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University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
They are being treated differently...

What do you call this dude?

MSA Home | University of Michigan Muslim Students' Association
Click to expand...

I call it a club focused around Islam.

Similar to the 16 other clubs focused around Christianity.

Do you have any evidence what so ever that they have a requirement in their clubs bylaws that one must be muslim to be a member or to be a part of the groups leadership?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Andalublue said:
Yup. Discrimination, I tell ya! How they'd feel at my old Alma Mater where we had 2 Christian socs: Christian Union and CathSoc. That was it. There was also a Satanist Club, a Wiccan Club and a Norse Pagan society. Mind you, that was the Eighties and England.
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But did the Christian Union offer everyone the choice between cake or death? If so, then it's alright.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
I'll research it for you. Here's the link to their list of clubs UoM clubs

Here's their list of religious clubs alone:



All those in Bold are obvoiusly CHRISTIAN groups that University of Michigan allow on campus. However they likely, unlike the one in question, don't have a requirement in their rules that one must be Christian to hold a leadership position or to join the group...thus adhering to the anti-discrimination policy.

That's 16 clear Christian clubs, with a few more likely in there with ambiguous names.

Will non-Christians likely join the clubs? Probably not. Just like it's unlikely a black guy will join an Asian American club or a white guy would join a Traditionally Black Fraternity. But there's a difference of it essentially being restricted due to defacto human nature, and actually having the restrictions placed in the bylaws of the club.
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Do you understand your argument?

Society has become retarded when it is foreign to a mind that being christian should be a prerequisite to being a member of a "christian club."

I don't understand the idea that a christian club needs non-christians - it makes no damn sense whatsoever to me.

Show me a ****ing club that has leadership that contradicts the clubs ideas - if you can do that I will eat my beard.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
They are being treated differently...

What do you call this dude?

MSA Home | University of Michigan Muslim Students' Association
Click to expand...

did you read the MSA constitution which is linked?

"Section *1: The General Body of the MSA will consist of Members as defined below. Members are those who have met the following criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry, age, ability status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students, Staff, or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity."

There was also no requirement of being Muslim to become an executive.
 
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Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Oh, fun note about the Club that Mr. Nick linked to. The website has the Clubs constitution...you konw, it's written down laws. You can find it HERE

Looky here:

Section 1

The General Body of the MSA will consist of Members as defined below. Members are those who have met the following criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry, age, ability status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students, Staff, or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity.
Click to expand...

You can also see under Operations their procedures for being elected to the executive board. You will note that there is no requirement what so ever in terms of being a Muslim or signing a statement of faith regarding Islam.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
They are being treated differently...

What do you call this dude?

MSA Home | University of Michigan Muslim Students' Association
Click to expand...
thanks for the link
it enables me to document that the muslim club is open to those of any (or no) faith:
Section 1: The General Body of the MSA will consist of Members as defined below. Members
are those who have met the following criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall
not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry,
age, ability status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students,
Staff, or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity
Click to expand...
too bad the same cannot be said of that Christian organization which wants to have the right to exclude non-Christians
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
They are being treated differently...

What do you call this dude?

MSA Home | University of Michigan Muslim Students' Association
Click to expand...

Quote from that very site:
Members are those who have met the folllwing criteria, as interpreted by the Executive Board, which shall not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, gender, religion, sect/creed, national origin or ancestry, age, ability, status, marital status, or sexual orientation: members must be University Students, Staff or Faculty from a college in the Ann Arbor vicinity.
*
Click to expand...

*
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

justabubba said:
thanks for the link
it enables me to document that the muslim club is open to those of any (or no) faith:

too bad the same cannot be said of that Christian organization which wants to have the right to exclude non-Christians
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Damn! Beat me to it.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Show me a ****ing club that has leadership that contradicts the clubs ideas...
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Even without explicit rules excluding non-Christians from being leaders, all of those Christian organizations manage to achieve the non-contradiction goal. How do they do that?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Do you understand your argument?

Society has become retarded when it is foreign to a mind that being christian should be a prerequisite to being a member of a "christian club."

I don't understand the idea that a christian club needs non-christians - it makes no damn sense whatsoever to me.

Show me a ****ing club that has leadership that contradicts the clubs ideas - if you can do that I will eat my beard.
Click to expand...

show me a club that would ELECT to its leadership someone who did not have acceptable views to the majority of those who cast ballots in the election
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
Oh, fun note about the Club that Mr. Nick linked to. The website has the Clubs constitution...you konw, it's written down laws. You can find it HERE

Looky here:



You can also see under Operations their procedures for being elected to the executive board. You will note that there is no requirement what so ever in terms of being a Muslim or signing a statement of faith regarding Islam.
Click to expand...

justabubba said:
thanks for the link
it enables me to document that the muslim club is open to those of any (or no) faith:

too bad the same cannot be said of that Christian organization which wants to have the right to exclude non-Christians
Click to expand...

Andalublue said:
Quote from that very site:


*
Click to expand...


I beat all y'all to it. :lol:
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
I call it a club focused around Islam.

Similar to the 16 other clubs focused around Christianity.

Do you have any evidence what so ever that they have a requirement in their clubs bylaws that one must be muslim to be a member or to be a part of the groups leadership?
Click to expand...

Are you serious??? hahaha

You may as well say one doesn't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club.

What the hell is wrong with you?

I know you understand my point yet you continually side-step it.

It would be illogical to join a club in which you know nothing about the clubs intent, convictions etc. What sort of idiot would join a club when they don't believe in their ideologies to begin with?

Besides, since when is membership to a club a right?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Do you understand your argument?
Click to expand...

I understand my argument and this situation fully. You're the one whose repeatedly seemingly had zero understanding or clue what is actually occuring.

Society has become retarded when it is foreign to a mind that being christian should be a prerequisite to being a member of a "christian club."
Click to expand...

No one is saying it's "foreign to a mind" that such a prerequisite may be there. Some, including myself, even suggests the zero toleranec type rule on discrimination is rather dumb. However, that doesn't change the fact that it IS there, it DOESN'T actually stop the club from only having Christian leadership, and the University went out of their way to basically tell them as much...and they still refused to adhere to the policy EVERY OTHER CLUB adheres to. That's the muslim club, the jew club, the asian club, even the 16 other CHRISTIAN CLUBS, all adhere to it.

You want to move the goal posts into arguing about soceities foolishness because you yourself have acted foolish in your continual attempt to argue this issue while remaining ignorant about the actual facts of the case and as you already said, you can't admit you're ever wrong so you're trying to change the subject.

I don't understand the idea that a christian club needs non-christians - it makes no damn sense whatsoever to me.
Click to expand...

Who said it NEEDS non-christians? It doesn't NEED it. There's no requirement that they have a non-christian in the club. The only requirement is that if someone is interested in joining they can't be BARRED from joining or being in leadership.

Show me a ****ing club that has leadership that contradicts the clubs ideas - if you can do that I will eat my beard.
Click to expand...

NO ONE is saying that a club can't make sure leadership oesn't contradict the clubs ideas. Hell, the University all but acknowledged that by suggesting that all the club had to do was take it out of writing and it could go on doing the same thing it's been doing without any problem at all. The majority of people on this thread acknowledge, and many even support, the notion that a black clubs leadership is almost aways going to be black...a muslim clubs leadership is almost always going to be muslim...a christians clubs leadership is almost always going to be christian....etc. The issue is having it in writing, as part of the bylaws, making it enforced discrimination rather than discrimination by realistic happenstance.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

justabubba said:
show me a club that would ELECT to its leadership someone who did not have acceptable views to the majority of those who cast ballots in the election
Click to expand...

That's the whole point - they wouldn't.

A better question to ask is: why anyone would join a club they're opposed to or don't care for then expect to be leadership of that club.

May as well make me being a capitalist leadership in a communist club.... Maybe as a christian I can be leadership in a Muslim club, or possibly a leadership role in a black club....

Does "get in where you fit in" mean anything to anyone?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
You may as well say one doesn't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club.
Click to expand...

You don't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club. You probably WOULDN'T join the chess club if you don't know a damn thing about chess, but that's different than you being disallowed to join.

What the hell is wrong with you?
Click to expand...

Based on your posts in this thread....apparently that I actually deal with facts and reality?

I know you understand my point yet you continually side-step it.
Click to expand...

What point? It's hard to find it amongst all the bull**** you've made up and stated repeatedly as if it's fact.

It would be illogical to join a club in which you know nothing about the clubs intent, convictions etc.
Click to expand...

Something I've acknowledged repeatedly in this thread. Who is arguing against that? You're beating up on a strawman, which fits in well with the rest of your imagined situation in this particular topic.

Besides, since when is membership to a club a right?
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No one has a right to join any cluub of any kind. No one also has a right to have a UNIVERSITY ENDORSED CLUB. But students DO have the right to not be denied entry into a UNIVERSITY ENDORSED CLUB based on sex, race, or religion based on the Universities rules that said club agreed to in order to become endorsed by the University.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
That's the whole point - they wouldn't.
Click to expand...

Thus making an explicit rule excluding them from such roles little more than an open attempt to flaunt the Universities rules in order to feign persecution.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
Since when is University approval of a club a right?
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Since the Fourteenth Amendment (due process clause).

You would have a point if we were talking about a private university but we're not.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
You don't need to know a damn thing about chess to join the chess club. You probably WOULDN'T join the chess club if you don't know a damn thing about chess, but that's different than you being disallowed to join.
Click to expand...

It's a great way to learn about chess.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
That's the whole point - they wouldn't.

A better question to ask is: why anyone would join a club they're opposed to or don't care for then expect to be leadership of that club.

May as well make me being a capitalist leadership in a communist club.... Maybe as a christian I can be leadership in a Muslim club, or possibly a leadership role in a black club....

Does "get in where you fit in" mean anything to anyone?
Click to expand...

actually, i could see an unusual - but possible - circumstance where this non-discrimination could be significant
if the club membership is small, then a band of like minded folks, opposed to what the club represented, could join and by force of superior numbers, elect and install as the chair of the Christian club someone who was an atheist
i expect that prospect to light you up, but then your posts appear to be highly flammable, anyway
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
That's the whole point - they wouldn't.

A better question to ask is: why anyone would join a club they're opposed to or don't care for then expect to be leadership of that club.

May as well make me being a capitalist leadership in a communist club.... Maybe as a christian I can be leadership in a Muslim club, or possibly a leadership role in a black club....

Does "get in where you fit in" mean anything to anyone?
Click to expand...

And you're not likely to be voted into leadership in a communist club as a capitalist. You're not likely to be voted into leadership in a muslim club as a christian. You're not likely to be voted into leadership in a black club if yo'ure white. I've said that REPEATEDLY in this thread, so have others.

That's common sense, that's what would happen without any actual written rule in their constitution what so ever. That's even what the University basically tacitly acknowledged when they suggested the club take the wording out of their bylaws and continue along on their normal path.

The issue is that, rather than allow that to happen in a defacto natural and common sense way, the club obstinently decided to put it in writing in their laws and refused to take it out. None of the other 16+ Christian clubs on campus seemingly have an issue with non-christians getting into leadership roles without it written out in their club rules...precisely for the reason you suggest. Which is why the blatant violation of the rules anti-discrimination policy that the club agreed to in order to become an official club is idiotic.

And you've still demonstrated zero bias on behalf of the school against this club.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Since the Fourteenth Amendment (due process clause).
Click to expand...

No, that doesn't grant them a right to be approved, it means that the rules for approval apply equally. They failed to meet abide by the equally applied rules. They did not have any rights violated.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Since the Fourteenth Amendment (due process clause).
Click to expand...

How does the 14th amendment require Universities to officially recognize and providesanctioned benefits to any and all clubs sans any regulation. I'm really anxious to hear this explanation.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

This is just taking the non-discrimination policy to the absurd. Whatever happened to the right to associate in academia? Fraternities should not have to have girls; nor sororities boys; nor any group those whom they do not want to admit.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
Thus making an explicit rule excluding them from such roles little more than an open attempt to flaunt the Universities rules in order to feign persecution.
Click to expand...

Do you know the definition of logic?

Also, I'm amazed a conservative is even arguing this with me.

I'm still perplexed at the notion some posters here seem to think a non-christian should have a leadership role in a christian club.

It makes no ****ing sense.

If anything it shows how ****ing stupid society actually is.

What's next? suing people because they don't want to be your friend? I suppose I shouldn't be throwing ideas out there.
 
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