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University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Fisher said:
This is just taking the non-discrimination policy to the absurd. Whatever happened to the right to associate in academia? Fraternities should not have to have girls; nor sororities boys; nor any group those whom they do not want to admit.
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I thought the same thing Fisher, and admittedly I still think that a better policy could be in place to deal with situations like this. However, I can't call it a case of the school taking the policy to the absurd. As was posted later in the thread, the school actually went to the club before revoking membership and explained that all they'd have to do is remove the wording and they'd be perfectly fine. Note, they didn't tell them they had to elect leadership that was non-christian, to elect a new board, or to change how they were doing things in a practical matter. ALL they had to do was change what was written down.

Overall, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable and rational way for the school to be handle attempting to enforce a policy that nearly a hundred or so clubs were adhering to while at the same time being understanding of the groups desire to be sure their leadership represents the groups beliefs.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
How does the 14th amendment require Universities to officially recognize and providesanctioned benefits to any and all clubs sans any regulation. I'm really anxious to hear this explanation.
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I hate the Fourteenth Amendment however I will certainly use it when I can, and enjoy using it when people take a progressive approach to an issue.

The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education. In Reed v. Reed (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that laws arbitrarily requiring sex discrimination violated the Equal Protection Clause.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I'm still perplexed at the notion some posters here seem to think a non-christian should have a leadership role in a christian club.
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Find me one person in this thread that suggests that they SHOULD.

People are suggesting that they shouldn't be DISALLOWED by the laws of the club, IF it is recognized on campus and part of that recognition is an evenly enforced anti-discrimination rule.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between saying something SHOULD happen and saying something shouldn't be DISALLOWED?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Are you serious??? hahaha

You may as well say one doesn't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club.
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I would say joining a chess club is a perfect way for a novice to learn about chess. Or, say, someone curious about Christianity joining a Christian club.

Besides, since when is membership to a club a right?
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It's not, but you seem to think official recognition from a university is a right.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I hate the Fourteenth Amendment however I will certainly use it when I can, and enjoy using it when people take a progressive approach to an issue.

The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education. In Reed v. Reed (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that laws arbitrarily requiring sex discrimination violated the Equal Protection Clause.
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Okay, I asked you to explain how you feel it applies. All you did was quote me a wikipedia page of part of the amendment.

How does that apply to a university being required to recognize and sanction, sans any equally applied regulations, all clubs?

Every group has equal protectoin under the law in this case. Every group has the right to apply to become an officially sponsored club under an equally applied set of rules that doesn't discriminate based on protected classes such as gender, race, or religion.

The club is not being denied due process and equal protection under the law. They are subjected to the exact same rules as every other club, and those rules do not discriminate against the clubs religion (if it did, the other 16+ christian clubs wouldn't be able to be a club). They are not being denied the ability to be a club because of their religion, they're being denied the ability to be a club because they refuse to adhere to school policy that was agreed upon to gain sanctioned club status. A rule that in no way shape or form violates the 14th amendment.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
I thought the same thing Fisher, and admittedly I still think that a better policy could be in place to deal with situations like this. However, I can't call it a case of the school taking the policy to the absurd. As was posted later in the thread, the school actually went to the club before revoking membership and explained that all they'd have to do is remove the wording and they'd be perfectly fine. Note, they didn't tell them they had to elect leadership that was non-christian, to elect a new board, or to change how they were doing things in a practical matter. ALL they had to do was change what was written down.

Overall, I'd say that's a pretty reasonable and rational way for the school to be handle attempting to enforce a policy that nearly a hundred or so clubs were adhering to while at the same time being understanding of the groups desire to be sure their leadership represents the groups beliefs.
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I still think it is heavy-handed to end a club just because they would not make a cosmetic change to a written document--to me that is even more absurd. It would be like saying "Hey, it's ok if you discriminate just so we can tell people looking at our school that we don't". It is PC taken to an Orwellian level to me.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Do you know the definition of logic?
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Irony.

Also, I'm amazed a conservative is even arguing this with me.
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Not just one, either. But don't read too much into my lean. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

I'm still perplexed at the notion some posters here seem to think a non-christian should have a leadership role in a christian club.
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That is an obvious strawman, which is part of the reason why your previous question of "Do you know the definition of logic" is so incredibly ironic. Hilariously so.


What's next?
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Pretending to be a victim because of a conscious decision to flaunt the rules in an utterly meaningless way for no other purpose than to feign victimhood and **** upon the very conservative concept of taking personal responsibility for one's choices in response ot the other stupid ****. That's the "next" thing which shows how incredibly ****ing stupid society has become. It's going on right now, though.

Hopefully the next step will be society smartening the **** up and rectifying both types of astounding stupidity, but the cynical part of me doesn't see that happening.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Fisher said:
I still think it is heavy-handed to end a club just because they would not make a cosmetic change to a written document--to me that is even more absurd. It would be like saying "Hey, it's ok if you discriminate just so we can tell people looking at our school that we don't". It is PC taken to an Orwellian level to me.
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I wouldn't even say what happens is "discrimination" as much as it is common sense and human nature. A person whose group of friends is white is likely to have his best friends also be white and spend most of his time around white people. He's not actively discriminating against blacks, but common sense suggests the situtaion will lead it to that way. It's realistic and common sense to expect that a Christian club is probably not going to have non-christian leadership, just as its common sense and realistic that you're not going to expect to see a white president of a traditionally black fraternity.

I'm with Tucker in the notion that the zero-tolerance type policies like this without a bit of leeway for common sense are rather dumb. But I'm also with him in the notion that people acting like the club is being victimized in this case are being ridiculous. I can't even blame the school to much for having the policy, as I believe it's pretty standard and there largely due to the way our legal system in this country has become and the likely liability of NOT having such a rule would bring down onto the university. That's perhaps a sad state for our society, but I view the University of making the best of a bad situation.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
Find me one person in this thread that suggests that they SHOULD.

People are suggesting that they shouldn't be DISALLOWED by the laws of the club, IF it is recognized on campus and part of that recognition is an evenly enforced anti-discrimination rule.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between saying something SHOULD happen and saying something shouldn't be DISALLOWED?
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Even better, though, he directed that comment towards me, the person who says they SHOULD be allowed to have ideological requirements for their leadership (as any other club should be allowed to do) but doesn't buy into the victim mentality bull**** being spewed about them being "persecuted" for making the CHOICE to defy the universities rules, which ARE applied equally.

That's the funniest part of the whole thing, and the irony of presenting that strawman toward me here. I've argued the exact opposite of the strawman, but since I take the conservative stance of personal responsibility, and denounce the feigned victim bull**** for what it is, I am some liberal hippie or something. It's hilarious.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
did you read the MSA constitution which is linked?

"Section *1: The General Body of the MSA will consist of Members as defined below. Members are those who have met the following criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry, age, ability status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students, Staff, or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity."

There was also no requirement of being Muslim to become an executive.
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Guess what they're discriminating against me.... I don't live in the Ann Arbor vicinity and I'm not a student there... But I suppose rules are rules eh? Kinda like a rule that you should be a Christian to join a ****ing Christian club? oh yeah the idiots don't understand that.

Maybe next we can argue about how it's appropriate to hire a plumber to fix your car and why it is awsomeness to hire a mechanic to fix your plumbing... Because it only makes sense.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Fisher said:
I still think it is heavy-handed to end a club just because they would not make a cosmetic change to a written document--to me that is even more absurd. It would be like saying "Hey, it's ok if you discriminate just so we can tell people looking at our school that we don't". It is PC taken to an Orwellian level to me.
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an admitted COSMETIC change to the bylaws
something the club refused to do, despite such cosmetic change would have absolutely NO impact on the clubs operations
a cosmetic change, needed so that a publicly funded university could comply with the federal non-discrimination regulations that would bar such federal funding if discrimination was officially tolerated
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
Oh, fun note about the Club that Mr. Nick linked to. The website has the Clubs constitution...you konw, it's written down laws. You can find it HERE

Looky here:



You can also see under Operations their procedures for being elected to the executive board. You will note that there is no requirement what so ever in terms of being a Muslim or signing a statement of faith regarding Islam.
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It would have been nice to see the by-laws of this club. I'm thinking they are the Chinese club whose page is offline.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
Irony.



Not just one, either. But don't read too much into my lean. It doesn't mean what you think it does.



That is an obvious strawman, which is part of the reason why your previous question of "Do you know the definition of logic" is so incredibly ironic. Hilariously so.




Pretending to be a victim because of a conscious decision to flaunt the rules in an utterly meaningless way for no other purpose than to feign victimhood and **** upon the very conservative concept of taking personal responsibility for one's choices in response ot the other stupid ****. That's the "next" thing which shows how incredibly ****ing stupid society has become. It's going on right now, though.

Hopefully the next step will be society smartening the **** up and rectifying both types of astounding stupidity, but the cynical part of me doesn't see that happening.
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I'm not a victim of anything, I'm just perplexed by the notion that some think its wrong that being a Christian shouldn't be a prerequisite to joining a Christian club.

I don't care either way, however your mind boggles my mind.

The notion a Christian club must have non-Christian leadership is probably about one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.... It's like arguing someone can eat their own head.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

American said:
It would have been nice to see the by-laws of this club. I'm thinking they are the Chinese club whose page is offline.
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You mean the club in question that was being removed? It wasn't the Chinese Club. It was the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship. It's still listed on the CLUB page for U of M. I can't get to their site due to web filter blocks currently, but you can try and take a peek.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Guess what they're discriminating against me.... I don't live in the Ann Arbor vicinity and I'm not a student there...
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All university approved clubs can discriminate based on those reasons. It's equal treatment
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

HonestJoe said:
A Christian group can require it's leaders to be anything they want. They just can't be affiliated with and supported by the University if their structures are in conflict with the Universities rules. Again, University organisations are meant to bring students together, not divide them.
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Bring them together into what? Do they want to be brought together? Are they in training to be sheep?

So the University is all for diversity as long as the students are 'brought together'. When political correctness becomes policy, the contradictions become ever creepier.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

justabubba said:
an admitted COSMETIC change to the bylaws
something the club refused to do, despite such cosmetic change would have absolutely NO impact on the clubs operations
a cosmetic change, needed so that a publicly funded university could comply with the federal non-discrimination regulations that would bar such federal funding if discrimination was officially tolerated
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If you are willing to give into absurdity, then that is your right. They were not, and that was their right. I am sorry, but I do not believe that the federal government would actually abandon UM because of a Christian Club not changing their paperwork; telling the club that it is okay if that they discriminate just so long as it does not theoretically appear as if they do is a far more egregious violation of the absurd rules than the club's refusal to participate in the charade. Nothing will change either of our positions.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I'm not a victim of anything, I'm just perplexed by the notion that some think its wrong that being a Christian shouldn't be a prerequisite to joining a Christian club.

I don't care either way, however your mind boggles my mind.
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i noticed
your 22 posts out of 116 total convince us that you don't care about this topic

The notion a Christian club must have non-Christian leadership is probably about one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.... It's like arguing someone can eat their own head.
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your comprehension needs to be re-calibrated
there is NOTHING which requires "a Christian club must have non-Christian leadership"
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I'm not a victim of anything
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You've been claiming that this group is being victimized.

I'm just perplexed by the notion that some think its wrong that being a Christian shouldn't be a prerequisite to joining a Christian club.
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Nobody ever made any such claim, nor has anyone implied that they have any such notions. That's entirely a product of your own imagination.

People have said that being a Christian should not be a prerequisite to joining any University Endorsed Club, even if that club happens to be a Christian one. In fact, it's even more general than that. People are saying that no characteristics related to age, gender, religion, creed, sexual orientation etc. should be a prerequisite for joining ANY University Endorsed club.

That's vastly different than what you have imagined to be the case.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
All university approved clubs can discriminate based on those reasons. It's equal treatment
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In my ideal national view I would certainly support that and do - however the logistics just don't work that way.

What I see are a bunch of idiot wanna be progressive collectivists singling out a christian group just because they hate them while using illogical ideals to boot them.

You still don't get it do you?

They hate everyone who doesn't give Marx's corpse a BJ or who isn't "diverse" enough to their liking.

This is why we have illogical retards seriously believing that a non-Christian should in some universe should have a leadership role in a Christian club.

Do you have any comprehension of how Goddamn stupid that is?

You may as well agree that a steel fabricator should be a banker next - just because.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Dezaad said:
A Muslim club cannot insist its leader be Muslim, a gay club can't insist it's leader be gay, a women's club can't insist it's leader be female, a latino club cannot insist its leader be latino, a black club cannot insist that it's leader be black, and the Christian club cannot insist that it's leader be Christian.

The very same non-discrimination rule applies to everyone equally. No one is being persecuted here.
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What difference can it make to the University if Muslims want only Muslims in their club? Or Blacks want only Blacks? Does anyone but the most overly sensitive wimps actually care about these things?? If they are not causing harm to others what possible difference can it make?

Change the silly rules.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
You've been claiming that this group is being victimized.



Nobody ever made any such claim, nor has anyone implied that they have any such notions. That's entirely a product of your own imagination.

People have said that being a Christian should not be a prerequisite to joining any University Endorsed Club, even if that club happens to be a Christian one. In fact, it's even more general than that. People are saying that no characteristics related to age, gender, religion, creed, sexual orientation etc. should be a prerequisite for joining ANY University Endorsed club.

That's vastly different than what you have imagined to be the case.
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No, they're not a "victim" however the progressives are ****ing with them for sure...

They're only a victim of epic stupidity...

I mean they're only saying "your christian club needs a non-christian to play a leadership role." Now do you have any ****ing idea how dumb that request is? It's like saying in order for my hockey team to be legit I need a basketball player on my team.

It's ****ing stupid ****...
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Grant said:
What difference can it make to the University if Muslims want only Muslims in their club? Or Blacks want only Blacks? Does anyone but the most overly sensitive wimps actually care about these things?? If they are not causing harm to others what possible difference can it make?

Change the silly rules.
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because the federal bureaucrats, charged with making sure non-discrimination laws are enforced at publicly funded institutions will put a hold on the university's federal funds if it is found the university knowingly tolerated opportunities for discrimination - even mild ones such as this
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
In my ideal national view I would certainly support that and do - however the logistics just don't work that way.
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The logistics are working that way perfectly.

What I see are a bunch of idiot wanna be progressive collectivists singling out a christian group just because they hate them while using illogical ideals to boot them.
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You see something imaginary, though.

You still don't get it do you?
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I get it perfectly. You haven't done any research (as you have admitted), you don't actually know what you are talking about (as you have demonstrated) but because this is a Christian group, you've decided that, based upon this foundation of ignorance alone you can claim that there has been some disservice done to them.

They hate everyone who doesn't give Marx's corpse a BJ or who isn't "diverse" enough to their liking.
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Oh snap! You're a poe, aren't you?

This is why we have illogical retards seriously believing that a non-Christian should in some universe should have a leadership role in a Christian club.
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We don't have that. That's all a product of the paranoid imaginings of those who have not employed logic to the situation in any way.

Do you have any comprehension of how Goddamn stupid that is?
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Absolutely. But the big question is if you have any comprehension of how goddamn imaginary it is?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
No, they're not a "victim" however the progressives are ****ing with them for sure...
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Progressives forced them to make the stupid decision not to change the rules, which were redundant at any rate?

They're only a victim of epic stupidity...
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Of course, but it is their own stupidity which they have been victimized by.

I mean they're only saying "your christian club needs a non-christian to play a leadership role."
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No they aren't.

Now do you have any ****ing idea how dumb that request is?
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Of course. Thank god it's imaginary! Could you imagine what it would be like if such things were real?!?!?!
 
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