-humans like slugs, monkeys, cactuses, bacteria, or any such thing. Emperically-verifiable proof is as close as your nearest abortion clinic: send a sample of an aborted fetus to a laboratory and have them test the DNA to see if its human or not. Genetically, a new human being comes into existence from the earliest moment of conception.

when does life begin?
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So, I would say that all the word smithing, and dancing around reference to what it is that is being aborted/killed within the womb is indeed to alleviate the conscience of the mother killing her unborn child for the sake of contraceptive purposes. We don't see people with a clear conscience try so hard to redefine truths.
 
j-mac said:
Define life.
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Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.

Current Scientific Views of When Human Life Begins

Current perspectives on when human life begins range from fertilization to gastrulation to birth and even after. Here is a brief examination of each of the major perspectives with arguments for and against each of the positions. Contemporary scientific literature proposes a variety of answers to the question of when human life begins.
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Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.


Metabolic View:

The metabolic view takes the stance that a single developmental moment marking the beginning of human life does not exist. Both the sperm and egg cells should individually be considered to be units of life in the same respect as any other single or multicellular organism. Thus, neither the union of two gametes nor any developmental point thereafter should be designated as the beginning of new life.
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Genetic View:

The genetic view takes the position that the creation of a genetically unique individual is the moment at which life begins. This event is often described as taking place at fertilization, thus fertilization marks the beginning of human life.
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Embryological View:

In contrast to the genetic view, the embryological view states that human life originates not at fertilization but rather at gastrulation. Human embryos are capable of splitting into identical twins as late as 12 days after fertilization resulting in the development of separate individuals with unique personalities and different souls, according to the religious view. Therefore, properties governing individuality are not set until after gastrulation.
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Neurological view:

Although most cultures identify the qualities of humanity as different from other living organisms, there is also a universal view that all forms of life on earth are finite. Implicit in the later view is the reality that all life has both a beginning and an end, usually identified as some form of death. The debate surrounding the exact moment marking the beginning of a human life contrasts the certainty and consistency with which the instant of death is described. Contemporary American (and Japanese) society defines death as the loss of the pattern produced by a cerebral electroencephalogram (EEG). If life and death are based upon the same standard of measurement, then the beginning of human life should be recognized as the time when a fetus acquires a recognizable EEG pattern. This acquisition occurs approximately 24- 27 weeks after the conception of the fetus and is the basis for the neurological view of the beginning of human life.
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http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf

The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.

The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.
 
Last edited:
AGENT J said:
actually many scientist and biologist disagree and they say the life never stopped since the egg and sperm before the ZEF was also life, the feel its a continuance not a start, since there was no stop

so no, we dont KNOW when it begins, thats just the OPINION you have

its also meaningless to the abortion debate
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Except that when the two join there is a unique new set of DNA that didn't exist before that. That is a physiological FACT.
To one who is utmost concerned with scientific FACT it is very IRONIC that you would dismiss this FACT as irrelevant to the abortion debate. I can see that you really aren't debating scientific fact at all, but rather your OPINION on what moral value this new unique life should be given.
 
minnie616 said:
Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.


Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.









http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf

The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.

The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.
Click to expand...


Ok then, Let me ask you, A woman is carrying her "potential child", is at about 20 weeks gestation, and is confronted by a criminal looking to rob her. During the course of the crime he shoots her in the stomach and kills not only her "potential child" but in the course she bleeds out and dies as well.

They catch the criminal, how many murders should he be charged with?
 
minnie616 said:
Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.


Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.









http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf

The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.

The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.
Click to expand...

This is interesting.

Would it be okay with you if I use it to start a new thread and poll question?
 
j-mac said:
Ok then, Let me ask you, A woman is carrying her "potential child", is at about 20 weeks gestation, and is confronted by a criminal looking to rob her. During the course of the crime he shoots her in the stomach and kills not only her "potential child" but in the course she bleeds out and dies as well.

They catch the criminal, how many murders should he be charged with?
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If the state has a fetal homicide law they can charge the criminal with two , otherwise he/she would be charged with 1 murder and perhaps assult or whatever else under the law they could charge the criminal with.
 
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