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Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

Dr. Chuckles said:
Right, the question isn't meant to disparage or create negative associations

2) my position has been one of skepticism from the beginning. Not sure how you get a position of affirming something from someone going "i don't know"
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You said it's possible that Israel, or a group therein, is committing genocide. You allow for that possibility based on a sensationalist TV show. Right?
 
ecofarm said:
You said it's possible that Israel, or a group therein, is committing genocide. You allow for that possibility based on a sensationalist TV show. Right?
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What kind of state commits supposed genocide against people that they spent millions of dollars and countless hours of planning and negotiating to bring in, in the first place?

Something just doesn't sound logical.
 
Spring99 said:
What kind of state commits supposed genocide against people that they spent millions of dollars and countless hours of planning and negotiating to bring in, in the first place?

Something just doesn't sound logical.
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One would merely need to presume that the immigration is a PR show and that Israel (or a group therein) is slowly killing them off.

Diabolical!
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
No, because your're obviously fishing for accusations of antisemitism, as you do in every thread on this subject.
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No I don't. If you're reading that into my posts, you're seeing seeing something that's not there.
 
ecofarm said:
You said it's possible that Israel, or a group therein, is committing genocide.
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Yes, and I said it was possible that it was a complete fabrication. Because, as I keep saying, there are many possibilities here and a clear lack of evidence. Not sure what part of that you don't get
 
X Factor said:
No I don't. If you're reading that into my posts, you're seeing seeing something that's not there.
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of course ... How could I ever come to any other conclusion
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
I suggest reading up on the history of the subject. It's a very contentious issue with a complex history, that hardly amounts to an open arm welcome from all of Israeli society
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False claims against the Government are false claims against the Government, regardless if some of the citizens want something else.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, and I said it was possible that it was a complete fabrication. Because, as I keep saying, there are many possibilities here and a clear lack of evidence. Not sure what part of that you don't get
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I just want to establish that you are maintaining your position that this TV show might prove that Israel is committing genocide, even after I've (painstakingly) explained everything from macro flaws to fine sociological omissions of arriving at such a position.
 
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X Factor said:
So now it's not so "sad" to be skeptical?
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I didn't say it was sad to be skeptical. Here's what I said:

Thorgasm said:
It's pretty sad how people refuse to believe anything negative about the Israeli government. As if their government was any more honest than any other government.
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"Refusing to believe" is beyond "skeptical". These are the people that come up with a conclusion and then seek evidence to support that conclusion. Good grief, look at how many posts have been dedicated to what "sterilization" means as if it mattered to what the accusations claim. Tucker did a nice job in exposing their fail. They seemed all too ready to assist him in that endeavor.
 
Spring99 said:
What kind of state commits supposed genocide against people that they spent millions of dollars and countless hours of planning and negotiating to bring in, in the first place?

Something just doesn't sound logical.
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the issue is much more complex than you are portraying it. I suggest looking into the "Falash Mura". Also, the tension between the two communities have already been highlighted earlier in the thread. So I am unsure why anyone would ignore the issues contentious nature
 
ecofarm said:
I just want to establish that you are maintaining your position that this TV show might prove that Israel is committing genocide, even after I've (painstakingly) explained everything from macro flaws to fine sociological omissions of arriving at such a position.
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lol, again, you speculating on what issues *might* exist with the data isn't the same as actually highlighting issues with the data. Not sure how many times I can point that out

you don't like that? What can I say, life can be a real bitch sometimes
 
40 women out of maybe 60,000...is not an example of genocide or even genocidal intentions.
 
Excon said:
False claims against the Government are false claims against the Government, regardless if some of the citizens want something else.
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you have evidence they were false? Surprising that you haven't felt the need to actually document that in the thread where we are actively discussing the subject. Also, I was speaking to your general ignorance on the subject and characterizing the entire thing as an open arm festival of love, which the above quip doesn't actually address
 
Thorgasm said:
Good grief, look at how many posts have been dedicated to what "sterilization" means as if it mattered to what the accusations claim.
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Good grief is right!
Contraception is different from sterilization. Far, far different.
And you don't think it matters?
You don't think it matters to get the story straight instead of trying to make the base allegations appear more nefarious?

"Good grief" is right!
 
Spring99 said:
40 women out of maybe 60,000...is not an example of genocide or even genocidal intentions.
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Interviewing 40 women does not mean such was limited to 40 women.


This is something that was just pointed out to you ...
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
you have evidence they were false? Surprising that you haven't felt the need to actually document that in the thread where we are actively discussing the subject. Also, I was speaking to your general ignorance on the subject and characterizing the entire thing as an open arm festival of love, which the above quip doesn't actually address
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In this thread we are discussing one specific incident.
You interjected with the following which has nothing to do with this specific incident.

Dr. Chuckles said:
I suggest reading up on the history of the subject. It's a very contentious issue with a complex history, that hardly amounts to an open arm welcome from all of Israeli society
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My answer is directed toward that remark and not this specific incident.
Most people would not have difficulty understanding that.
Regardless of the truism I responded with.

Excon said:
False claims against the Government are false claims against the Government, regardless if some of the citizens want something else.
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Dr. Chuckles said:
lol, again, you speculating on what issues *might* exist with the data isn't the same as actually highlighting issues with the data. Not sure how many times I can point that out
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Actually, it is. I've examined the "method" and the "results" and I've provided an educated criticism of them. Reading the entire "study" conducted by the TV show is not necessary to dismiss genocide as a conclusion, based upon the results obtained and even including the uncited pop data.

you don't like that? What can I say, life can be a real bitch sometimes
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Don't get all tough guy on me. I was a grunt and spent 2 years in rural Africa without electricity or running water (and dirt floors). I know how tough life can be.

And I know outrageous speculation based on sensationalist TV when I see it.
 
Excon said:
In this thread we are discussing one specific incident.
You interjected with the following which has nothing to do with this specific incident.
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Yes, we are speaking about a specific incident, and to defend your position on that specific incident you cited the fact that the Israelis freely accepted these people. I pointed out that this was a gross over simplification of the events surrounding their immigration into Israel. So am unsure how responding to something YOU brought up, to defend your position in the discussion, has no place in the discussion
 
Anyone seen this story at CNN, BBC, etc? I mean the TV show accusations, not the announcement by Israel that such procedures must be focused upon and carefully attended.
 
Excon said:
Good grief is right!
Contraception is different from sterilization. Far, far different.
And you don't think it matters?
You don't think it matters to get the story straight instead of trying to make the base allegations appear more nefarious?

"Good grief" is right!
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I'm typing this real slow so pay attention.

There are accusations that the Israeli Government is misrepresenting the purpose and the substance which they are injecting into allegedly targeted Ethiopian Jews. One of the side effects was that ovulation was inhibited in these women without their knowledge.

I don't care about your semantic argument as it isn't central to what the real issue is here.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
of course ... How could I ever come to any other conclusion
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I don't think there's any way for me to answer that safely. Lol.

Thorgasm said:
I didn't say it was sad to be skeptical. Here's what I said:



"Refusing to believe" is beyond "skeptical". These are the people that come up with a conclusion and then seek evidence to support that conclusion.Good grief, look at how many posts have been dedicated to what "sterilization" means as if it mattered to what the accusations claim. Tucker did a nice job in exposing their fail. They seemed all too ready to assist him in that endeavor.
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IMO that (the bolded part) better describes those who want to believe the worst about Israel.
 
ecofarm said:
Actually, it is. I've examined the "method" and the "results" and I've provided an educated criticism of them. Reading the entire "study" conducted by the TV show is not necessary to dismiss genocide as a conclusion, based upon the results obtained and even including the uncited pop data.
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But you would be creating a false dichotomy again, because the possibilities are not simply nothing happened and genocide. Also you haven't even reviewed the program that you are attempting to critique. You are simply dismissing it out of hand. hardly an intellectual position that stands on it's own merits
 
Thorgasm said:
I'm typing this real slow so pay attention.

There are accusations that the Israeli Government is misrepresenting the purpose and the substance which they are injecting into allegedly targeted Ethiopian Jews. One of the side effects was that ovulation was inhibited in these women without their knowledge.

I don't care about your semantic argument as it isn't central to what the real issue is here.
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Now you pay close attention, as I am going to type and post this at normal speed, and I do not want you to miss what you already did.

Your position was already addressed.

Good grief is right!
Contraception is different from sterilization. Far, far different.
And you don't think it matters?
You don't think it matters to get the story straight instead of trying to make the base allegations appear more nefarious?

"Good grief" is right!​

You should try to keep the information correct, regardless of the side you take in an issue.


Btw, where was it alleged that they were misrepresenting the substance?
You mean the comment about taking actual immunizations? That one?
If it was that one you should have read slower, as it was about immunizations.
Or are you talking about something else?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Yes, we are speaking about a specific incident, and to defend your position on that specific incident you cited the fact that the Israelis freely accepted these people. I pointed out that this was a gross over simplification of the events surrounding their immigration into Israel. So am unsure how responding to something YOU brought up, to defend your position in the discussion, has no place in the discussion
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iLOL
Over simplification?
Well let me over simplify it for you (cough) again then.

They were accepted into Israel by the Government.
Were they not?
Why yes they were.

The history surrounding their acceptance pretty much has no bearing on the fact that they were actually accepted.
Why?
Because it doesn't change the fact that they were accepted. Nor could it change that fact.
That fact stands on it's own.

Hence, any comment about a "complex history" is irrelevant to my comment of them being accepted and the unlikelihood that a government would accept them only to purposely sterilize them?
To believe such is beyond absurdity.

And you trying to tie my comment addressing yours of a "complex history" with the present topic of discussion, is ridiculous, as you yourself were addressing the history of that subject and not this topic.
 
Excon said:
If it was that one you should have read slower, as it was about immunizations.
Or are you talking about something else?
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Actually, if I recall correctly (feel free to quote the relevant material if I am wrong), someone (ecofarm I believe) correctly pointed out immunizations would be part of any relocation program. That doesn't mean the individuals in question weren't also given depo under the guise of an immunization
 
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