• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]

No, but that is different than simply denying something as a possibility, because it involves Israel

That's tantamount to an ad hom. It's mere dismissal of a member's argument, it's not debate and such a challenge has absolutely no where to go as far as this thread is concerned.
 
The first few pages are pretty much comments by folks who immediately accepted the story as truth, but, of course, that's no problem. Lol.

HAHAHA~!!! So the vague accusations of antisemitism now swing my way. Why not just go play with Spanky and save us the pointless dribble
 
I'm sorry, but your theorizing on possible scenarios isn't the same as reviewing the actual data and pointing to flaws in it. And it's rather funny that you seem intent in demanding me to ignore this difference

It will be funnier when I'm vindicated. This "story" (well, it is a story, for a TV show, it's not a peer reviewed article) will be criticised just as I have. It could take months, but I'm convinced it's sensationalism. Show me a supporting study (an actual study) or population data with citations. Because the TV study doesn't have those.
 
It will be funnier when I'm vindicated. This "story" (well, it is a story, for a TV show, it's not a peer reviewed article) will be criticised just as I have. It could take months, but I'm convinced it's sensationalism. Show me a supporting study (an actual study) or population data with citations. Because the TV study doesn't have those.

I never said you were wrong, only that your arguments are not actually based on the data, but what you think the data is
 
HAHAHA~!!! So the vague accusations of antisemitism now swing my way. Why not just go play with Spanky and save us the pointless dribble

Why are you piling on spanky? I believe his "points" can be considered strawmen at this point in the discussion, as he demands that uncited numbers and unreviewed data be dismantled immediately. Well, there's nothing to dismantle. It's a TV show, with uncited numbers and a few quotes that it most certainly fished for, perhaps with the knowledge of gender population stuff I've highlighted (which would make it pretty evil).

Show me something cited or reviewed, otherwise you're asking me to debate with Glen Beck.
 
I never said you were wrong, only that your arguments are not actually based on the data, but what you think the data is

We know what the data is:

1. Talking to 35 people. Results: a couple inflamatory and context lacking quotes presented in a leading manner.
2. Some population numbers without citations. Results: population crash of genocidal proportions or something like that.


Ok, what do I do with it? I think I've done what's possible.
 
a number of people. Just go back and read the thread

Here's every post in the thread up to that point. Who was refusing to believe anything negative about Israel (since, presumably, that's what was so sad about this thread)?

Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent - Middle East - World - The Independent



Damn, just damn. I'm normally pretty outspoken in defense of the Israeli regime... but there's just no excuse for this.

WOW. Since these fine Israeli folks are our allies this clearly racist treatment will be forgiven. I will bet no US MSM picks this little tidbit up for publication.

Smooth Israel. Real smooth.

This is damned wrong.

This appears to be the problem from Israel's POV.


If that's the case then they should have another look at the Law of Return, but the response is certainly not to sterilize women.

"sterilize"?
More hyperbole?

Can't have a bunch of darkies running around Jerusalem calling themselves Jews.

Holy ****!
Will folks pay attention to that which came before?

Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”.​

AND




Before assuming that Israel was giving birth control en masse to Ethiopian Jews without their consent I would like to see the official report, not media ramblings.

Well, the number was 30 because that was the number of Ethiopians the journalist interviewed. The hit rate was 100%. Wonder what it would be if they interviewed all 100k?

Yes, I'm sure the official report will not be a white wash.

Yeah, and the media assertion that Israel sterilized 100,000 without their consent and them knowing based off of media sources is entirely accurate and should be accepted :roll:

People with a bias against Israel or a desire to believe that they are an evil nation will accept anything from any source that is critical of the nation without digging any deeper and trying to find facts without the spin associated with it.

Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”.​

And you do not understand the above?

Always check the source of the story, if this came Iranian media then I say take the information with a crate of salt

Depo-Prova is a temporary birth control method. As new, impoverished immigrants, it might not be the best time to have more children. It is not sterilization.

It was based on the investigative report of an Israeli Jew.

Just so I get this straight, and investigative report turned up the evidence, Israel denied it, when shown more proof they admitted it and THEN changed their policy.

I guess it never happened.

I would like to see more information before judging what happened. I will state that if the shots were administered without the knowledge and consent of those receiving them, those responsible should be removed from the health industry, barred from further medical practice, and subject to compensating those who received the shots and for any criminal prosecution to which they could be held accountable.

Since everyone seems more interested in tossing about various accusations:



Israel admits Ethiopian women were given birth control shots Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

It's temporary sterilization. (sterilization does not need to be permanent in order to be sterlization)

And if it was done without the consent of those who were temporarily sterlized, it doesn't matter what intellectual acrobatics one goes through to justify the action, it's simply wrong.

Ok, now have some background to the story, I have a question. Why would Israel do such a thing

tensions between the two communities is nothing new, and only have seemed to increase with israel's recent issues with illegal immagration from Africa

Ethiopian Jews' feeling that they have been wronged is not detached from reality, a reality that we must change," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday.



Olmert: Ethiopian Jews are right to feel discriminated against - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

not sure why people get so bent out of shape about this stuff on both sides of the isle. It doesn't amount to Israelis being Nazis, and it surely doesn't mean everyone who takes an interest in the subject wants to reopen the gas chambers. People are racist, the state is trying to deal with the issue, get over it people

Notice the word games the supporters of this heinous policy of the State of Israel employ.

Well, it WASN'T sterilization! (no, it was forced birth control, like it makes a difference).

It was TEMPORARY sterilization...oops, I mean birth control!

PROVE it was done without their consent! ("It's just an inoculation. If you want entry into Israel you HAVE to take this or you won't be admitted, we don't need a bunch of darkies running around the Temple. TAKE THE RED PILL MOFO OR YOU'RE GOING BACK TO YOUR MUD HUT!")

"Morning sickness vaccine" ~ pretty clever. :lol:

Oy vey!
Something may have happened.
It is the actual facts as to what happened as well as the interpretations of them.
You do understand that, right?



You seem not to understand that the statement points to their possibly being a misunderstanding.

Which this could be from the get.
A misunderstanding where those treated thought they had to take the injections.
And not something nefarious.

Show otherwise, if not, spare us the hyperbole and Jew hatred and wait for more information.

Yeah, as ****ed up as the story is, that line needs to be appreciated.

"Today, there are 81,000 Ethiopian Israelis who were born in Ethiopia, while 38,500 or 32% of the community are native born Israelis."

The "aliyah" of Beta Israel (notice they're not called Alpha Israel, from the get go they were designated second class Jews) operated in the '70's, '80's and into the '90's. In all that time from 1970 their reproduction results are 50%. One child for every couple from between 20-40 years.

Why did it take so long to uncover this tragedy?

Really?
You want to engage in some sort of semantics.
It wasn't sterilization as it does not make the person sterile.

The only misunderstanding is among Israel apologists.

Okay, it wasn't permanent sterilization.

How does that change the story?

seems the program made them "incapable of reproduction." on a temporary basis. And being that the definition of sterilization is "any procedure by which an individual is made incapable of reproduction" it seems like a good fit

sterilization - definition of sterilization in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Or would you prefer "the chemical prevention of reproduction" to just be difficult?

So while they were injected with these shots they had the ability to reproduce?

Considering who started the thread, I wouldn't worry about it. Then 2 responses from pretty solid conservatives saying it was wrong...

I'm just saying that at first that's exactly what I expected from the thread, but then I read it and saw that wasn't it.

Israel Admits ‘Shameful’ Birth Control Drug Injected in Unaware Ethiopian Jews

Israel Admits

The Israeli government has tacitly acknowledged injecting Ethiopian women immigrating to Israel with a long-acting contraceptive without their knowledge, telling them they couldn't come into the country if they didn't take the shot, which the women thought was a vaccination.

Many have called the practice appallingly racist.

The shots are being blamed for a 50 percent drop in the birth rate in Israel's Ethiopian community over the past decade.

There are about 120,000 Jews of Ethiopian origin living in Israel, about a third of them born in Israel. There have long been conspiracy theories circulating about forced sterilization. But after a documentary aired last month on Israel's Educational Network, Health Ministry Director General Ron Gamzu has banned Israel's health maintenance organizations from injecting Ethiopian women with the contraceptive Depo-Provera.

CRAP! WE GOT CAUGHT!

You have yet to show that it was actually forced.
You have yet to show that an actual policy existed to force such.
All you have shown is your propensity to engage in hyperbole for nefarious purposes.



Like I said, "for nefarious purposes".


We are speaking biology folks. This isn't hard.
They were not rendered sterile at all.

1 a process or act that renders a person unable to produce children. See also hysterectomy, tubal ligation, vasectomy.

They were and still are able to "produce" children.
They were not sterilized.

Because they're darkies?

Which is why I cited a medical dictionary ...




did the process leave them "unable to produce children"? Yes, on a temporary basis. Hence "temporary sterilization".

Not sure how this really speaks to the issue though

For many developing world women, reproductive control is a difficult thing. Men have control in households and taking a pill each day might not fly. As these women are aware of the impacts of having many children, they are desperate for a way to control their lives and the lives of their children. Under such circumstance, I can see two things possibly happening:

1. The woman take the shot because they know they do not need another child, at least not so close to another birth, and their husband will not go along with daily pills.
2. The women feign ignorance when asked during what would become a public investigation, to excuse their actions from their husbands.


Now, maybe Israel did sterilize immigrants out of racism and state purity, but the above explanation has at least as much chance of being the driving force.

It's pretty sad how people refuse to believe anything negative about the Israeli government. As if their government was any more honest than any other government.
 
Last edited:
Why are you piling on spanky? I believe his "points" can be considered strawmen at this point in the discussion, as he demands that uncited numbers and unreviewed data be dismantled immediately. Well, there's nothing to dismantle. It's a TV show, with uncited numbers and a few quotes that it most certainly fished for, perhaps with the knowledge of gender population stuff I've highlighted (which would make it pretty evil).

Show me something cited or reviewed, otherwise you're asking me to debate with Glen Beck.

I'm not asking you to debate with anyone, and my main point of contention has been the lack of information pointing in either direction. You seem to think that demands an assertion from ignorance in support of the Israelis, others think it proves a eugenics program. Ma, I like information and drawing my conclusions from that.

Information in a news paper or TV is clearly evidence. You can question the quality of that evidence, but don't act as if it has no value. Especially when you're seemingly unaware what the actual content was
 
HAHAHA~!!! So the vague accusations of antisemitism now swing my way. Why not just go play with Spanky and save us the pointless dribble

And, once again, I'm not accusing anyone of anti-Semitism.
 
More than 100,000 black Jews in Israel and only 40 of them accidentally got a birth control injection without fully understanding the ramifications.

Wow, I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!!!

Someone should form a committee to do an inquiry into a Truth Commission!!!

Such dastardly and despicable deeds cannot go delinquently unjustified!!!!!!
 
More than 100,000 black Jews in Israel and only 40 of them accidentally got a birth control injection without fully understanding the ramifications.

Wow, I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!!!

Someone should form a committee to do an inquiry into a Truth Commission!!!

Such dastardly and despicable deeds cannot go delinquently unjustified!!!!!!

as pointed out, that was the number interviewed, and it was never offered as an exhaustive count
 
Information in a news paper or TV is clearly evidence. Clearly you can question the quality of that evidence, but don't act as if it has no value. Especially when you're seemingly unaware what the actual content was

Has the TV show released the "study"? I don't think so. They generally don't. It's not reviewed, there's no real methods (beyond perhaps looking for opportunities to get inflamatory quotes based on the household and socioeconomic conditions of sources). I don't think it will be released.

The show has released the results. That's all we got to work with:

1. A couple inflamatory quotes.
2. Uncited pop data.

How many times do I have to repeat this before you understand that there is nothing more to the TV Show's "story".
 
Has the TV show released the "study"? I don't think so. They generally don't. It's not reviewed, there's no real methods (beyond perhaps looking for opportunities to get inflamatory quotes based on the household and socioeconomic conditions of sources). I don't think it will be released.[/quotes]

it's a tv show not a study. They interviewed people. People said things. This is evidence. Inconclusive, but still evidence



How many times do I have to repeat this before you understand that there is nothing more to the TV Show's "story".

I understand it's a tv show. That was never in dispute. What was in dispute was your ability to critique information that you didn't have access to
 
I understand it's a tv show. That was never in dispute. What was in dispute was your ability to critique information that you didn't have access to

I have access to the "method" and the results. Method is just "talked to 35 people and presented some uncited pop data". Based on results, we got nothing (a couple nasty quotes and invented pop data).

Evidence for charges of genocide? Maybe, if one is a Truther, a Birther, UFOer, CTer in general, a Beck fan or something like that.
 
Last edited:
of course ...

This is really funny. I'm repeatedly reminded that criticizing Israel doesn't equal anti-Semitism yet, apparently, if I'm critical of someone's crtiticism of Israel then I'm accusing them of anti-Semitism.

Can't make this **** up, lol.
 
"sterilize"?
More hyperbole?
Yes, that seems to be the case. I should have waited and learned more.

This is not what we have come to expect from the Israelis.
Yes that seems to be the case, what?

If you are agreeing that it was hyperbole on your part, you are spot on.

As Israel is the one to give these folks a home in the first place, I seriously doubt there is anything nefarious going on.
 
Yes that seems to be the case, what?

If you are agreeing that it was hyperbole on your part, you are spot on.

As Israel is the one to give these folks a home in the first place, I seriously doubt there is anything nefarious going on.

Ah, but don't you see???

The Israelis brought these people in only so that they could then slowly but surely get rid of them!!!!!

Or something to that effect.


Hmmm..they spend tens of millions of dollars to bring more than 100,000 people to their country, only to then decide to commit slow genocide against them. Sounds like a Milton Berle schtick.
 
This is really funny. I'm repeatedly reminded that criticizing Israel doesn't equal anti-Semitism yet, apparently, if I'm critical of someone's crtiticism of Israel then I'm accusing them of anti-Semitism.

Can't make this **** up, lol.

No, because your're obviously fishing for accusations of antisemitism, as you do in every thread on this subject.
 
Instead of taking shots at each other, how about we all get along and just admit that I'm right.
 
I have access to the "method" and the results. Method is just "talked to 35 people and presented some uncited pop data". Based on results, we got nothing (a couple nasty quotes and invented pop data).

Yes, you're discounting their claims based on possible alternative explanations in the demographic shift.

Possible =/= fact

Evidence for charges of genocide? Maybe, if one is a Truther, a Birther, UFOer, CTer in general, a Beck fan or something like that.

ahh, more nasty associations and attempts to poison the well.
 
ahh, more nasty associations and attempts to poison the well.

Asking if someone is a truther, or such, is a legit question. Are you a truther? If so, then I can undertand you believing that Israel might be committing genocide based on a sensationalist TV show story. That's topical to this discussion.
 
As Israel is the one to give these folks a home in the first place, I seriously doubt there is anything nefarious going on.

I suggest reading up on the history of the subject. It's a very contentious issue with a complex history, that hardly amounts to an open arm welcome from all of Israeli society
 
Asking if someone is a truther, or such, is a legit question. Are you a truther? If so, then I can undertand you believing that Israel might be committing genocide based on a sensationalist TV show story. That's topical to this discussion.


Right, the question isn't meant to disparage or create negative associations

2) my position has been one of skepticism from the beginning. Not sure how you get a position of affirming something from someone going "i don't know"
 
Back
Top Bottom