• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Woman fired for having sex

notquiteright said:
I believe contract law applies across the board. Do secular schools have contracts where teachers can be fired for having sex out of wedlock? Can a secular school fire a teacher for cohabitating.

THAT is my means test, if the Church wishes to engage in secular enterprizes, hospitals, general education schools they conform with secular world.

What amazes me is the idea ANY Church, much less a Catholic one fails the Jesus test. Jesus didn't cast out the sinner, the prositute, the leper.
Click to expand...

I'm not an apologist for any Church, but did this institution cast her out? Or did they simply hold her to the terms of her contract? And yes, a Catholic school has the right to discriminate in its hiring based on the teachings of the Church, whether you like it or not - this right is constitutionally based and is affirmed in the Civil Rights Act passed into law and signed by President Johnson.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Again, she should have just claimed spontaneous pregnancy, perhaps by the Holy Spirit. Christians believe that is possible.
Click to expand...

The lack of that pesky hymen would probably stand in the way of that claim.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
That excuse only worked ONE time - you can't reuse it.
Click to expand...

Sure she can. It's a Christian school. They can't prove it didn't happen that way short of an exam to see if she really is a virgin which is likely outside their comfort zone. We've been waiting a long time for Him to come back.

And yes, I am a Christian.
 
clownboy said:
The lack of that pesky hymen would probably stand in the way of that claim.
Click to expand...

A) She doesn't have to prove she has a hymen, because that would be a violation of her medical rights.

B) She may have had sex prior to signing the contract, or perhaps lost her hymen in gym class or riding a horse.

Yeah, I would have gone with "immaculate conception." There is a precedent, you know....
 
Dittohead not! said:
She was terminated for having violated an agreement she signed as a condition of employment. It's hard to fault anyone for that.
Click to expand...

You can if the agreement was draconian, unconscionable, and not within the rights of the employer to make as a condition for something as necessary as employment.
 
clownboy said:
....Btw, you missed the implication of what the second girl said. She didn't object to the rules or the contract, she just thought the woman should be given another chance.
Click to expand...

I heard that some Christian sects have a belief in the value of forgiveness.
 
Paschendale said:
You can if the agreement was draconian, unconscionable, and not within the rights of the employer to make as a condition for something as necessary as employment.
Click to expand...

I suggest they go after the people who held her down and forced the poor woman to sign the contract and enter into servitude. She had so many other employment options, but these brutes forced her hand - shame on them, they should be executed, perhaps by drone strike.
 
Hard Truth said:
I heard that some Christian sects have a belief in the value of forgiveness.
Click to expand...

I'm sure they forgive her, wish her luck in her search for a new job, and encourage her to be honest next time and remember that personal actions have personal consequences.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
A) She doesn't have to prove she has a hymen, because that would be a violation of her medical rights.

B) She may have had sex prior to signing the contract, or perhaps lost her hymen in gym class or riding a horse.

Yeah, I would have gone with "immaculate conception." There is a precedent, you know....
Click to expand...

Silly, and no, there is no precedent. Do you actually think they just took Mary's word for it? You've bought the victorian version of biblical history. Priests of the day did indeed check for the hymen. And in this day, if she makes such a claim she will have to produce the proof.

But of course all this is specious as she openly admits to having violated the terms of her employment contract. She just doesn't believe it should apply to her.
 
Hard Truth said:
I heard that some Christian sects have a belief in the value of forgiveness.
Click to expand...

Please, at least read the thread before you comment. All this has been covered.

It goes:
Admission of sin
Repentence
Ask for forgiveness
 
CanadaJohn said:
Why do some people, usually on the left of the spectrum, feel that there should be no consequences to their own actions? I don't care whether the provisions of the contract she signed were stupid or not - I presume no one held a gun to her head and made her sign - she could have walked away and tried suing for discriminatory hiring practices or some other silly reason, but the minute she signed the contract she took responsibility and committed to the provisions. Breach of contract is breach of contract - period.
Click to expand...

The point is the contract was a bad one, not that she did not violate it. The idea that an employer should be able to regulate what people do when not at work that does not affect job performance is scarey.
 
clownboy said:
No, but morals clauses do exist in secular contracts and they are enforceable. So it passes that means test. Couple things, first, Jesus is the gold standard. Being the son of God the bar is set a bit higher. And second, Jesus may not have cast out the sinner, but he did counsel repentence and did speak against those who did not admit their sin.
Click to expand...

Moral clauses do exist but like I said, are not limitless. Do secular schools have these same moral clauses? So no it doesn't pass any test.

Agreed but he did not shun them, firing is a form of shunning. While I never want to imply these Church school officials would ever be mistaken for Jesus I do think they have forgotten the message.
 
Considering the high unemployment rates, I don't think any employment agreement can be considered 100% voluntary. Not that I'm saying that all of these contracts should be considered invalid.
 
Ikari said:
Of course they can. I don't know any off hand that do, but it's within their ability.

Everyone has right to contract.
Click to expand...

You are dodging around a bit...where did I say the Chuch School can't use contracts to hire secular employees? WHAT is in the contract is the issue at hand.

FYI you are clueless on what a secular school can include in a contract...legally that is.... :peace
 
JayDubya said:
How could it NOT be legal? On what basis would one be precluded from a voluntary contract of employment?
Click to expand...

Substantive unconscionability?

unconscionability of a contract that arises from the terms of the contract and esp. from terms that are found to be one-sided, unjust, or overly harsh
Click to expand...

I would say a contract that forbids legal sexual contact is unjust and overly harsh to say the least..... but that is why I am asking. There are principles in contract law that protects the "weak" party.. in this case the woman against abuses of the "strong" party... you cant sign over your life for example and so on.

It is an interesting case to say the least.. and I hope it goes through the court system to get a clarification.
 
Redress said:
The point is the contract was a bad one, not that she did not violate it. The idea that an employer should be able to regulate what people do when not at work that does not affect job performance is scarey.
Click to expand...

And yet it's always been the case. Morals clauses in employment contracts, AFAIK, have been with us since the beginning of our country. So it's a scary you've been living with your entire life.
 
clownboy said:
The lack of that pesky hymen would probably stand in the way of that claim.
Click to expand...

so now were gonna have a clause saying the church can check the hymen?

NICE
 
Last edited:
notquiteright said:
Moral clauses do exist but like I said, are not limitless. Do secular schools have these same moral clauses? So no it doesn't pass any test.
Click to expand...

Nope. That's not the means test. Do other religious employers have these same morals clauses - that woud be the means test.

notquiteright said:
Agreed but he did not shun them, firing is a form of shunning. While I never want to imply these Church school officials would ever be mistaken for Jesus I do think they have forgotten the message.
Click to expand...

Not quite accurate. He did indeed shun and call for the shunning of those who were unrepentant sinners (the moneychangers at the temple for example).
 
It seems to me like the prevailing attitude in the country regarding contracts has evolved into just a temporary document that you sign for immediate gratification with no intention of fulfilling. This ranges from those taking an oath to uphold the laws of the land with no intention of doing so, through people who purchase homes way beyond their means and then whine when they cannot pay for them. Sandra Fluck was praised by the dem congress in standing up against Georgetown U a Catholic university which gave Ms. Fluck a very desirable scholarship, and then demanding that they give her $3000/year in contraceptives. And this, a clear case of a violation of a contract, and being presented as a case of being dismissed for having sex and getting pregnant. Not so, she could have all the sex she wanted, just not working for a fundamental church organization.

Contracts are agreements to do certain things in exchange for certain other things. They do mean something.
 
clownboy said:
Please, at least read the thread before you comment. All this has been covered.

It goes:
Admission of sin
Repentence
Ask for forgiveness
Click to expand...


and that's your interpretation. To someone else, it might be different.
 
madman said:
so now were gonna have a clause saying the church and check the hymen?

NICE
Click to expand...

Don't need a clause for that. If you're that silly to make such a claim, you have to back it up - then and now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom