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SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

Re: SOTU Address:

Small businesses have also drawn the short end of that stick, people seem to think that all the minimum wage workers are employed at giant conglomerates that have more money than they know what to do with. That's just not true. Raising the min wage to $9 will do nothing but hurt the very people hiring low skilled workers.

I'll give you an example from my own situation. I run a metal stamping plant. My largest vendor is a plater, I make the parts they coat them. They employ low skilled (mostly temps) workers to hang my parts on a rack. Now they have a few long term people that are good at the job and they can make up to $10/hr. The majority are temps making min wage and for the most part aren't worth that. Now this company stands to see their labor costs go up dramatically, at which time I will undoubtedly see a price increase. Things being as they are I cannot eat those increased costs, I'm already cut to the bone. I will approach my customers with a price increase at which time they will laugh hysterically. The bottom line is I WILL lose work, not maybe, I WILL lose work, period. And so will the plater. So at the end of the day this will not only cost some of those min wage workers their job but will in all likelihood cost some one in my shop theirs. My lowest paid employee makes $14/hr.

What drives me crazier than anything else is that at the end of the day, those that support this increase will point to Mcds and say "see, everything worked out fine". Neither my employees nor the platers will ever even be acknowledged. I've been through this before and it doesn't end well.

Where was your concern over the last decade? When according to NBER productivity growth in the United States has rebounded sharply over the past decade. Hhmmm…what was the tax rate when it started its decade long climb? :2wave:

I am familiar with an operation such as yours .My son has a very successful Tool and Die shop. If you do any stampings to for BOEING Or GE, there’s a good chance you’re using one of his dies, or jig assemblies.

Where is your concern for people that work for minimum wage that have seen their buying power shrink… for example, minimum wage was $1.60 per hour in 1968, which translates to about $10.50 in today’s bucks. Are these people just a number on your bottom line? Have you bothered to check out any of these plating shops that hires from manpower? If you do/did you had better be conversant in Spanish.:peace
 
Re: SOTU Address:

For all the whizz-bang liberals who claim that raising the MW will grow the economy.

"MW for Dummies": In order to grow the economy, one must increase productivity, which then increases income, and more importantly, standard of living. Raising the MW does not do this. Paying someone more to produce the same quantity of goods or services must then be offset by an increase in the price of the goods or services, as ther was no increase in productivity. Which means that the customer must now pay more of their disposable income to buy those g and s. Which leaves the customer with two choices 1) Purchase less; or 2) find a way to raise the price of their labor, if possible, so that they can also pass it on to someone else.

In the end. you have not grown the economy. You will have a mix of inflation, job losses where an employer cannot meet the increased labor costs where there was no increase in productivity, and a reduction in standard of living, where folks now can only make do by purchasing less.

Where customer demand then shifts to products and services, now costing less, where foreign labor is the beneficiary, you have really shot yourself in the foot.

"Whoo-Hooo" eh liberals ? Been a while since I have seen such long-winded dumbassery as in this thread.


<Productivity growth in the United States has rebounded sharply over the past decade, after the disappointingly sluggish growth in the prior two decades.>:peace


Productivity Growth and Employment
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Where was your concern over the last decade? When according to NBER productivity growth in the United States has rebounded sharply over the past decade. Hhmmm…what was the tax rate when it started its decade long climb? :2wave:

I am familiar with an operation such as yours .My son has a very successful Tool and Die shop. If you do any stampings to for BOEING Or GE, there’s a good chance you’re using one of his dies, or jig assemblies.

Where is your concern for people that work for minimum wage that have seen their buying power shrink… for example, minimum wage was $1.60 per hour in 1968, which translates to about $10.50 in today’s bucks. Are these people just a number on your bottom line? Have you bothered to check out any of these plating shops that hires from manpower? If you do/did you had better be conversant in Spanish.:peace

Have yet to have any liberal here define the number of people on minimum wage, who they are, and how long they remain on minimum wage? Seems to me like you believe it is the government's responsibility to tell you what to pay your workers if you own your own business? What risk do they have in your business?
 
I always love it when liberals us "inflation adjusted" or "he wasn't immaculated until Jan 2009". Intellectual dishonesty at it's best.

The very fact the present occupier of the White House will be known for...."It's someone else's fault" reveals all you need to know about lack of character.

Any more opinions you would like to add?:roll:
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Have yet to have any liberal here define the number of people on minimum wage, who they are, and how long they remain on minimum wage?

Its here con. all you have to do is read the last five pages.:2wave:
 
Re: SOTU Address:

QUOTE Conservative

In your dreams, how many,

How so?



who are they, and how long do they remain on minimum wage?


I believe that most live in the Houston area.Who knows you mighta been making payroll outta your little cubical for them before your retirement in the last century.:2wave:
 
Re: SOTU Address:

How so?

How many Americans are making minimum wage, what are their ages, and how long do they make minimum wage. Further do you think it is the role of the govt. to tell you how much to pay your workers after you put the investment into your business and are the last one paid?




I believe that most live in the Houston area.Who knows you mighta been making payroll outta your little cubical for them before your retirement in the last century.:2wave:

Just goes to show how little you truly know. Never hired an illegal, nor did I ever pay the govt. mandated minimum wage as the market would never allow it, Further I competed against Wal-Mart and know that they don't pay their full time employees minimum wage, they do promote from within, and offer all full time employees healthcare options.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

<Productivity growth in the United States has rebounded sharply over the past decade, after the disappointingly sluggish growth in the prior two decades.>:peace


Productivity Growth and Employment

Which is fine. But so has productivity increased all over, primarily due to the influence of computers and more robotics.

Look, if there is going to be a MW increase, let it be for accurate reasons, such as indexed to inflation. Not for some absurdity that it will actually grow the economy.

Others have mentioned how states have done it, which is also far better than the Feds doing it. One size does not fit all with this, unless one is just trying to make more folks dependent on government, under the guise of curing some cockamamie social injustice.
 
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Re: SOTU Address:

For a start it(raising the minimum wage) would inject almost $10 billion of extra spending power into our economy.Oh...bytheway.Half of all minimum wage earners are over the age of 25.Just sayen.:peace

In my comment, I did acknowledge the fact that older people fill positions of minimum wage, because it makes no sense for an employer to pay someone that much with absolutely no skill. Also, the $10B of extra spending power is a crock of crap. Who do you think will pay for the minimum wage, the employer or the consumer? You want our dollars to have less buying power, raise minimum wage.

Also, forcing a company (say McDonalds) to pay the low-skilled cashier or lobby detail takes money out of the pockets of the people running the fryers, assembling orders, and cooking the food.
 
Hagel looked like an incompetent, unprepared moron.

Spare us the political smear campaign disguised as philosophical crap, posing as an intellectual doesnt make you one.

That doesn't change the fact that McCain and the others are simply using him as a whipping boy for his turning against Bush. Dis-loyalty to the group has its consequences doesn't it? As for the political smear campaign, try telling the Republicans on the committee to heed your advice. And If you want to deal with what I post, then critique it with your brain, not your bias. In other words, tell me where I'm wrong. That would serve you better.
 
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...kes-around-100-injured-12.html#post1061474390

It's embarrassing how badly Fenton argues.

Now, I'm feeling bad for destroying him. It's not even a challenge anymore.

He also allegedly has an IQ of 140...but posted his response in the wrong thread twice.


Believe it or not...I got cited for my reponse to all that nonsense. Apparently I was flaming. "This entire post is nothing but baiting. In the future, address the argument rather than the other poster". I've been warned. It came from a conservative moderator. I don't know...maybe she thought I'd posted all that garbage. Go figure. :roll:
 
Dude, you can't quote stuff from other threads and just bulldoze this one. That's 3 quotes from a different thread.

That's 7 quotes from a different thread, all from the same member. Are you ok?

Why am I getting cited for a post by that guy? I dont' get it?
 
Why am I getting cited for a post by that guy? I dont' get it?

I think sometimes the sheer quantity of jackassery creates a sort of vortex, causing anomalies to occur. I have no idea what you're talkin' about.
 
That doesn't change the fact that McCain and the others are simply using him as a whipping boy for his turning against Bush. Dis-loyalty to the group has its consequences doesn't it? As for the political smear campaign, try telling the Republicans on the committee to heed your advice. And If you want to deal with what I post, then critique it with your brain, not your bias. In other words, tell me where I'm wrong. That would serve you better.

Hagel did not look like he was ready the job at hand, which is tough and demanding. His Q&A was terrible on a variety of levels. Thats NOT bias. People from both sides have said that exact thing. Politicians dont exact revenge for someone that "turns" against a retired politician. There is nothing in it for them to do so---especially McCain who has already criticized Bush far and wide. Your premise is very flawed.

Bolded is random jackassery and borderline flaming, just state your case without the peanut gallery.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

For all the whizz-bang liberals who claim that raising the MW will grow the economy.

"MW for Dummies": In order to grow the economy, one must increase productivity, which then increases income, and more importantly, standard of living. Raising the MW does not do this. Paying someone more to produce the same quantity of goods or services must then be offset by an increase in the price of the goods or services, as ther was no increase in productivity. Which means that the customer must now pay more of their disposable income to buy those g and s. Which leaves the customer with two choices 1) Purchase less; or 2) find a way to raise the price of their labor, if possible, so that they can also pass it on to someone else.

In the end. you have not grown the economy. You will have a mix of inflation, job losses where an employer cannot meet the increased labor costs where there was no increase in productivity, and a reduction in standard of living, where folks now can only make do by purchasing less.

Where customer demand then shifts to products and services, now costing less, where foreign labor is the beneficiary, you have really shot yourself in the foot.

"Whoo-Hooo" eh liberals ? Been a while since I have seen such long-winded dumbassery as in this thread.


Productivity is at it's highest rate in years. American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labor productivity."

Each U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, ahead of Luxembourg, $55,641; Belgium, $55,235; and France, $54,609. U.S. Workers World's Most Productive - CBS News

In short, productivity has increased far beyond wages. Profits are up, and corporations are making more money than ever. Wages however are stagnant.

which then increases income, and more importantly, standard of living.

Clearly if that were true, the standard of living for everyone would be up. It isn't. Why not?

Paying someone more to produce the same quantity of goods or services must then be offset by an increase in the price of the goods or services, as ther was no increase in productivity

That's simply not true. They're producing more and getting paid less. The U.S. employee put in an average 1,804 hours of work in 2006, the report said. That compared with 1,407.1 hours for the Norwegian worker, and 1,564.4 for the French. The fact is that corporate profits have soared. The Dow is around 14,000. The reason for extremely high profits is cheap labor. In other words, it's simply greed.

There are so many holes in your theory, it's hard to know where to begin. We should start with the understanding that it's theory. Not science. It's not demonstrably true. We can also say that you're simply making an argument for keeping wages low. Why you want to keep people from raising their standard of living is beyond me, but that's what the entire argument is centered on. High profitablity for the company at the expense of the worker. What it really boils down to is the amount of profit a company accepts as opposed to how much can they wring out of their employees. If they accepted slightely less to cover a higher wage for the employee what do they gain? For one thing they probably gain a more loyal workforce and reduced turnover. The longer they keep employees the higher their skills become, which makes them even more productive. An experienced worker is going to be more productive than a newbie. They're capable of producing more in less time. Another benifit is that with higher wages the employee has more money at his disposal which also translates into greater purchasing power. He'll buy a new appliance, or a car, or a home. He'll inject more money into the local ecomomy. With this additional purchasing power, other business benefit by selling more goods because of the higher demand for what they sell. That demand puts a strain on other businesses to meet the demand which they can do through hiring more people to keep up with that demand. The consumer always drives job creation. When there is a demand for goods and services, a company will hire people. No company hires a person without that demand. If they did, they'd be laying people off right away or go broke. It takes customers coming through the doors to sell the product. More money in peoples pocket, more spending of that money and more people hired to meet that demand. In the end, the effect of lowering the profit margin is offset through higher volume of goods sold. The company may make less per unit, but they offset that by selling more units of what they offer. It has to do with profit margin.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

The Dow is not directly the result of just American labor. Look at how Walmart stock dropped on the leaked memo about sales being down. Did the workers work in less hard to cause that? If the answer is no, then how can you maintain that the workers alone caused what the price was before the drop?

While the minimum wage should be raised, the argument does not reside in "productivity".
 
That argument only "works" if you discount the fact that Obama added $787 billion ARRA spending, authorized in February 2009. Obama also directed most of the actual TARP spending. Considering that to be "Bush spending" is insane and very dishonest. Federal spending went up 20% from 2007/8 to 2008/9 and Obama, via his puppet Harry Reid, has kept it at that elevated level by using continuing resolutions, while he and the MSM insist how frugal he is. Get real!

That argument only "works" if you discount the fact that Obama added $787 billion ARRA spending, authorized in February 2009..

That's absolutely false.

Obama also directed most of the actual TARP spending.

??? So what? Did you expect Bush to do it?

Considering that to be "Bush spending" is insane and very dishonest.

No. I'm afraid it isn't. Every president is going to inherit the spending of the guy that preceded him. Whoever succeeds Obama will inherit what he left. It's neither insane nor dishonest as Politifact points out. I know conservatives don't like Fact checkers...they have an aversion to facts, as we heard in the last election.

Federal spending went up 20% from 2007/8 to 2008/9 and Obama, via his puppet Harry Reid, has kept it at that elevated level by using continuing resolutions, while he and the MSM insist how frugal he is. Get real!

That's a good idea. Lets keep it real. Who was president from 07/8? That spending carried over into 08/9 from the Bush years. It was still the Bush economy. We were still under the Bush Tax cuts. We were still involved in Bush's wars. That spending rate has not increased under Obama as you've just pointed out. The rate of spending has actually slowed.
 
Youre new here, so you may not know this.

If you use a source, you need to cite it.

I did. Obama To Put Cost of War on the Books, for the First Time in Eight Years
Posted by ralphon February 27, 2009

Christi Parsons and Maura Reynolds, LA Times:

Did you miss that?
 
Believe it or not...I got cited for my reponse to all that nonsense. Apparently I was flaming. "This entire post is nothing but baiting. In the future, address the argument rather than the other poster". I've been warned. It came from a conservative moderator. I don't know...maybe she thought I'd posted all that garbage. Go figure. :roll:

Considering how many times Fenton directly attacked me, that moderator is full of crap if they didn't ding him. Still, it's obvious just how outclassed fenton is. It's still hilarious how a guy who claims to have an IQ of 140 can't figure out he posted his responses twice in the wrong thread.
 
The lack of knowledge about how our govt. works, the fiscal year of the United States, basic civics, understanding of the deficit and debt by liberals is staggering as it seems they prefer buying rhetoric from the left vs. actual research. What is quite telling is how Bush is the scapegoat for everything even though he has been out of office for 4 years. It does seem that liberals are never responsible for anything and always blame someone else for their own failures.

The fiscal year of the United States runs from October to September, not the calendar year. The 2009 budget was not signed by GW Bush as it was rejected by the Democrat Controlled Congress so the govt. operated on continuing resolutions until Obama signed it in March 2009. As has been pointed out here, Obama spent TARP money, Obama presented and spent the ARRA money, Obama took over GM/Chrysler, Obama spent money on the Afghanistan surge, and of course Obama never applied the repayment of TARP to the budget deficit but recycled it instead.

Liberals always talk about the cost of the wars being off budget but they ignore that the cost of the wars are included in the debt charged to Bush. Liberals always ignore that the debt under Obama exceeds the entire Bush debt and he generated that debt in 4 years.

Don't know what it is about liberalism that generates this kind of loyalty but that loyalty is destroying the country.

Liberals always talk about the cost of the wars being off budget but they ignore that the cost of the wars are included in the debt charged to Bush.

Oh this is good. The wars were off the books and you had no idea of what the debt was until Obama put it back on the books, and then you screamed like wounded badgers over that debt and accused Obama of massive debt. Now you want to tell us that the debt was charged to the Bush admin??? Yeah, now it is. But only because it's been pointed out to you. Very disingenuous of you. You weren't even aware of it, or you'd have screamed your head off during the last decade. All we heard were crickets. Now you have a problem with it? What would you say if Obama took the wars off the books? That's a good way of reducing the deficit isn't it??:roll:
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Have yet to have any liberal here define the number of people on minimum wage, who they are, and how long they remain on minimum wage? Seems to me like you believe it is the government's responsibility to tell you what to pay your workers if you own your own business? What risk do they have in your business?

Then your assessment is wrong. The government doesn't tell you what to pay your workers. They tell you the minimum amount. You're quite free to pay them more if you like, and most responsible companies do just that. Sounds like if it were up to you you'd pay them about $2.60/hr. What's the least amount you'd pay somebody? If you can't afford to hire somebody, then do it all yourself. How's that sound?:eek:
 
I think sometimes the sheer quantity of jackassery creates a sort of vortex, causing anomalies to occur. I have no idea what you're talkin' about.

The poster you were referring to. I got cited for responding to some garbage he said on a huge post. Apparently the moderator thought I was flaming and attacking the poster, which if you read the post, I think you'd find strange.
 
Hagel did not look like he was ready the job at hand, which is tough and demanding. His Q&A was terrible on a variety of levels. Thats NOT bias. People from both sides have said that exact thing. Politicians dont exact revenge for someone that "turns" against a retired politician. There is nothing in it for them to do so---especially McCain who has already criticized Bush far and wide. Your premise is very flawed.

Bolded is random jackassery and borderline flaming, just state your case without the peanut gallery.

Politicians dont exact revenge for someone that "turns" against a retired politician. There is nothing in it for them to do so---especially McCain who has already criticized Bush far and wide. Your premise is very flawed.

:shock: Well that's going to come as news to a lot of people. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) is opposing Hagel as political payback
MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough, himself a former Republican congressman, was particularly upset with the Senate Republicans’ hold up of Hagel, expressing disbelief at Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) admission on Thursday that he’s opposing Hagel because Hagel broke with the GOP on the Iraq war: “They don’t have a Secretary of Defense running the Pentagon because of a 6 or 7 year old grudge? Really?”:



McCAIN: But to be honest with you, Neil, it goes back to there’s a lot of ill will towards Senator Hagel because when he was a Republican, he attacked President Bush mercilessly and say he was the worst President since Herbert Hoover and said the surge was the worst blunder since the Vietnam War, which was nonsense. He was anti-his own party and people — people don’t forget that. You can disagree but if you’re disagreeable, then people don’t forget that.

“The impressive thing about the anti-Hagel effort is how politically tone-deaf it is,” writes the American Conservative’s Daniel Larison. It’s not just that their opposition is misguided, but they stand to gain nothing from it. No one outside of a small core of hard-liners sympathizes with what Senate Republicans are doing.”

Politicians dont exact revenge for someone that "turns" against a retired politician. There is nothing in it for them to do so---especially McCain who has already criticized Bush far and wide. Your premise is very flawed.

Care to rethink that? :surrender
 
I did. Obama To Put Cost of War on the Books, for the First Time in Eight Years
Posted by ralphon February 27, 2009

Christi Parsons and Maura Reynolds, LA Times:

Did you miss that?

So are you telling me that the cost of the wars aren't included in the debt charged to Bush and would you like to make a wager on it?
 
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