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Pregnant Teen Wins Abortion Battle

What if it was old school days - the parents said she could have the baby, but she'd have to give it up for abortion?

Babies, as we all know, are massively expensive. Maybe the parents don't have the finances to pay for another baby.
Even if the boy's parents agree to pay for half of everything.....

What are the rights of the "grandparents" here?

Since they will foot a good deal of the finances for a child they did not want or agree to have?

Are they SOL simply because their child did something stupid?

Yea this reminds me of those laws that require you to take care of elder family members, regardless of if they pissed away all their money or not.
Why should one person be completely responsible for another, when they're legally allowed to do what they want.

It transfers liability to a non fault party.
 
Actually, you just further articulated my argument. Since Pregnancy is a choice, then the minor can not be forced to carry to term. However, since we're talking about minors, incapable of truly understating the responsibility and unable to provide on their own, then the parents can still insist the she NOT carry to term. She is free to get pregnant again when she is an Adult.

You don't seem to understand the meaning of "choice". Choice means the pregnant woman is the sole person on the face of this earth who decides whether to have the baby or not. The mothers age and financial situation are irrelevant, her basic human rights trump any wishes of the parent or your political ideology.

With that idiotic analogy, I guess you want to get rid of logic and honesty. And find me a lower-income child that can live 18 years on just food stamps from the government.

The United States government spends more money on defense, social security or medicare than we do on raising children. We can entirely fix our deficit problem without committing any gross violations of human rights. Your argument is absurd and morally indefensible.

Why, an abortion of an unwanted, severely deformed or retarded child is better for mother, child, and society.

Sometimes that may be the case, but that isn't the point. People have rights in this country. For example, I think society would be better off without you spouting your political views, but I don't call for the government to sew your mouth shut because it would violate your freedom of speech.


How is it abusive to say don't have more babies than we can possibly feed or care for? -- That's compassion, reason, intelligence.

U.S. births are currently at replacement level, there is hardly a crisis of babies we can't feed or care for.

You should see a movie called Idiocracy.

You do realize that basing public policy on a comedy film is exactly the kind of stupidity that the movie makes fun of right?
 
Yea this reminds me of those laws that require you to take care of elder family members, regardless of if they pissed away all their money or not.
Why should one person be completely responsible for another, when they're legally allowed to do what they want.

It transfers liability to a non fault party.

Because most human beings don't see "let them die in the street" as being a reasonable option.
 
What?????? Since when is a car and a cellphone "essential"?? What planet are you on? Certainly not earth.

Didn't say they were Maggie, and I believe you misread that.

There are a lot of things parents can legally coerce their children to do by withholding non-essentials, but this isn't one of them.

Here's a good example, spousal support. The courts decide spousal support based upon what the spouse is accustomed to in the marriage. That's why some spouses get 200 a month and some get 20,000. The phone and car (which were the custom in this case) were ONLY being withheld because they wished to compel her to an abortion.
 
It isn't the court's legal right to determine whether or not a child may be "punished" or what constitutes "punishment" unless and until such actions constitute clearly defined abuse.

Taking her car, which is likely not in her name and thus not her property, is absolutely within the parents' rights.

Easy fix. Remove the fuse for the computer.

"Sorry honey, I don't know why your car won't start."
 
Because most human beings don't see "let them die in the street" as being a reasonable option.

Who said that was ok?
Nice that you put words in my mouth.

There is a fundamental problem with requiring others who have the ability to ruin themselves and make you completely liable for it.
The state doesn't remove their right for them to continue to incur costs, etc, with you being the person who has to pay for it.

And what happens if that puts you in the streets?
Whose rights are more important?
 
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This is only a story because the pro-choice crowd is appalled by her choice.

I'm late to this thread and I'm certain this repulsive statement has already been shredded by others. Let me state that you are wrong on so many levels. The entire heart of being pro-choice is choice. No pregnant woman should ever be forced to bring a pregnancy she does not want to term... and no pregnant woman should ever be forced to terminate a pregnancy she wants. Choice. It's a beautiful thing.
 
I'm late to this thread and I'm certain this repulsive statement has already been shredded by others. Let me state that you are wrong on so many levels. The entire heart of being pro-choice is choice. No pregnant woman should ever be forced to bring a pregnancy she does not want to term... and no pregnant woman should ever be forced to terminate a pregnancy she wants. Choice. It's a beautiful thing.

Being late to this thread, you may want to review some of the posts to get a flavor for what seems to be important to some posters. I, personally, find it curious that those who claim to support a woman's choice, when it involves keeping the child, also favor a parent's ability to be vindictive and petty towards their child when dealing with that choice.

I'm sure if the daughter had chosen to abort the child and her parents reacted to that choice by taking away her car and other previously enjoyed privileges, those who favor choice would be attacking the parents here, not supporting them for exercising their "parental rights".

The thing about being pro-choice, which I am, is that you have to respect the choice, accept the choice, even when you hate the choice. So, with respect, you can save your lecture for others.
 
I'm pro choice and I fully support her being able to make her own decision and believe that her parents are in the wrong. Can you find me a single pro-choice person that has argued that the parents should be able to force her to get an abortion or that she shouldn't have the right to choose?

I might lean that way. I haven't given the issue much thought, but my knee-jerk reaction is to give control to the parents when discussing such decisions and minors
 
Being late to this thread, you may want to review some of the posts to get a flavor for what seems to be important to some posters. I, personally, find it curious that those who claim to support a woman's choice, when it involves keeping the child, also favor a parent's ability to be vindictive and petty towards their child when dealing with that choice.

I'm sure if the daughter had chosen to abort the child and her parents reacted to that choice by taking away her car and other previously enjoyed privileges, those who favor choice would be attacking the parents here, not supporting them for exercising their "parental rights".

The thing about being pro-choice, which I am, is that you have to respect the choice, accept the choice, even when you hate the choice. So, with respect, you can save your lecture for others.

Abortion is a human rights battle. It's a small portion of the greater picture really. You have a group who wants the discretion to take away life based on a personal decision, you have a group that wants to preserve life, regardless of personal decisions, and you have the unborn victim, who is subject to the decisions of others, with no voice of their own to add. Democracy at work. Taking advantage of the voiceless.

In general, you have the Godless who would make decisions over life never realizing they themselves would be god.
 
Abortion is a human rights battle. It's a small portion of the greater picture really. You have a group who wants the discretion to take away life based on a personal decision, you have a group that wants to preserve life, regardless of personal decisions, and you have the unborn victim, who is subject to the decisions of others, with no voice of their own to add. Democracy at work. Taking advantage of the voiceless.

In general, you have the Godless who would make decisions over life never realizing they themselves would be god.

I appreciate your view, but I don't think those who so broadly favor abortion are such deep thinkers - while almost all people favor abortion when the life of the mother is at stake, the progression from that to abortion on demand is one that follows western civilization's trend towards individual hedonistic "rights". There is no big picture for such people, it's all about "what I want, and I want it now".

That said, I don't believe that government should be in the pro or anti abortion business, one way or another - it is a personal choice - I very much respect individual choice while I also reserve the right to abhor the choice.
 
Being late to this thread, you may want to review some of the posts to get a flavor for what seems to be important to some posters. I, personally, find it curious that those who claim to support a woman's choice, when it involves keeping the child, also favor a parent's ability to be vindictive and petty towards their child when dealing with that choice.

I'm sure if the daughter had chosen to abort the child and her parents reacted to that choice by taking away her car and other previously enjoyed privileges, those who favor choice would be attacking the parents here, not supporting them for exercising their "parental rights".

The thing about being pro-choice, which I am, is that you have to respect the choice, accept the choice, even when you hate the choice. So, with respect, you can save your lecture for others.

With respect, no I will not. You made a statement, based upon your personal opinion, that I found repulsive and wrong. I responded to that post, based upon my personal opinion, as to why I found it repulsive and wrong. If you don't want to be "lectured"... otherwise known as disagreement... then I suggest, again with respect, that as long as you post on a debate forum, you will be "lectured/disagreed" with on a fairly frequent basis. That is, after all, why we are here! :lol:
 
I honestly don't know what is right or wrong anymore. This situation is so messed up.

Both sides are wrong. I can't even put my finger on it. I think the coercion of the parents or the reaction of the courts all suck. I just don't know anymore. What the hell is going on today? What happened to frigging black and white, wrong and right. It's all grey area's and it stinks.

I want my old America back with all it's faults and prejudices. At least we knew what we stood for and what was right. Now days who gives a squat anymore we can just sue and blame someone else for everything, ridicules.

I am glad I am older because I don't want to see this place in another 30 years.

/rant
 
With respect, no I will not. You made a statement, based upon your personal opinion, that I found repulsive and wrong. I responded to that post, based upon my personal opinion, as to why I found it repulsive and wrong. If you don't want to be "lectured"... otherwise known as disagreement... then I suggest, again with respect, that as long as you post on a debate forum, you will be "lectured/disagreed" with on a fairly frequent basis. That is, after all, why we are here! :lol:

Generally speaking, debate and disagreement offers an opposing view of an opinion stated by another, with some basis or rationale for that disagreement - it doesn't simply offer an emotional brain fart solely for effect - at least, not since I left highschool several decades ago.

So, dear, you can be repulsed all you want but you in no way proved I was wrong. And yes, you are correct, this is a public forum and people are free to engage with whomever they choose. I'm still new here, so I'm still learning who to ignore - but I am learning.
 
Generally speaking, debate and disagreement offers an opposing view of an opinion stated by another, with some basis or rationale for that disagreement - it doesn't simply offer an emotional brain fart solely for effect - at least, not since I left highschool several decades ago.

So, dear, you can be repulsed all you want but you in no way proved I was wrong. And yes, you are correct, this is a public forum and people are free to engage with whomever they choose. I'm still new here, so I'm still learning who to ignore - but I am learning.

I'm not your "dear". Condescention is not your friend. My view that the daughter's choice to bring the child to term should have been respected is in no way an "emotional brain fart." Yes, you're new here, and with every post you make you are revealing to long-time DP posters what value and relevance you will contribute to this forum. Or not.
 
Abortion is a human rights battle. It's a small portion of the greater picture really. You have a group who wants the discretion to take away life based on a personal decision, you have a group that wants to preserve life, regardless of personal decisions, and you have the unborn victim, who is subject to the decisions of others, with no voice of their own to add. Democracy at work. Taking advantage of the voiceless.

In general, you have the Godless who would make decisions over life never realizing they themselves would be god.

Where are the rights of the father in all of this?
 
This is an interesting abortion issue. It touches on a few critical issues that have been brought up repeatedly in other abortion debate threads, specifically: 1) right of the woman/young mother to choose; 2) limits of responsibility/legal authority of the biological father to the unborn child; 3) limit of the parent's legal responsibility to the teenaged mother(/father).

IMO, the parents are both right and wrong in this case. Yes, they have every right to insist that their daughter take responsibility for her actions, i.e., having unprotected sex resulting in an unexpected pregnancy. But they're wrong in taking their daughter's car away assuming, of course, that their daughter owns the vehicle.

The parent's certainly have every right to be upset with their daughter. As parents, we try as best we can to "train them up in the way they should go". A large part of that training involves teaching our children about sex and the consequences that come with taking part in this very personal, emotional, physical act. Therefore, it's understandable if the parents are angry at their daughter for violating their trust in her that she would do the right thing and protect herself against an unwanted pregnancy of which the first step is abstinence; and if you can't abstain from having sex the next best thing is to take precautions and use birth control - condoms anyone?

Clearly, the parents are upset about the whole situation and rightly so. Legally, their hands are tied somewhat. On the one hand, (in most states) you can't kick your child out of your home if he/she is under 16 years of age. That's the case here in AL where a 16 yr old can drop out of high school without the parent's permission. However, a 16 yr old child can get married with their parent's permission. The question I've often asked myself is, "What sense does that make"? It's as if the law tries to cut it both ways for the child, i.e., you're old enough to make some decisions on your own but not others. Makes it tough on a parent to know where their legal responsibility begins and ends. But therein lay the problem. Sometimes, it's not the legality of the situation that's in question; it's the moral dilemma that you wrestle to resolve. So, for the parents the issue is where does my moral obligation to care for the irresponsible act of another begin and end? Put in a more blunt and forceful way: Why should I have to pay for my teenaged daughter's (or son's) mistake when clearly they've decided to ignore or otherwise undermine my position of authority? That's the million dollar question both my wife and I along with my ex-wife had to grappble with involving both our teenaged daughters.

My biological daughter was 17 when she informed her mother and I of her teen pregnancy. My ex-wife and I grappbled with the same moral dilemma the parents of this teenaged mother-to-be are now trying to resolve. It wasn't easy, but we both realized that the abortion decision was our daughter's despite the fact that she and her newborn child would very likely be living with my ex. (Note: The question of sending my daughter to live with me was never brought up probably because my daughter had previously lived with me and she knew that I already had a full house w/my son, two step-children and a young daughter of my own at the time. Still, my wife and I would have taken her in without question because she is my child.) This decision was borne out of our own experience. My ex and I aborted what would have been our third child when our two children were still very young. We did so with the understanding that we couldn't afford to have another child. For us, it was the right decision despite the fact that we still look back on the experience from time to time with some trepidation. My current wife also had her own abortion experience. Thus, the three parents involved were able to share lots of life experience with "our" daughter. Her decision: go forward with the birth. That was 9 yrs ago and for her it was the right decision to make. My daughter born one fine young man as her son, my grandson who is also my name sake. (She named him after me. :) ) Still, I remember the discussion her mother and I had on this issue most of which revolved around how our daughter would raise the child, finish high school and if my ex was strong enough to help raise another child. Optimum word here "help". You see, it was well established that my daughter would take responsibility to provide for and raise this child on her own as much as possible. If it cried in the middle of the night, she would see to its needs. Even if grandma woke she would give the child to its mother to feed, change a diaper, tend to a fever or teething matter. Babysitting was only conducted if our daughter was at school or at work. Rarely did my ex babysit for the sake of our daughter going out just to hang with friends. My daughter learned very quickly that she was now a mother and she took responsibility for her child. Today, she's 26, married with four children of her own and doing well.

So, what's the point of my post? Only this: Being pro-choice doesn't absolve one from her (or his) responsibilities where unexpected pregnancy is concerned. It only means that we acknowledge that the mother (in consult with the father) has choices...options as it were, and abortion is just one of them. Raise the child as your own or adoption being the other two. Did my ex-wife and I, as well as my current wife, know this when we went through our abortion experiences? Yes. But the option of adoption wasn't available to either of us and for atleast one of us. Worst yet for my wife, her situation very closely mirrored that of the teenaged mother-to-be in the OP. She wasn't given much of a choice to raise what would have been her first child while still living w/her grandparents.

For what it's worth, I understand the parent's hurt and anger. I've experienced the range of emotions on this very topic myself. In the end, it's really about the teen mother taking responsibility for her actions. For what right does the teenaged child or the legal system have to force the responsibility in whole or in part unto another? This is a segway into the second-half of my story: the 16 year old high school dropout. You see, sometimes despite a law's best intensios, the law remains somewhat flawed. How is it that the system can force me to maintain responsibility for the actions of teenager who lives under my roof but wants to act as if he/she is an adult? Those young teenages between the ages of 16-21 have been made to believe they can live life with limited accountability. To me, that's wrong. It's why in my house, my children - those who are 16 yrs old and older - all know that "if you commit the crime, legally or morally, you do the time". They know they must face the consequences of their actions and take responsibility for what they do or don't do as may be the case when they know they should act accordingly. Hence, the reason why my 16 yr old step-daughter was no longer allowed to live under my roof when she dropped out of high school and refused to get a job and pay her way. After living with her biological father for a time, she quickly learned that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. She's 22 now but she's been gainfully employed since turning 17 and recently moved into her own home.

I'm very proud of my children, particularly my daughters. They've gone through alot, much of it self-imposed misery, but they're both better for it mostly because they've learned from making their own decisions - right, wrong or indifferent. And that's something I'll never take away from them - their right to choose as God Himself imparted to us all - free will.
 
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When men get pregnant, they have just as much right to terminate their own abortions as any woman does.

Right. It's her body and she's responsible for it. That leaves men off the hook.
 
...... And that's something I'll never take away from them - their right to choose as God Himself imparted to us all - free will.

This statement just seems somewhat twisted to me. God did give us free will, and yes, we can do choose evil if we like.
You seem to be suggesting that God's gift of free will is some kind of endorsement of our current law that allows us to kill our unborn children. Do I have your right?
 
This statement just seems somewhat twisted to me. God did give us free will, and yes, we can do choose evil if we like.
You seem to be suggesting that God's gift of free will is some kind of endorsement of our current law that allows us to kill our unborn children. Do I have your right?

Indeed. Theological free will is the freedom to do evil things... it does not mean that no action is good nor evil.

Even in a paradigm of free will, I have the freedom to go burn down an orphanage with all the kids in it. No divine hand will reach down from the heavens and stop me. If there is divinity, however, I can probably expect to find out the consequences of my abuse of free will once I am probably executed for this unlawful action...

The problem, then, for the religious, is figuring out what actions that are "sinful" but should not be managed by earthly law.

Homicide, at least aggressive homicide, is generally one of those things that is both sinful (Thou shalt not) and also unlawful. And with good reason. The dead have been wronged. The perpetrator has demonstrated a lack of respect for the rights of others, and the perpetrator is entirely likely to kill again. So in this case, there should be earthly justice whether or not there is divine justice.

And there generally is.

At least, until the homicide victim is completely helpless and completely innocent, and then our legal system right now says it's okay. :roll:
 
I'm very proud of my children, particularly my daughters. They've gone through alot, much of it self-imposed misery, but they're both better for it mostly because they've learned from making their own decisions - right, wrong or indifferent. And that's something I'll never take away from them - their right to choose as God Himself imparted to us all - free will.

Powerful statement. Agreed and Understood.
 
This statement just seems somewhat twisted to me. God did give us free will, and yes, we can do choose evil if we like.
You seem to be suggesting that God's gift of free will is some kind of endorsement of our current law that allows us to kill our unborn children. Do I have your right?


. As much as I hate the pro choice crowd....It is not as simple as that
 
This statement just seems somewhat twisted to me. God did give us free will, and yes, we can do choose evil if we like.
You seem to be suggesting that God's gift of free will is some kind of endorsement of our current law that allows us to kill our unborn children. Do I have your right?

No, you don't. I'm saying that we have choices, and while those choices do have consequences they still remain ours to make.
 
No, you don't. I'm saying that we have choices, and while those choices do have consequences they still remain ours to make.

....And that's something I'll never take away from them - their right to choose as God Himself imparted to us all - free will.

We have free will from God, which allows us to either eat the apple or not. We have laws implemented by citizens and government which allow or deny actions.
You do not have the ability to allow or deny free will, this is from God. You do have the ability to allow or deny based on law, in that you have a voice and a vote. You could vote to limit or eliminate the abortion option.

So you have the ability to take away some things, but not the free will God imparted to us all. Your message above is a rational argument for your "pro-choice" stance. You end it with the statement that you would never take away "their right to choose" as imparted by God (free will). You say specifically, "their right to choose." You did not say you would never take away "their free will" as God imparted to us all.
You qualify "Their right to choose" with the free will God imparted to us all.
You do seem to be equating the free will God gave us, with the right to choose abortion.

We currently allow the killing of unborn children by law. We once allowed the owning of other persons by law. Neither one is right. (have you ever noticed we naturally justify these kinds of actions by making a case that the victim is somehow less than a human being?) Although we have the free will to do these things as an individual or as a nation state, we still do evil with our free will choices at times, and this is one of those times.
 
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