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Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

Thorgasm said:
If a piece of surgical equipment is sterilized, does that last forever?
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Yes, of course. It is then impossible to ever contaminate it again.

Are there no English remedial schools anymore?
 
Grant said:
Yes, of course. It is then impossible to ever contaminate it again.

Are there no English remedial schools anymore?
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I'm glad you understand that sterilization is not a permanent condition. You would think that people in the medical profession would understand that. :lol:
 
Tucker Case said:
The actual definition of the word disagrees with the colloquial usage by health professionals.

Here's the real newsflash for everyone who thinks that the colloquial use of the word by health professionals is the end all and be all of the discussion: The word was not created by them. It was adopted by them. It does not matter if they like to use it solely to describe permanent sterilization. The word is still very applicable to temporary sterilization techniques, techniques such as birth control methods which work by making a person incapable of reproduction.

There are basically three types of birth control classes:

1. Methods which prevent the intermingling of gametes (examples: condoms, Diaphram)
2. Methods which prevent the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus (Example: IUD)
3. Methods which render the person incapable of reproducing (Examples: hormone treatments like "the pill", vasectomies, Tubal Ligation)

The third type are the one's which are "sterilization techniques". Health professionals have decided to only call the permanent techniques of this type "sterilization", but that does not negate the fact that they are ALL sterilization techniques.
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The dictionary describes sterilization as a permanent condition, such as by removing reproductive organs.

Depo-Provera lasts about 3 months. After that they are back in action.

Sterilize | Define Sterilize at Dictionary.com
 
Tucker Case said:
I suppose since you have demonstrated the astounding capacity to put the word stupid in bold (your mother must be so proud) you should be able to present something, oh, I don't know, not retarded that can disprove the dictionary definition of the word. I mean, the guy you have allied with has decided that tubal ligation isn't sterilization because... well... because... that was pretty much his astoundingly intelligent argument when you get right down to it. I'm sure you have something better, though. Like, perhaps, "because I said so", or "because it's like totally not what the dictionary says it is man because like, well, you're stupid".

Please, amaze us with your brilliance.
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Don't get so upset Tucker. I did not say you were stupid, just this internet argument of yours. Where in the year 2013, can you find THIS argument being put forth? Only on the internet! Certainly not in the halls of academia or in medical schools. Or even veterinary schools either! For obvious reasons too. I guess to pass the time some internet posters have nothing better to do than try to argue that "sterilization" is the same thing as "contraception" in a thread about supposed forced use of contraceptives, that was supposed to equate forced sterilization. Which is for obvious political reasons! Of course one is temporary and the other is permanent. Which has always been the big difference between the two and why most of the REAL WORLD does not consider people on birth control "sterilized" but practicing the use of a "contraceptive". I "allied" myself with someone here at DP on this issue? Let me guess, you think the meaning or "agreement" is now also the same thing as "allied"? And so it goes. On the internet.:doh
 
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Tucker Case said:
I suppose since you have demonstrated the astounding capacity to put the word stupid in bold (your mother must be so proud) you should be able to present something, oh, I don't know, not retarded that can disprove the dictionary definition of the word. I mean, the guy you have allied with has decided that tubal ligation isn't sterilization because... well... because... that was pretty much his astoundingly intelligent argument when you get right down to it. I'm sure you have something better, though. Like, perhaps, "because I said so", or "because it's like totally not what the dictionary says it is man because like, well, you're stupid".

Please, amaze us with your brilliance.
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Oh and just to be honest as hell, my mother (God rest her soul) was a lifelong educator with an eye for language and grammar. Which is why she is probably rolling in her grave and no more "proud" of my routine mangling of language and grammar than yours. We would both be scolded. Of course dear Mom had a hysterectomy for medical reasons in her late 40's that left her actually "sterilized" per the meaning of the word through the annals of time and history. Rather than according to your internet argument.;)
 
Gie said:
Oh and just to be honest as hell, my mother (God rest her soul) was a lifelong educator with an eye for language and grammar. Which is why she is probably rolling in her grave and no more "proud" of my routine mangling of language and grammar than yours. We would both be scolded. Of course dear Mom had a hysterectomy for medical reasons in her late 40's that left her actually "sterilized" per the meaning of the word through the annals of time and history. Rather than according to your internet argument.;)
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Bully for yo' mama. I suppose that in her educating years she never taught you that definitions come from dictionaries?

Sterilize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

No mention of permanence.
 
Tucker Case said:
The actual definition of the word disagrees with the colloquial usage by health professionals.

Here's the real newsflash for everyone who thinks that the colloquial use of the word by health professionals is the end all and be all of the discussion: The word was not created by them. It was adopted by them. It does not matter if they like to use it solely to describe permanent sterilization. The word is still very applicable to temporary sterilization techniques, techniques such as birth control methods which work by making a person incapable of reproduction.

There are basically three types of birth control classes:

1. Methods which prevent the intermingling of gametes (examples: condoms, Diaphram)
2. Methods which prevent the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus (Example: IUD)
3. Methods which render the person incapable of reproducing (Examples: hormone treatments like "the pill", vasectomies, Tubal Ligation)

The third type are the one's which are "sterilization techniques". Health professionals have decided to only call the permanent techniques of this type "sterilization", but that does not negate the fact that they are ALL sterilization techniques.
Click to expand...

Really, Tuck. I put on a condom and that makes me sterile?
 
Tucker Case said:
Bully for yo' mama. I suppose that in her educating years she never taught you that definitions come from dictionaries?

Sterilize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

No mention of permanence.
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One can only hope you have a less occluded concept of "contraception" for the sake of an internet argument, than you do "sterilization". Alas, for the sake of an internet argument, that is doubtful. Onward brave internet warrior! Surely the mark of true internet valor, the Boozelnutbruarerawba crown waits you in Valhalla! Where presumably(hopefully)actual sterilization is a practice!:2razz:
 
Tucker Case said:
Not all of them:

Sterilize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
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The article you link seems to confirm what I said.

Being in the medical profession I have an image of "sterilization" being to render something free of life, as in to kill it off. When you sterilize an instrument there is nothing left that can grow. It's all dead. It's not a temporary sort of thing.

If you say the Israelis were "sterilizing" those women you are miss-communicating. It improperly, in my view, uses a word that has a particular connotation that falsely connects what the Israelis are doing with the bad deeds of others in the past, such as the forced sterilization of retarded people and the insane back in the 1940s. That is clearly not what is happening since the worst a dose of Depo-Provera can do is delay conception by a few months.
 
This is nothing new really:

"I recently (Oct. 2006) exchanged emails with a friend in Jerusalem. He is adamant. Ethiopian Jews are not Jewish. To bolster his point, he cites DNA evidence, evidence that, at most, can indicate that Ethiopian Jews not descended from the southern tribes of Israel, primarily Judah and Levi. He also cites Hebrew University's Steven Kaplan, who believes Ethiopian Jews adopted Judaism in the early Middle Ages as part of a wave of Judaization sweeping Ethiopia. (Kaplan himself fully supports EJ aliya and absorption, and is very clear on those points.) There is also evidence of this noted by another academic who specializes in Ethiopian song.

"The point of this post is not to refute this belief, but I will make one simple point regarding it: Nothing these academics believe and nothing in that DNA evidence precludes conversion to Judaism. In other words, at best this evidence proves not that Ethiopian Jews are goyyim, but that Ethiopian Jews may be converts. And, when you factor in what academics of equal stature say in opposition, or what many others say – based on solid evidence – about the lineage of Ashkenazi Jews, for example, or the 'unity' of the Tribes of Israel, one quickly realizes that all of this evidence is a two-edged sword; what cuts the black Jews you so dislike cuts you, deeply, as well....

"I would think that if a people had suffered so much and risked so much for Judaism and Israel, we would, at the very least, be civil toward them. We certainly would want to help them out of danger and distress, and do whatever is necessary to help them succeed. Yet, in the Ashkenazi Orthodox world (especially in the American part of it) the opposite is often the case. Here is a quote from an email sent to me by a leading member of the RCA: "[A leading Orthodox professor with close ties to Chabad] once said that the poskim who affirmed the certain Jewishness of the Ethiopian Jews were those who did not read a European language." This is a racist slap at the dozens of Sefardic poskim who hold, just like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, that Ethiopian Jews are 100% Jewish. Needless to say, this Orthodox professor is not known as a friend to Ethiopian Jews in any way, not even following Rabbi Feinstein's minimalist position quoted above – a position, by the way, endorsed by Rabbi J.B. Soleveitchik and dozens of others, as well.

"I think this all points to a larger malaise in Orthodoxy, a malaise that has turned morality into "what can we get away with" rather than "what is the ideal we should strive for."


Ethiopian Jews And Orthodox Jewish Racism - FailedMessiah.com
 
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shanners said:
This is nothing new really:

"I recently (Oct. 2006) exchanged emails with a friend in Jerusalem. He is adamant. Ethiopian Jews are not Jewish. To bolster his point, he cites DNA evidence, evidence that, at most, can indicate that Ethiopian Jews not descended from the southern tribes of Israel, primarily Judah and Levi. He also cites Hebrew University's Steven Kaplan, who believes Ethiopian Jews adopted Judaism in the early Middle Ages as part of a wave of Judaization sweeping Ethiopia. (Kaplan himself fully supports EJ aliya and absorption, and is very clear on those points.) There is also evidence of this noted by another academic who specializes in Ethiopian song.

"The point of this post is not to refute this belief, but I will make one simple point regarding it: Nothing these academics believe and nothing in that DNA evidence precludes conversion to Judaism. In other words, at best this evidence proves not that Ethiopian Jews are goyyim, but that Ethiopian Jews may be converts. And, when you factor in what academics of equal stature say in opposition, or what many others say – based on solid evidence – about the lineage of Ashkenazi Jews, for example, or the 'unity' of the Tribes of Israel, one quickly realizes that all of this evidence is a two-edged sword; what cuts the black Jews you so dislike cuts you, deeply, as well....

"I would think that if a people had suffered so much and risked so much for Judaism and Israel, we would, at the very least, be civil toward them. We certainly would want to help them out of danger and distress, and do whatever is necessary to help them succeed. Yet, in the Ashkenazi Orthodox world (especially in the American part of it) the opposite is often the case. Here is a quote from an email sent to me by a leading member of the RCA: "[A leading Orthodox professor with close ties to Chabad] once said that the poskim who affirmed the certain Jewishness of the Ethiopian Jews were those who did not read a European language." This is a racist slap at the dozens of Sefardic poskim who hold, just like Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, that Ethiopian Jews are 100% Jewish. Needless to say, this Orthodox professor is not known as a friend to Ethiopian Jews in any way, not even following Rabbi Feinstein's minimalist position quoted above – a position, by the way, endorsed by Rabbi J.B. Soleveitchik and dozens of others, as well.

"I think this all points to a larger malaise in Orthodoxy, a malaise that has turned morality into "what can we get away with" rather than "what is the ideal we should strive for."


Ethiopian Jews And Orthodox Jewish Racism - FailedMessiah.com
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It seems to me that Israel needs all the Jews it can get.
 
LowDown said:
That is clearly not what is happening since the worst a dose of Depo-Provera can do is delay conception by a few months.
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A few months each time it is administered. If it is administered regularly every few months for the reproductive life of the unwitting patient, the effect is no different than if they had been more permanently sterilized once.
 
Viktyr Gehrig said:
A few months each time it is administered. If it is administered regularly every few months for the reproductive life of the unwitting patient, the effect is no different than if they had been more permanently sterilized once.
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This is true. If they were actually being treated this way in an ongoing fashion without knowledge of what was going on then I can see no excuse. Is it true that they were not being told that this was birth control? That's what activists are claiming.

Amid controversy, Israel issues new birth-control guidelines - Los Angeles Times
 
X Factor said:
Really, Tuck. I put on a condom and that makes me sterile?
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Of course not. You are not rendered incapable of reproducing by a condom, your sperm is simply blocked from meeting the egg. Your biological mechanisms are unchanged.

Read post #549 if you are still having difficulties with determining the operational mechanisms of different birth control methods.
 
Gie said:
One can only hope you have a less occluded concept of "contraception" for the sake of an internet argument, than you do "sterilization". Alas, for the sake of an internet argument, that is doubtful. Onward brave internet warrior! Surely the mark of true internet valor, the Boozelnutbruarerawba crown waits you in Valhalla! Where presumably(hopefully)actual sterilization is a practice!:2razz:
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So your mother did not teach you how to use a dictionary. Sort of like the old saying about how the shoemaker's son is always in need of shoes, isn't it?
 
Moderator's Warning:
The personal attacks will stop now. It's okay if you want to argue about what the dictionary says instead of what Israel may or may not be doing... but you're going to do it like civilized adults.
 
Tucker Case said:
No it doesn't. There was no requirement of permanence in the Websters definition. That would directly contradict what you have said.
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Ok, so this is quoted from the definition you linked:

: to make sterile: as

b (1) : to deprive of the power of reproducing <surgically sterilize cats and dogs> (2) : to make incapable of germination
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Sounds awfully permanent, especially the example about surgery.
 
Tucker Case said:
And thus my point about sterilization.
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Well, no. No matter how long you continue medical birth control you have not sterilized the patients because they are still capable of being fertile.
 
Tucker Case said:
So your mother did not teach you how to use a dictionary. Sort of like the old saying about how the shoemaker's son is always in need of shoes, isn't it?
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Does this apply to other professsions? Abortionists, prison guards, proctologists, horse inseminators, etc?
 
LowDown said:
Well, no. No matter how long you continue medical birth control you have not sterilized the patients because they are still capable of being fertile.
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If a person is continually injected with hormones which make them infertile, how would they be capable of reproducing?
 
Tucker Case said:
If a person is continually injected with hormones which make them infertile, how would they be capable of reproducing?
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You stop giving them the hormones.
 
LowDown said:
You stop giving them the hormones.
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I see. So what you are saying is that, by injecting them with this hormone, you are depriving them of the power to reproduce. And in order to grant them the power to reproduce again, you must STOP injecting them with said hormone.

Now where oh where have I seen something along the lines of "deprive someone the power to reproduce" recently? I'm sure I saw it somewhere. Do you know where I might have seen that?
 
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