Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years[W: 395]

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Dwight said:

“Local government” by itself is not so much the problem as it is local funding. Education funding in this state (Texas) could use some serious reform by way of switching to a fully State funded system. The problem with so much of the school budgets built around local property tax is that not all property is equal, in value or in the number of students living in it that are expected to be supported by it. The ISD level is too granular to even that out. EDIT: State level is enough to even it out pretty well, no need to take the bulk to the Federal level.

That move would also make other reforms easier to expand on such as semi-private schools and such, although we do have some State charter schooling already.

But the likelihood of seeing it happen soon is sadly pretty low because there is so much interest in keeping up the class walls, so much myth of the current state of affairs being a merit based system.

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To what extent is the state playing Robin Hood desired by your "Libetarian - Left" philosophy? You realize that you are saying that the rich should subsidize the poor. Should this be only for education, or for all "needs", on a statewide basis? Local gov'ts (ISDs) are thus useless, so they should be abolished to save even more tax money, since taxation without representation is a VERY bad idea. If things are funded at the state level then they should also be controlled at the state level.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Jetboogieman said:

Our countries economy is doing better, we're on a path to a balanced budget at the Federal Level and I've only ever held private sector jobs.

And to top it all off we have a welfare system of sorts and universal Healthcare.

You didn't answer my question though.

Is it Obamas fault that people are unemployed or is it their own fault?

you seem to indicate the latter.

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Your economy may be doing better because you have the United States to protect you and spend very little defending your nation.

It is Obama's fault for promoting classic liberal socialism. It is a failure everywhere in the world but liberal arrogance never accepts that reality. You give someone two years of unemployment insurance and they will lose their value to the work force.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

disneydude said:

LOL....Conservative you are too much......from your own link:


Economists said the drop in gross domestic product wasn't as bleak as it looked. The weakness was mainly the result of one-time factors. Government spending cuts and slower inventory growth,


You are such a hypocrite. you wanna claim that OBAMA is a huge Government socialist and then post link about how big government spending cuts are primarily responsibile for your "doomsday" claims.

Which way are you going to want it? Because you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth without people noticing.

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How many more businesses left California today, Disney? One of these days you are going to realize that liberalism has made a fool out of you. Wonder if I will be around to see it. What big govt. spending cuts occurred in the fourth quarter of 2012? Thanks in advance and please be specific?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

PeteEU said:

You do realize that there was a massive crash in 2008-2009 right? Your economy shrank 8.9% in the 4th quarter 2008 and 5.4% in the 1st quarter 2009 alone..

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Do you realize this is 2013 and the economy contracted last quarter? Do you realize that the economy has generated less GDP the last three years in a row than the previous year? What is it going to take to get someone like you to admit that Obama and liberalism are failures?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

disneydude said:

LOL....Conservative you are too much......from your own link:


Economists said the drop in gross domestic product wasn't as bleak as it looked. The weakness was mainly the result of one-time factors. Government spending cuts and slower inventory growth,


You are such a hypocrite. you wanna claim that OBAMA is a huge Government socialist and then post link about how big government spending cuts are primarily responsibile for your "doomsday" claims.

Which way are you going to want it? Because you can't talk out of both sides of your mouth without people noticing.

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Obama has wasted 6 trillion over the last 4 years and the Economy just SHRUNK

"But the Liberal MSM said ...."

The Economy just shrunk before the payroll tax increase took effect. You're aware of that right?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

PeteEU said:

You do realize that there was a massive crash in 2008-2009 right? Your economy shrank 8.9% in the 4th quarter 2008 and 5.4% in the 1st quarter 2009 alone..

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Yes, thats the point. While it looks like the economy has been growing since then, inflation shows a different story. The BEA reports these numbers in real dollars. But the massive borrowing being done has devalued those dollars.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Bronson said:

Obama has wasted 6 trillion over the last 4 years and the Economy just SHRUNK

"But the Liberal MSM said ...."

The Economy just shrunk before the payroll tax increase took effect. You're aware of that right?

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Come on. Everyone is to blame. Obama cant spend money without congress approving it.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Conservative said:

How many more businesses left California today, Disney? One of these days you are going to realize that liberalism has made a fool out of you. Wonder if I will be around to see it. What big govt. spending cuts occurred in the fourth quarter of 2012? Thanks in advance and please be specific?

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More deflect and shuffle. Why do expect anymore more from you?

By the way.....if you have been following the news...it looks as if your "Doomsday" predictions about California are also wrong. SHOCK....

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

ttwtt78640 said:

To what extent is the state playing Robin Hood desired by your "Libetarian - Left" philosophy? You realize that you are saying that the rich should subsidize the poor.

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We are all born unemployed. I am no Ayn Rand nut job that pretends that kids do not exist (just try to find them in Atlas Shrugged), or just outright despises them because they are such a drain on the ‘productive’ people. Nor do I descend into anarchist law-of-the-jungle fantasy and imagine that that is the only true measure of freedom and liberty.

This is a matter of practical administration.

Should this be only for education, or for all “needs”, on a statewide basis?

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I do not understand how my post could be construed for the later or are you trying to make some sort of BS ‘slippery slope’ argument?

Local gov’ts (ISDs) are thus useless, so they should be abolished to save even more tax money, since taxation without representation is a VERY bad idea.

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Exactly how do you reason that ISDs are useless? Further, how exactly is the State taxing State residents taxation without representation? Oh sure there can be property tax on non-residents but that is no different than the current state of affairs…except it would occur even less often [by definition] since a Texas resident voting at the State level may not live within the ISD that they hold a particular piece of property in.

If things are funded at the state level then they should also be controlled at the state level.

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ISDs are already overseen by the State. There are a number of stipulations and requirements placed on them, and the State has the power to step in and dissolve an ISD.

EDIT: Not that I have unshakable confidence in Austin on the education front, incidentally.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

jonny5 said:

Come on. Everyone is to blame. Obama cant spend money without congress approving it.

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I don't support the GOP Establishment

Every time Republicans have even put spending cuts on the table however what's happened?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Conservative said:

I am living proof that is an exaggeration which you seem to offer a lot of.

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No you aren't. What exactly do you think I said?

What is your excuse for not being part of the elite that you seem to be jealous of?

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Where did you get this paranoid jealousy idea from?

And I would argue that I am part of the "elite" in many ways, at least every way that I feel really matters.

How about addressing the issue?

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What issue has not been addressed?

Since we are China's biggest trading partner, yes, it helps people here.

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We're not their trading partner, we're their trading bitch as in they trade us a lot of crap and we give them a lot of money.

Apparently just following your lead

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When did I make up a bunch of nonsense and attribute it to you?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Dwight said:

We are all born unemployed. I am no Ayn Rand nut job that pretends that kids do not exist (just try to find them in Atlas Shrugged), or just outright despises them because they are such a drain on the ‘productive’ people. Nor do I descend into anarchist law-of-the-jungle fantasy and imagine that that is the only true measure of freedom and liberty.

This is a matter of practical administration.

I do not understand how my post could be construed for the later or are you trying to make some sort of BS ‘slippery slope’ argument?

Exactly how do you reason that ISDs are useless? Further, how exactly is the State taxing State residents taxation without representation? Oh sure there can be property tax on non-residents but that is no different than the current state of affairs…except it would occur even less often [by definition] since a Texas resident voting at the State level may not live within the ISD that they hold a particular piece of property in.

ISDs are already overseen by the State. There are a number of stipulations and requirements placed on them, and the State has the power to step in and dissolve an ISD.

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My point is that many ISDs in Texas use lots of funding for sports, specifically football, and then complain that no money for "essentials" remains. They have coaches and coaches assistants and coaches aides, yet cannot seem to afford enough "quality" teachers. If the Podunk ISD wants money from the Austin ISD's tax base then let the Austin ISD help run the show too. That is my point about taxation without representation. Some areas, like San Antonio, go nuts and create 10 ISDs, while Houston has one for most of the city.

Schools in San Antonio, Texas, Map of school districts - List of Elementary, Middle, and High Schools: Grades, Scores, Classes, Enrollment, Ratings, Teachers, Students

Independent School District(ISD) Map - Diane Moser Properties, Inc. - Houston School Information

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Tucker Case said:

Isn't that what effectively happens when we see cuts in worker wages and spending and increases personal and company investment? They are doing it to keep that money for themselves and prevent others from receiving it. It removes the money from the economy, at least temporarily.

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Of course thats not money hoarding, that's routine, sound, every day business sense for most businesses. When the economy slows down, do you think most people would be wise to:
1. Increase their spending
2. Maintain current spending
3. Cut back on spending

I think any sensible person goes ahead and cuts back just in case, lets things settle down, before cautiously resuming spending at prior levels (or not!). Same goes for most businesses. That's not the psychological behavior of "money hoarding", that's conservative business practice, that most everyone engages in. And you do realize that for most businesses, payroll + benefits is by far the largest expense. Personally I'm even worse than that. I cut down to living well below means *at all times, good or bad*, that way I don't have to constantly re-adjust. Would you prefer business takes that approach instead? (in general, things like R&D for example may need to be maintained for technology roadmap reasons that are not cyclical...meaning you have one less place to make cuts to!).

What do you think happens when jobs are more scarce Tucker, that market labor rates should just ignore supply/demand and remain fixed? That sounds like union-insanity. Most of our economic woes would be fixed if a lot of currently illegal jobs and practices were legalized. Not saying we should, but let's not blame market forces for anything other than the absurd increase in quality of life AND Security we've enjoyed over the past 100+ years.

And another thing, if you're going to make big cutbacks in a business, you can't just do them every week or every month, you want to plan for some months ahead, and cut enough at once to ensure you don't have to make cuts again too soon, for morale, appearances, logistics/cost, etc.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

disneydude said:

More deflect and shuffle. Why do expect anymore more from you?

By the way.....if you have been following the news...it looks as if your "Doomsday" predictions about California are also wrong. SHOCK....

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And what good news are you looking at from California? Revenue? Unemployement? The Budget?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

disneydude said:

More deflect and shuffle. Why do expect anymore more from you?

By the way.....if you have been following the news...it looks as if your "Doomsday" predictions about California are also wrong. SHOCK....

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Really? You buy Governor Moonbeam's rhetoric? How many businesses and individuals have fled California in the last year? Your state is an economic disaster whereas TX has a 12 billion dollar excess in tax revenue that the Governor wants to give back to the people. Imagine that, overpaying in taxes and getting a refund? Hmmm, let me know when that happens in California?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Jim Carney said this today about the economic news:


"White House press secretary Jay Carney laid the blame for a surprise economic contraction squarely at the feet of congressional Republicans Wednesday, saying economic threats during the "fiscal cliff" negotiations had prevented important defense spending.

"Our economy is facing a major headwinds, and that's Republicans in Congress," Carney said."

Read more: White House: GOP responsible for contracting economy - The Hill
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

I have to admit I am surprised the public has been tollerant with this type of excuse for all this time, but blaming others for the failure of the Obama Administration is not going to create the bi-partisan environment the people are demanding.

When will the President and Progressives in Congress EVER take responsibility for their own failures to get things done?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Mach said:

Of course thats not money hoarding, that's routine, sound, every day business sense for most businesses. When the economy slows down, do you think most people would be wise to:
1. Increase their spending
2. Maintain current spending
3. Cut back on spending

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First: People shouldn't base it solely on the economy. That would be stupid. They should base it on the specifics of their situation. I have presented specifics which are not generalizable.

Second, part of the problem is that you are simply creating a strawman which you can happily do battle with when you try to make limit my position to the existing state of the economy and spending. I didn't say anything about existing state of the economy nor have I discussed spending in general.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

ttwtt78640 said:

My point is that many ISDs in Texas use lots of funding for sports, specifically football, and then complain that no money for "essentials" remains. They have coaches and coaches assistannts and aides, yet cannot seem to afford enough "quality" teachers. If the Podunk ISD wants money from the Austin ISD's tax base then let the Austin ISD help run the show too. That is my point about taxation without representation. Some areas, like San Antonio, go nuts and create 10 ISDs, while Houston has one for most of the city.

Schools in San Antonio, Texas, Map of school districts - List of Elementary, Middle, and High Schools: Grades, Scores, Classes, Enrollment, Ratings, Teachers, Students

Independent School District(ISD) Map - Diane Moser Properties, Inc. - Houston School Information

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ISD organization reform is indeed something that should come along for the ride. It is one of those reforms I left unnamed that become easier once the funding goes through the State. No need for tax base pissing matches and class battles over funding.

As for Podunk’s dubious budget allocations; Funding set at per student and some semblance of requirements based on performance metrics for each of the schools under their purview. If they live up to that and still figure out how to also fund hookers and blow parties for their assistant coach aides? *shrug* I guess it would call for an investigation of their operation … to figure out how they are being such darn cost efficient educators.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Also, can people please, for the love of god and all that is ****ing holy, stop making up bull**** and pretending it is my argument. It's ****ing retarded and it makes everyone dumber. I have not made any claims in any direction about what should happen about the money hoarding. Only that it, in and of itself, has effects on the economy. It does. It's just plain ****ing stupid to pretend taking money out of circulation does not have detrimental effects. It's just like how cutting spending will have short term negative impacts. It happens.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Dwight said:

ISD organization reform is indeed something that should come along for the ride. It is one of those things It is one of those reforms I left unmentioned that become easier once the funding goes through the State. No need for tax base pissing matches and class battles over funding.

As for Podunk’s dubious funding allocations; Funding set at per student and some semblance of requirements based on performance metrics for each of the schools under their purview. If they live up to that and still figure out how to also fund hookers and blow parties for their assistant coach aides? *shrug* I guess it would call for an investigation of their operation … to figure out how they are being such darn cost efficient educators.

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You make NO sense. Funding based on a per student basis would make those in low cost areas into super schools and those in high cost areas suck. Imagine what the same per student/per teacher funding for Brownsville and Dallas would do for "fairness". Should teacher pay be "evened out" as well?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Bronson said:

I don't support the GOP Establishment

Every time Republicans have even put spending cuts on the table however what's happened?

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The Senate has ignored them, so the Republicans passed a spending increase instead.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Tucker Case said:

Also, can people please, for the love of god and all that is ****ing holy, stop making up bull**** and pretending it is my argument. It's ****ing retarded and it makes everyone dumber. I have not made any claims in any direction about what should happen about the money hoarding. Only that it, in and of itself, has effects on the economy. It does. It's just plain ****ing stupid to pretend taking money out of circulation does not have detrimental effects. It's just like how cutting spending will have short term negative impacts. It happens.

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You owe the curse jar like 17 dollars after that little tirade.

I think its your inclination to mitigate the shrinking economy by focusing on " dem' eebil rich folk" thats gotten you all of this attention.

I mean the real money hoarding is happening at the banks as they store up massive, record reserves and then get paid interest on those reserves by the Fed.

That started in 2008 BTW. Its counter intuitive to a liberals "eeebil rich" narrative because its Obamas Fed Chairman who's doing it.

If they're getting paid on their reserves why lend money ?

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

ocean515 said:

Jim Carney said this today about the economic news:


"White House press secretary Jay Carney laid the blame for a surprise economic contraction squarely at the feet of congressional Republicans Wednesday, saying economic threats during the "fiscal cliff" negotiations had prevented important defense spending.

"Our economy is facing a major headwinds, and that's Republicans in Congress," Carney said."

Read more: White House: GOP responsible for contracting economy - The Hill
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

I have to admit I am surprised the public has been tollerant with this type of excuse for all this time, but blaming others for the failure of the Obama Administration is not going to create the bi-partisan environment the people are demanding.

When will the President and Progressives in Congress EVER take responsibility for their own failures to get things done?

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I like how defense spending is important all of a sudden.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Fenton said:

I think its your inclination to mitigate the shrinking economy by focusing on " dem' eebil rich folk" thats gotten you all of this attention.

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Where, or WHERE, did I do any such thing? Please show me where I actually do this thing I never did because I am quite certain I never did it.

Re: Economy shrinks for first time in 3 1/2 years

Got news for you folks. Bush is no longer in office. The Republicans have thin control of one congressional house and Obama has shown that he is willing to use executive orders to do what he likes. Ideas from House Republicans never see the Senate floor because of Harry Reid. Make no mistake, this is OBAMA'S economy, and it is not an accident. There is no way to F*** things up this badly by accident when there are as many people on your side who may have ideas as well. The really disturbing thing is that even in the face of economic collapse (don't kid yourself folks, that is where we are headed) Obama fans are STILL defending this prick. There are people here on this forum who defended their smaller paychecks by claiming the government taking more out of your check is not a tax increase. They still parrot that business cooperation is not happening because business owners are mad about the election.

Well let me clue you in people. Business people want one thing: profits. There is no hiring because there is no demand. Private sector businesses do not exist for the sole purpose of providing jobs. Government might, and even with as much as they have done toward this end we are still going backward. Here's another one: if your employer is still paying the same amount to employ you and your check is smaller, you have had a tax increase. And this was after Obama PROMISED nobody who made under $200K a year would see an increase. I can't wrap my head around the blind following this guy has. He has repeatedly lied to all of us, and yet about half the people out there still believe him. Are you people stupid or just that impressionable? I used to argue that Obama was not the worst President we ever had, but at this point he is running Carter down.