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University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus[W: 196]

Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

zyphlin concludes a post with the following
...a TINY bit of common sense should perhaps be afforded to them.
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but a bit of inside info from a Univ. of Michigan student, seems to show a 'desire' for martyrdom by the xian student group was more important than compliance with published standards for student clubs.
The Humble Empiricist: Discrimination? Not On My Campus!

The situation has been framed as a discrimination issue, which is ironic considering what actually happened. Here at the University of Michigan, we have an anti-discrimination policy. It's pretty straightforward; student organizations that are sanctioned by the University must be inclusive to all people regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc. All of a student organization's policies and activities must adhere to University policy or the University will not recognize them. There are plenty of benefits to being a recognized student organization; RSOs are elligible for funding, facilities and resources from the University that they would otherwise have to provide themselves. Following the rules is a very small price to pay for the sanction that the University provides.

Enter the InterVarsity Christian fellowship. This Christian student organization on campus had the signing of a statement of faith as a requirement for leadership in the group. It seems obvious that a Christian group would have Christian leadership, but the requirement in black and white that leaders MUST be Christian violated the University's anti-discrimination policy. The University asked them to change their policy and they refused, meaning that they are no longer recognized as a student organization at the University of Michigan. The result is of course a projection of the image of martyrdom.
<snip>
Our "Secular Student Association" actually was asked to amend our own constitution last year because it didn't meet University standards. We did so. There is no reason on earth that removing a signed profession of faith from the requirements would hurt the organization. Even if a non-Christian did want to run for office in that club, no one would vote for him/her. The InterVarsity Fellowship's decision to defy their superiors was made out of pure stubbornness. Being reprimanded for not abiding by the same rules as every other group is NOT discrimination.
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Please read the SCOTUS decision I linked to in post #21
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Are you ****ting me?

Ignorance is saying a Muslim can have a "club" a gay can have a "club" woman can have a "club" Latinos can have a "club" blacks can have a "club" Latin majors can have a "club" but Christians cant have a club...

How does it feel to be a blatant hypocrite?
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Who said Christians can't have a club?

Can you provide factual information that there's a Muslim club on that campus that requires that it's leadership be muslim?

Can you provide factual information that there's a gay club on the campus that requires that it's leadership be gay?

Can you provide factual information that there's a latino club on campus that requires that it's leadership be latino?

Can you provide factual information that there's a black club on campus that requires that it's leadership be black?

Did you know that "traditionally black fraternities" like Omega Psi Phi (You may have seen individuals with an "Omega" symbol branded onto them, they were likely brothers of that fraternity) don't, and can't, have a requirement that their fraternity or their campus leadership must be black?

While I think the reaction by the school was worthy of an eye roll and a rather ridiculous instance of letting slavish adherance to the rules overcome a bit of common sense, that doesn't change the fact that the situations you're seemingly describing aren't accurate. It wasn't that "christians can't have a club" while others can, it's that the Christians can't make their clubs leadership limited by religion. If you can show that another club has a limitation based on sex, religion, race, etc on that campus then perhaps you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're ranting and raving about nonsense and a situation that exists only in your head.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Are you ****ting me?

Ignorance is saying a Muslim can have a "club" a gay can have a "club" woman can have a "club" Latinos can have a "club" blacks can have a "club" Latin majors can have a "club" but Christians cant have a club...

How does it feel to be a blatant hypocrite?
Click to expand...
A Muslim club cannot insist its leader be Muslim, a gay club can't insist it's leader be gay, a women's club can't insist it's leader be female, a latino club cannot insist its leader be latino, a black club cannot insist that it's leader be black, and the Christian club cannot insist that it's leader be Christian.

The very same non-discrimination rule applies to everyone equally. No one is being persecuted here.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Somerville said:
So much fun reading stuff from some of those who proudly post their ignorance
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Mr.Nick said:
Are you ****ting me?

Ignorance is saying a Muslim can have a "club" a gay can have a "club" woman can have a "club" Latinos can have a "club" blacks can have a "club" Latin majors can have a "club" but Christians cant have a club...

How does it feel to be a blatant hypocrite?
Click to expand...

I'll just post it again: So much fun reading stuff from some of those who proudly post their ignorance, particularly when I posted a link to a SCOTUS decision that says the xian club wouldn't make it past the district court level if they try to sue the university.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

The University asked them to change their policy and they refused, meaning that they are no longer recognized as a student organization at the University of Michigan. The result is of course a projection of the image of martyrdom.
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In that case, ****'em. The School actually DID use some common sense...rather than immedietely pull their status they basically gave them a clear, obvoius, reasonable out. They all but seemingly said "Change your written rules and you can still black ball any none Christian from ever being in leadership, just don't have that written out" and the group refused. That's a completely reasonable action on the part of a PUBLIC university where you need both equitable and fair enforcement of the rules but also an understanding eye towards the student body. Rather than immedietely punish, you attempt to help get them within policy while changing as little of their groups day to day dealings as possible.

The fact the group refused removes any sympathy I have for them, what so ever. Suddenly they want to be special and have the ability to do something no other group does. They're not special nor do they magically deserve to be allowed to do something that no other group on campus does. This isn't "discrimination against Christianity", it's a school attempting to enforce it's rules in the least strict way possible and being met by a punch to the face that forced their hand.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

American said:
Too bad the university can't practice its own policy, and discriminates against an Asian Christian club.....the racist Christian-phobic hypocrites. I think that they should write their representatives and find out how much tax money the university is getting, and work on killing that. They should contact the ACLU.
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How is it "discriminating against an Asian Christian Club"?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
This is a club, no endorsement needed.
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Actually, for it to be an official CAMPUS club it would need CAMPUS endorsement. The campus can't say jack **** if they want to form a non-campus club and get together and do whatever they want. Hell, I was involved with a group that was an off-campus organization for almost 7 of my 10 semesters at college. Nothing is stopping htem what so ever to being a non-campus affiliated club.

However that's not what they were trying to be. They were a club that wanted ENDORSEMENT by the University. In having such endorsement, it would allow them additional privledges and abilities within the university such as greater ability to reserve rooms, potentially office space, advertising in an official capacity, etc. You're literally ranting and raving about a situation that is in no way, shape, or form representitive of the reality of THIS actual situation.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
Who said Christians can't have a club?

Can you provide factual information that there's a Muslim club on that campus that requires that it's leadership be muslim?

Can you provide factual information that there's a gay club on the campus that requires that it's leadership be gay?

Can you provide factual information that there's a latino club on campus that requires that it's leadership be latino?

Can you provide factual information that there's a black club on campus that requires that it's leadership be black?

Did you know that "traditionally black fraternities" like Omega Psi Phi (You may have seen individuals with an "Omega" symbol branded onto them, they were likely brothers of that fraternity) don't, and can't, have a requirement that their fraternity or their campus leadership must be black?

While I think the reaction by the school was worthy of an eye roll and a rather ridiculous instance of letting slavish adherance to the rules overcome a bit of common sense, that doesn't change the fact that the situations you're seemingly describing aren't accurate. It wasn't that "christians can't have a club" while others can, it's that the Christians can't make their clubs leadership limited by religion. If you can show that another club has a limitation based on sex, religion, race, etc on that campus then perhaps you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're ranting and raving about nonsense and a situation that exists only in your head.
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Edit..

Sorry I replied to the wrong post.. However I will add my 2cents on what you say.

Clubs can do whatever they like, that's why they're clubs. To be part of a club you have to be invited or accepted via application.

For example I'm part of a lake resort club, we have a clubhouse which is pretty much a fully stocked bar - it was a public bar at one time. Now, in Illinois smoking in bars is illegal, however we're exempt from that because that is NOT a bar - its a club... Now what the hell would the point be to have a club if someone can just nose their way in and dictate what the hell that club does or doesn't do??? It kinda defeats the purpose no?
 
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Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

HonestJoe said:
If you read the actual article being discussed, you'd know that already.
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My point (made humorously) was that the qualification is ridiculous because there's no standard of proof. No one can prove what's in your heart re: your spirituality.

How many Christians do we see every day that act anything but?

Even though there's no way to prove what your true intentions/beliefs are, the University is still wrong to kick them off IMO.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
That is one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard.

You may as well argue that it's unfair that a democrat isn't head of the RNC or that a white person isn't head of the NAACP or that a man isn't head of a feminist organization...

Why the hell would someone want to join a club in which principals they don't believe in? of course those who like to argue and step over the line just to make trouble while people like you sit there and defend the idiocy...
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or, in other words, "I got nothin' but no way, no how, am I gonna admit that I might be wrong!"
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
Actually, for it to be an official CAMPUS club it would need CAMPUS endorsement. The campus can't say jack **** if they want to form a non-campus club and get together and do whatever they want. Hell, I was involved with a group that was an off-campus organization for almost 7 of my 10 semesters at college. Nothing is stopping htem what so ever to being a non-campus affiliated club.

However that's not what they were trying to be. They were a club that wanted ENDORSEMENT by the University. In having such endorsement, it would allow them additional privledges and abilities within the university such as greater ability to reserve rooms, potentially office space, advertising in an official capacity, etc. You're literally ranting and raving about a situation that is in no way, shape, or form representitive of the reality of THIS actual situation.
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I don't care to argue, however I will say that the simple fact this debate even exists is because progressives are biased mother****ers...

They should have every right to have their club. This club should sue for discrimination.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Somerville said:
or, in other words, "I got nothin' but no way, no how, am I gonna admit that I might be wrong!"
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I'm not wrong - I am never wrong. Those siding with authority are always wrong.

Telling people they cant have a club is wrong... What the **** are they doing that is so ****ing bad they shouldn't have a club? oh yeah progressives hate God because they believe they're God or Gods or that the government is God. Or they just hate Christianity entirely..

Why do you defend such biased bull**** while pretending to promote equality?

You're so full of yourself it's pathetic.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Clubs can do whatever they like, that's why they're clubs. To be part of a club you have to be invited or accepted via application.
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Yes, they can do whatever they like, IF they don't want to be an OFFICIAL CAMPUS club that is SUPPORTED by the campus.

Mr.Nick said:
For example I'm part of a lake resort club, we have a clubhouse which is pretty much a fully stocked bar - it was a public bar at one time. Now, in Illinois smoking in bars is illegal, however we're exempt from that because that is NOT a bar - its a club... Now what the hell would the point be to have a club if someone can just nose their way in and dictate what the hell that club does or doesn't do??? It kinda defeats the purpose no?
Click to expand...

And if your club wanted to be supported by some organization, you would have to abided by whatever rules that organization wanted if you wanted their support. You would then have to choose to either abide by their rules to keep their support or you would do what you like without their support.

Now this club is free to do whatever they like, they just won't get campus support.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I don't care to argue, however I will say that the simple fact this debate even exists is because progressives are biased mother****ers...

They should have every right to have their club. This club should sue for discrimination.
Click to expand...

Hilarity ensues!


All too common in our world today - claims of discrimination when those who consider themselves special aren't allowed to ignore the rules the rest of us have to follow.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Telling people they cant have a club is wrong...
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They aren't telling them they can't have a club, they are saying the campus won't support it and it won't be an official club. Sorry, but if they don't like it, they are free to have their club without campus support.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
I'm not wrong - I am never wrong. Those siding with authority are always wrong.
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Wait a minute, you just got done saying you are part of a club where not everyone can join. You are supporting that authority that won't let everyone join. :lamo

OMG do you even read your posts before you hit "post"?
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Edit..

Sorry I replied to the wrong post.. However I will add my 2cents on what you say.

Clubs can do whatever they like, that's why they're clubs. To be part of a club you have to be invited or accepted via application.

For example I'm part of a lake resort club, we have a clubhouse which is pretty much a fully stocked bar - it was a public bar at one time. Now, in Illinois smoking in bars is illegal, however we're exempt from that because that is NOT a bar - its a club... Now what the hell would the point be to have a club if someone can just nose their way in and dictate what the hell that club does or doesn't do??? It kinda defeats the purpose no?
Click to expand...

You miss the point like the other ranters. All they had to do was comply with the rules. Other clubs seem to find it easy. They elect the leaders they want, while nominally making the positions open to all.
The idea that a non-Christian would join a Christian club, suffer attending all their meetings, and encourage sufficient friends to join in order to win election to the leadership is ludicrous and more than a little paranoid. Even then, why would they want to do that? It's no more than yet another "Christians under attack" dogwhistle.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Edit..

Sorry I replied to the wrong post.. However I will add my 2cents on what you say.

Clubs can do whatever they like, that's why they're clubs. To be part of a club you have to be invited or accepted via application.
Click to expand...

.....

Read the words that I'm writing.

Clubs, in a GENERAL sense, CAN do whatever they like.

Clubs, that want OFFICIAL SCHOOL RECOGNITION, have to adhere to school policies.

If the interfaith group wanted to be the former, there would be zero issues. They could be the former, a general club, RIGHT NOW if they want.

However they wanted to be an OFFICIAL SCHOOL RECOGNIZED club. Which means they have to adhere to the same policies every other group on campus adhered to.

Mr.Nick said:
I don't care to argue, however I will say that the simple fact this debate even exists is because progressives are biased mother****ers...
Click to expand...

After your action and patentedly retarded statements in this thread, none of which actually address the actual situation occuring, you have zero[/] room to speak about anyone being biased.

They should have every right to have their club. This club should sue for discrimination.
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There would have to be discrimination for them to be able to sue in any worth while method. There is none. You've demonstrated none. You've bitched, whined, and ranted about a fabricated scenario with no proof and with no bearing on the current story and that's been your basis for crying discrimination. It's not htere.

They wanted to be an OFFICIAL campus club.

They wanted to have in writing that to be a leader in that club you had to be a specific religion.

That is against the schools policies for OFFICIALLY recognized clubs.

Thus far, there has been zero evidence provided suggesting any other club has such a written requirement.

The School went to them an gave them an easy out, telling them they could remain an OFFICIAL club if they just removed the requirement (they could still just basically never vote into leadership a non-christian if they wanted)

The club refused to change it, and thus was removed...appropriately.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

TheNextEra said:
Wait a minute, you just got done saying you are part of a club where not everyone can join. You are supporting that authority that won't let everyone join. :lamo

OMG do you even read your posts before you hit "post"?
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Well if you buy a summer home at the resort you automatically join. Weather or not an individual wants to partake in the functions is up to the individual.

So yeah there are prerequisites like buying a house, but it's not like anyone can just walk into the clubhouse and ask for a beer.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Edit..

Sorry I replied to the wrong post.. However I will add my 2cents on what you say.

Clubs can do whatever they like, that's why they're clubs. To be part of a club you have to be invited or accepted via application.

For example I'm part of a lake resort club, we have a clubhouse which is pretty much a fully stocked bar - it was a public bar at one time. Now, in Illinois smoking in bars is illegal, however we're exempt from that because that is NOT a bar - its a club... Now what the hell would the point be to have a club if someone can just nose their way in and dictate what the hell that club does or doesn't do??? It kinda defeats the purpose no?
Click to expand...

and if the club did not want to use PUBLICLY funded facilities they could fashion the covenant for the PRIVATE club to exclude from the club leadership anyone who was not Christian
however, while on a publicly funded campus, using publicly funded facilities, the club's charter cannot compel bias as a condition of membership. it has to welcome all prospects regardless of race/ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, disability, and/or religion

and as has been mentioned. all the club needed to do to remain in good standing was to modify its charter to allow non-Christians to hold leadership positions - as if any would garner the votes to do so. the Christian club did this to itself. probably consists of a bunch of fundies
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Mr.Nick said:
Well if you buy a summer home at the resort you automatically join. Weather or not an individual wants to partake in the functions is up to the individual.

So yeah there are prerequisites like buying a house, but it's not like anyone can just walk into the clubhouse and ask for a beer.
Click to expand...

So you support authority as long as it's authority YOU like. What a ****ing hypocrite. You're dismissed.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Zyphlin said:
.....

Read the words that I'm writing.

Clubs, in a GENERAL sense, CAN do whatever they like.

Clubs, that want OFFICIAL SCHOOL RECOGNITION, have to adhere to school policies.

If the interfaith group wanted to be the former, there would be zero issues. They could be the former, a general club, RIGHT NOW if they want.

However they wanted to be an OFFICIAL SCHOOL RECOGNIZED club. Which means they have to adhere to the same policies every other group on campus adhered to.



After your action and patentedly retarded statements in this thread, none of which actually address the actual situation occuring, you have zero[/] room to speak about anyone being biased.



There would have to be discrimination for them to be able to sue in any worth while method. There is none. You've demonstrated none. You've bitched, whined, and ranted about a fabricated scenario with no proof and with no bearing on the current story and that's been your basis for crying discrimination. It's not htere.

They wanted to be an OFFICIAL campus club.

They wanted to have in writing that to be a leader in that club you had to be a specific religion.

That is against the schools policies for OFFICIALLY recognized clubs.

Thus far, there has been zero evidence provided suggesting any other club has such a written requirement.

The School went to them an gave them an easy out, telling them they could remain an OFFICIAL club if they just removed the requirement (they could still just basically never vote into leadership a non-christian if they wanted)

The club refused to change it, and thus was removed...appropriately.
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Did it ever occur to you that the schools policies may be bias?

Oh no of course you didn't.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Tucker Case said:
Nobody is preventing them from having the club.
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No the school is just being biased about their club.
 
Re: University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club off Campus

Why do Christians think they should be exempt from whatever rules they dislike?

If they don't like the university's requirements to be an officially-recognized club, they should just not bother with that university recognition part and go do their own thing. You know, that whole individual responsibility thing instead of depending on big scary government to promote their group for them. Right?

If my religion requires goat sacrifice, I shouldn't expect that the university would let me do it on campus with official recognition just because it's my religion.

Or they could do what Zyphlin said. Remove the requirement and just vote for Christian leaders. It's not like an atheist was ever going to take that spot.
 
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