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SOTU Address:[W: 378; 1310; 1451]

Re: SOTU Address:

Again, you stated that Democrats jacked up corporate taxes to the highest rate in the world,

AGAIN, where did I state the above?

Do you understand?

The question is 'do you understand'? You have falsely accused me AGAIN!...
 
Re: SOTU Address:

AGAIN, where did I state the above?



The question is 'do you understand'? You have falsely accused me AGAIN!...

Ah, I see what happened. I argued the point that the poster "American" made, which in included this quote, "That's because Democrats jack up corporate taxes to the highest level worldwide. But don't let any facts get in the way of your favorite meme."

We were debating and you seemed to have picked up where he left off, so I assigned his statement to you.

I apologize for my error.

So you do not blame Democrats for jacking up corporate taxes to the highest in the world, but you still seem to have an opinion that the GOP did something about this, and yet, American still has the highest corporate taxes in the world.

Take my argument, ignore my quote attribution error, and tell me where you think I am wrong.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Why are you opposed to paying those at the bottom of the pay scale a wage that they might be able to survive on?

Did you ever hear of Henry Ford? Ninety nine years ago in January, 1914 Ford raised the pay of his workers to $5.00 a day.

He reasoned that since, because of his innovations, it was now possible to build inexpensive cars in volume, more of them could be sold if employees could afford to buy them. The $5 day helped better the lot of all American workers and contributed to the emergence of the American middle class. In the process. Ford had changed manufacturing forever.

More here:Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately most of you people on the right just don't understand how the economy works.

Have a nice day.



"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.

I love it when a liberal shoots themselves in the foot with their own "example". :lamo

Henry Ford was a great, great man. He failed twice at establishing a successful auto manufacturing company before he was successful. He did not get a government bailout, he persevered. He kept trying and finally succeeded. As the owner of his company, he decided to raise his worker's wages on his own. That's right, no pressure from government, no government mandate, just his decision. He made the decision to raise the pay for those who worked for him and take a hit on his own profits. It wasn't done via the barrel of a gun from Washington, it was done because he wanted his workers to be able to buy the same vehicles that they were building, which is good business sense.

When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works? :lamo
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Nice job of completely ignoring the point I made about tax reform.

And you ignored that Obama has made that statement before and until something concrete is proposed I ignored nothing but you ignored the lies.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I apologize for my error.

Thank you for this!...

So you do not blame Democrats for jacking up corporate taxes to the highest in the world, but you still seem to have an opinion that the GOP did something about this, and yet, American still has the highest corporate taxes in the world.


No, I don't blame anyone as EVERYONE is at fault and the mere application of blame is pointless. Yes the GOP did do SOMETHING, frankly compounding the already complicated tax code even further (as I inferred previously).
 
Re: SOTU Address:

When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works? :lamo

Darn it, if paying people interferes with profitability, we have to address that problem. Maybe corporations could take big boats over to Africa and grab a bunch of Africans and bring them back in the boats, call them "property" so they don't have to pay them. That would solve that pesky "paying people" problem.

Seriously though, there needs to be a balance between labor and capital, what we might call positive tension. Capital needs to be profitable (overall) and labor, in an economy that is made up 70% consumer spending, needs to pay labor enough to grow consumption. Anything less cannibalizes the economy. Business alone would have no problem cannibalizing the economy, the sustainability of the economy is not in the purview of corporate management, their responsibility is enhancing shareholder value. Labor on the other hand does not care about shareholder value, only labor compensation. Either side of the equation, when out of balance, can harm the economy, and ultimately harm both shareholder value and employee compensation.

Here's the current situation, supply siders and regulatory capturers haave been winning on policy for decades, throwing the equation out of balance in favor of capital. Capital is doing fantastic at the moment, but it is unsustainable as labor has see compensation stagnate for decades, so in order to continue to enhance shareholder value, capital has had to find other ways of increasing profitability besides generating greater and greater revenues from American consumers. This has included outsourcing labor to cheap foreign markets, replacing labor with technology, reducing customer service costs, and simple downward wage pressure on workers.

So while capital is showing record profits, the reality is that these profits are just manifestations of our economy eating itself and this path ends when there is nothing left to cannibalize, capital will move on to different markets, and America will become a 2nd world country.

The miniumun wage debate is really just labor (not unions specifically, but wage earners in general) attempting to bring pressure to bear on capital to bring balance to the equation.

Henry Ford did not raise wages because he wanted his workers to be able to buy his cars, that was something that someone else said after the fact, and Ford just liked the sound of it. Ford raised wages to higher than any of his competitors were paying because he wanted better (and more loyal) workers than his competitors had. There was competition in the labor market as happens in a good consumption based economy. Our problem now is that we are still consumption based, but with consumers having less and less purchasing power. We need policy that puts more money in the hands of American consumers and there are a number of actions that can be taken to this end, not the least of which is considering how much virtual slave labor we should allow to manufacture imports without penalty. The minimun wage is another step.

The minimum wage increase alone will do very little, it will just create a greater ROI for moving jobs to foreign workers when and where possible. We need to take away the ROI of moving jobs to the extent possible to allow for wage competition in THIS country, or we can kiss the greatest middle class the world has ever seen goodbye.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

So, when I show that you lied about Henry Ford and his views on business, which I backed up with a quote, your response is to then make up more lies from you own mind, then pull these lies out of your ass and post them as facts. Then to make matters worse, you attack the product that Ford makes because you don't like his belief that labor should be paid a decent wage.

It wasn't that long ago that right-wingers was praising Ford for not taking government money. I guess you don't remember this.

I can tell you arent interested in a civil debate.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I'll be upfront with you. I don't like Obama and I disagree with many of his purported policies. But I did agree with 2 things he said last night.

1) Minimum wage. First, not that many people are getting less than $9 an hour anyway. The least anybody is making is $7.25 and many states are higher than that anyway. So, realistically, there are a few million workers making less than $9, so they'll get a $1 raise. Any business that can't afford another $8 a day isn't much of a business. I've been self-employed for about 45 years and I never once paid minimum wage. I'd frankly be embarrased to and I ask for loyalty and dedication so I'm not going to not be at leastt 20% above minimum.

So, I feel this is not harmful at all and nobody can survive on less than $9. The only ones who get this "raiuse" are people that actually have a job. Not parasites - workers.

2) Manufacturing development labs - This is one of my ideas and I feel Obama should pay ME for suggesting this years ago. Developing new products and licensing them to IS manufacturers and making them in the US is a wise, and not excessive, investment. Look how many things NASA invented as a by-product of the space program! The USG will probably turn a profit on the patents and stuff will get invented that private industry hasn't gotten to yet. This makes America stronger. It will also train new engineers who can then go with their inventions to whomever buys the license. In the end, it costs probably zero and we need to get back ahead of China, Korea and Japan etc. in new technology.

Just because Obama is wrong about many things doesn't mean he's wrong about everything. I wish he had more good ideas. But I will support what is good, I want America to succeed. He;s already elected - lets get the best possible from him. Don't you think that's wisest?

Well lets say businesses are required to give a million people another 2 dollars an hour. Thats 2 million per hour total, 80 million more per week (since obama says theyre all working full time), 320million more per month, 3 billion more a year in labor costs, that would then be passed down to consumers. It adds up.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I love it when a liberal shoots themselves in the foot with their own "example". :lamo

Henry Ford was a great, great man. He failed twice at establishing a successful auto manufacturing company before he was successful. He did not get a government bailout, he persevered. He kept trying and finally succeeded. As the owner of his company, he decided to raise his worker's wages on his own. That's right, no pressure from government, no government mandate, just his decision. He made the decision to raise the pay for those who worked for him and take a hit on his own profits. It wasn't done via the barrel of a gun from Washington, it was done because he wanted his workers to be able to buy the same vehicles that they were building, which is good business sense.

When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works? :lamo


I don't think we understand the phrase "liberal shoots themselves in the foot" in the same way. shrubnose pointed out that Henry Ford, a racist anti-Semite by the way, raised the wages offered to his workers to a level substantially above that of other Detroit manufacturers. As noted, there were two justifications for this move 1) higher wages kept experienced workers on the assembly lines and 2) higher wages created more potential customers for the products manufactured. Did Ford take a hit on his own profits"? NO, instead he saw increased sales as a result of his move and an actual reduction in per unit costs as more experienced workers are more efficient producers.

Raising the minimum wage under federal mandate has nothing to do with such a move as undertaken by Henry Ford, his workers were already receiving the industrial standard wage at the time of his increase.

The 'right', those who believe in the oft-refuted Austrian ideas about economics, always ignore what happens with the increased income for those at the very bottom of the pay scale - the poor spend it, they don't put much if any into a savings account because they must spend every penny to survive. Those folks who have greater income do put some money aside, unfortunately in today's world of uncertainty engendered by the rhetoric of far too many politicians, those savings accounts are not being used by the banks in the way the Austrians claim. Corporations, including banks, are simply sitting on piles of cash, more money than they have held at any time in the past. Of course they are paying their executives absurd sums even when the corporation isn't doing all that well. 26 CEOs Who Made More Than Their Companies Paid In Federal Tax also this one just out: Banks holding over $200 million in Sandy payments - CNN.com
Delays can follow when banks request proof of repairs or servicing required by federal mortgage agencies. But many residents have complained that they haven't received the funds they need to start the repairs.

The Austrians deny the value of government spending, except for 'defence' purposes - always wondered about that, why does spending taxpayer money on military goods create jobs but spending taxpayer money on other projects is simply taking it away from the taxpayers with no jobs created. We hear it everyday, "Government can't create jobs!" but they never have any actual support for that claim, with their various prevarications and attempts at diversion to keep the public from thinking about the matter.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I'll be upfront with you. I don't like Obama and I disagree with many of his purported policies. But I did agree with 2 things he said last night.

1) Minimum wage. First, not that many people are getting less than $9 an hour anyway. The least anybody is making is $7.25 and many states are higher than that anyway. So, realistically, there are a few million workers making less than $9, so they'll get a $1 raise. Any business that can't afford another $8 a day isn't much of a business. I've been self-employed for about 45 years and I never once paid minimum wage. I'd frankly be embarrased to and I ask for loyalty and dedication so I'm not going to not be at leastt 20% above minimum.

So, I feel this is not harmful at all and nobody can survive on less than $9. The only ones who get this "raiuse" are people that actually have a job. Not parasites - workers.

2) Manufacturing development labs - This is one of my ideas and I feel Obama should pay ME for suggesting this years ago. Developing new products and licensing them to IS manufacturers and making them in the US is a wise, and not excessive, investment. Look how many things NASA invented as a by-product of the space program! The USG will probably turn a profit on the patents and stuff will get invented that private industry hasn't gotten to yet. This makes America stronger. It will also train new engineers who can then go with their inventions to whomever buys the license. In the end, it costs probably zero and we need to get back ahead of China, Korea and Japan etc. in new technology.

Just because Obama is wrong about many things doesn't mean he's wrong about everything. I wish he had more good ideas. But I will support what is good, I want America to succeed. He;s already elected - lets get the best possible from him. Don't you think that's wisest?

Actually economics says that these people will loose their job if their labor is not worth the increase.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I love it when a liberal shoots themselves in the foot with their own "example". :lamo

Henry Ford was a great, great man. He failed twice at establishing a successful auto manufacturing company before he was successful. He did not get a government bailout, he persevered. He kept trying and finally succeeded. As the owner of his company, he decided to raise his worker's wages on his own. That's right, no pressure from government, no government mandate, just his decision. He made the decision to raise the pay for those who worked for him and take a hit on his own profits. It wasn't done via the barrel of a gun from Washington, it was done because he wanted his workers to be able to buy the same vehicles that they were building, which is good business sense.

When Washington mandates that businesses raise minimum wage, it drives the cost of labor up making it more difficult for businesses to make a profit. And with the economy teetering on the brink of collapse, it's "most of the people on the right" who don't understand how the economy works? :lamo

He didnt take a hit on his profit. He saved money by not having to constantly hire new people. And if you beleive that all his workers could then afford to buy the cars they made, the it was a perpertual motion engine. He paid them to buy his cars.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

And you ignored that Obama has made that statement before and until something concrete is proposed I ignored nothing but you ignored the lies.

So you support tax reform?
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.


Actually economics says that these people will loose their job if their labor is not worth the increase.

Well lets say businesses are required to give a million people another 2 dollars an hour. Thats 2 million per hour total, 80 million more per week (since obama says theyre all working full time), 320million more per month, 3 billion more a year in labor costs, that would then be passed down to consumers. It adds up.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

I don't think we understand the phrase "liberal shoots themselves in the foot" in the same way. shrubnose pointed out that Henry Ford, a racist anti-Semite by the way

You lost me when you started out with a lie (in bold). :roll:
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.

Workers are parasites if the owner is forced to pay them more than the value they bring to the company. These jobs are nor ment to support families we should stop trying to make them be able too.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

So you support tax reform?

Absolutely, too bad Obama's idea of tax reform only hits the upper income earns which is nothing more than a drop in the bucket to solve our spending problem promoted by liberalism. How much in Federal Income Taxes do the 22 plus million unemployed/under employed/discouraged workers pay?
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.

Nonsense. Do you assert that welfare is less now than $320/month? It will shift the "welfare" costs from gov't to private employer, but do no more than that. Increasing wages with no increase in productivity is insane. Why not make that "living minimum wage" $25/hour then?

Examining the Means-tested Welfare State
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Thank you for this!...




No, I don't blame anyone as EVERYONE is at fault and the mere application of blame is pointless. Yes the GOP did do SOMETHING, frankly compounding the already complicated tax code even further (as I inferred previously).

I need to do a better job of knowing who I am debating with. :)

Seems we are on the same page.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Morning Bell: Heritage Experts Analyze the State of the Union

by Amy Payne @ The Foundry

President Barack Obama laid out an ambitious agenda last night. Here are some highlights of our experts’ analysis of his claims, his plans, and his promises.

For those of you who adore King Barry Hussein, don't bother to click on Heritage Experts React to the State of the Union 2013: Analysis

or State of the Union 2013 Expert Analysis

IMHO, just more hot air by The Campaigner-in-Chief with a lot more Big Government. And no, I did not bother to watch it as there were more interesting things to see such as a re-run of NCIS-LA and Castle.

And, oh yes, Scott Johnson at Power Line SOTU, Jeopardy style | Power Line asks some interesting questions about the speech to include:

When Obama describes the “sequester” budget cuts as a looming disaster, does he expect us to forget that he is their author? Is he counting on his friends in the media to keep a secret? (Okay, foolish question.) How is it possible to take anything he says in good faith?

How many noticed the absence of Supreme Court Justices Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia at the speech? Free Republic didn't and wrote this piece about it - Three conservative justices absent themselves from SOTU

And yet this - Healthcare Paid for With Unicorn Farts

By: Erick Erickson (Diary) | February 13th, 2013

There will be many words from many people about much of the President’s State of the Union speech from last night.

I will only focus on one line, which distinctly highlights again just how out to lunch the man is when it comes to real healthcare reforms in this country.

Read more @ Healthcare Paid for With Unicorn Farts | RedState
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Nonsense. Do you assert that welfare is less now than $320/month? It will shift the "welfare" costs from gov't to private employer, but do no more than that. Increasing wages with no increase in productivity is insane. Why not make that "living minimum wage" $25/hour then?

Examining the Means-tested Welfare State


Australia's minimum wage is $15.96 (Australian), which translates to $16.50 (U.S.) and the country has a jobless rate of just 5.4 per cent. AND their Prime Minister is an atheist!
 
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Re: SOTU Address:

Australia's minimum wage is $15.96 (Australian), which translates to $16.50 (U.S.) and the country has a jobless rate of just 5.4 per cent. AND their Prime Minister is an atheist!

Sounds like your kind of place to live!

Australia

22.6 million people, less than the state of TX

11.5 million labor force again less than the state of TX
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Using this line of reasoning, I should hope that nobody ever gets a wage increase. Never. Why, prices might go up! My best friend just got a raise to $18.03 an hour and I don't think her company's prices went up.

Even using your figures, not allowing for the fact that the current amount is $7.25 and thus we're talking about $1.75, not $2.00 and allowing for the fact that there are a number of states that already have a higher minimum wage, I just want to remind you that these are WORKERS not PARASITES and the amounts you are concerned with are negiligible in context.

I seriously doubt that anybody will lose their job over $1.75 an hour. Even $9 an hour is hardly high wages but it's enough to get them off the welfare rolls.

I didnt even add the overcosts of doing the red tape to change peoples wages, pay additional benefits based on their rate of pay, deal with the tax code, etc. The cost is even higher. That assuming they dont simply fire someone (or not hire, expand, whatever) to absorb the cost.

These are the consequences of central control of the economy. It would be better to eliminate wage controls.
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Absolutely, too bad Obama's idea of tax reform only hits the upper income earns which is nothing more than a drop in the bucket to solve our spending problem promoted by liberalism. How much in Federal Income Taxes do the 22 plus million unemployed/under employed/discouraged workers pay?

Exactly. If he supported tax reform he would have done something with the TAX REFORM COMMISSION HE SET UP!
 
Re: SOTU Address:

Exactly. If he supported tax reform he would have done something with the TAX REFORM COMMISSION HE SET UP!

Obama gives lip service and appeals to the poorly informed who buy rhetoric over results. The poorly informed continue to support Obama and are the ones that benefit from the dependent society.
 
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