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Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent [W:283,569]


I see. So what you are saying is that, by injecting them with this hormone, you are depriving them of the power to reproduce. And in order to grant them the power to reproduce again, you must STOP injecting them with said hormone.

Now where oh where have I seen something along the lines of "deprive someone the power to reproduce" recently? I'm sure I saw it somewhere. Do you know where I might have seen that?

I say that "you stop giving them hormones" only as a manner of speaking. Actually, any means by which they no longer get the hormones will restore fertility.

Possibly you recall how Western peoples are no longer reproducing enough to keep populations from declining. China, with a 1 child only policy, has a fertility rate of 1.5. Americans, who can have as many children as they like, have a fertility rate only slightly higher. In Europe it's quite a bit lower than that. Go figure.

You know that 20 million Mexicans who are supposed to be here illegally? Well, we'd better make citizens of them fast before they get wind of the economy in Mexico. The birth rate in Mexico has plunged over the last 20 years, and they are barely above the replacement rate now. They can no longer send us the babies that we can't be bothered to have. In terms of net migration, they basically stopped coming here 3 years ago. Pretty soon our population will be too old, and it will play Hob with Social Security, Medicare, and all the rest.
 
True or false: the drug works as a contraceptive because it deprives them of the power of reproduction while it is in their system.
 
True or false: the drug works as a contraceptive because it deprives them of the power of reproduction while it is in their system.


That is true, but to say that sterilization occurs because of that process is clinically false.
 
That is true, but to say that sterilization occurs because of that process is clinically false.

If it is true, then it is sterilization as per the Webster's definition of that word. My question was worded quite specifically to test whether the definition applies verbatim.
 
Don't know about dictionary definitions...mainly because I haven't sought a definition on this topic, however....

Many years ago I had a vasectomy, which is completely reversible. While I'm unable to impregnate a woman (or damn well better be) I'm technically still able to reproduce.

So, by the book definition, am I sterile?
 
Maybe ethiopians were a threat to jewish supremacist ideology and hence, the needed to be stopped from breeding.
 
If it is true, then it is sterilization as per the Webster's definition of that word. My question was worded quite specifically to test whether the definition applies verbatim.

"There sterilization procedures for both men and women. These are permanent and for the most part irreversible (or intended to be).

snip

What is female sterilization?

Permanent female sterilization can be achieved through two procedures:

Tubal ligation: This is a surgical procedure performed in a hospital, usually with no over night stay. It involves cutting the fallopian tubes and then tying and cauterizing the cut ends, so the egg does not get out of the tube into the uterus to be fertilized.
Hysteroscopic sterilization (Essure procedure): A hysteroscope, a lighted telescopic instrument, is inserted into the uterus through the cervix. The hysteroscope is used to insert spring-like coils called micro-inserts in the opening of the fallopian tubes. During the following months, scar tissue will form around the inserts and essentially plug the tubes which will keep sperm from fertilizing an egg. A follow-up visit to the doctor is required to make sure that the tubes are completely blocked.

Back-up contraception must be used until blockage is confirmed. This is a minor surgical procedure and requires anesthesia."

Birth Control: Sterilization | Information for Teens
 
"There sterilization procedures for both men and women. These are permanent and for the most part irreversible (or intended to be).

snip

What is female sterilization?

Permanent female sterilization can be achieved through two procedures:

Tubal ligation: This is a surgical procedure performed in a hospital, usually with no over night stay. It involves cutting the fallopian tubes and then tying and cauterizing the cut ends, so the egg does not get out of the tube into the uterus to be fertilized.
Hysteroscopic sterilization (Essure procedure): A hysteroscope, a lighted telescopic instrument, is inserted into the uterus through the cervix. The hysteroscope is used to insert spring-like coils called micro-inserts in the opening of the fallopian tubes. During the following months, scar tissue will form around the inserts and essentially plug the tubes which will keep sperm from fertilizing an egg. A follow-up visit to the doctor is required to make sure that the tubes are completely blocked.

Back-up contraception must be used until blockage is confirmed. This is a minor surgical procedure and requires anesthesia."

Birth Control: Sterilization | Information for Teens

why does everyone seem to have the silly idea that they can "trump" a dictionary definition of the word by linking something from a website? How does that website counteract the undeniable fact that the word is being used in a way that fits with the definition verbatim?
 
why does everyone seem to have the silly idea that they can "trump" a dictionary definition of the word by linking something from a website? How does that website counteract the undeniable fact that the word is being used in a way that fits with the definition verbatim?


Sorry Tucker, but using the dictionary as your 'go to' in the attempt to inflame the issue can only be described as a disingenuous tactic, I know you are better than that....I hope.
 
Sorry Tucker, but using the dictionary as your 'go to' in the attempt to inflame the issue can only be described as a disingenuous tactic, I know you are better than that....I hope.

You know what, it is really rather pathetic that using a word correctly is considered "inflaming" the issue and that the people who take this phenomenally pathetic stance will actively ingore any actual positions of a person, ignore the facts about a word, and ignore all reason and common sense in order to present the LIE that a person who uses a word correctly is doing something disingenuous.

That is pathetic, but **** honesty, right? it's easier to pretend someone else is doing something wrong that it is to actually accept a cold hard truth that we don't quite like.

Go ahead, tell me how it's disingenuous to use a dictionary to define words. I'm sure that the fact that such a concept is truly ****ing retarded will not affect your decision to pretend it is true.
 
Of course not. You are not rendered incapable of reproducing by a condom, your sperm is simply blocked from meeting the egg. Your biological mechanisms are unchanged.

Read post #549 if you are still having difficulties with determining the operational mechanisms of different birth control methods.

You didn't make reference to a condom as a "sterilization technique"?
 
You didn't make reference to a condom as a "sterilization technique"?

Of course not. I thought I was really quite clear about which birth control techniques would be correctly classified as "sterilization techniques": The BC techniques which render a person incapable of reproducing or deprive one of the power to reproduce.

I also specifically placed condoms into an entirely different group of BC techniques in the very next breath of that post (they were specifically mentioned along with the diaphragm as examples of BC methods which work by virtue of physically preventing the gametes from interacting).
 
You know what, it is really rather pathetic that using a word correctly is considered "inflaming" the issue and that the people who take this phenomenally pathetic stance will actively ingore any actual positions of a person, ignore the facts about a word, and ignore all reason and common sense in order to present the LIE that a person who uses a word correctly is doing something disingenuous.

That is pathetic, but **** honesty, right? it's easier to pretend someone else is doing something wrong that it is to actually accept a cold hard truth that we don't quite like.

Go ahead, tell me how it's disingenuous to use a dictionary to define words. I'm sure that the fact that such a concept is truly ****ing retarded will not affect your decision to pretend it is true.


Tucker, you can feign outrage all you like, but the fact remains that standard forms of BC are NOT sterilization. The two are totally different, not only in scope, but in practice.
 
Tucker, you can feign outrage all you like, but the fact remains that standard forms of BC are NOT sterilization. The two are totally different, not only in scope, but in practice.

Stop making **** up and pretending it is true. It is disingenuous.

The FACTS are as follows:


1 Even if you decide to use the definition of "sterilization" that had the permanance requirement to the exclusion of all of all of the other valid definitons of the word, sterilization IS a standard form of birth control. It's an extremely common approach. That alone proves that you are just making **** up because of your own irrational fear of the word applying here.

2 The use of the word in the context of any procedure or medication which deprives a person of the power of reproduction is perfectly valid, regardless of the timeframe of that deprivation.


The real issue here is not, nor has it ever been, my choice to use a word correctly or other people's irrational distaste for a word being used correctly. It is about the consent of those who were given the injections. If they gave informed consent, then the acts of sterilization were fine. Hell, even commendable. If there was no consent, then the acts were not ok. The permanance or impermanance of the particular procedure is not, in any way shape or form, a mitigating factor here. It's entirely about whether consent was granted.

Entirely. If consent wasn't granted, the impermanance of the procedure doesn't make it "less horrific". If consent was granted, it would not matter if the procedure was permanant, it would still be perfectly fine, even commendable.
 
Stop making **** up and pretending it is true. It is disingenuous.

The FACTS are as follows:


1 Even if you decide to use the definition of "sterilization" that had the permanance requirement to the exclusion of all of all of the other valid definitons of the word, sterilization IS a standard form of birth control. It's an extremely common approach. That alone proves that you are just making **** up because of your own irrational fear of the word applying here.

2 The use of the word in the context of any procedure or medication which deprives a person of the power of reproduction is perfectly valid, regardless of the timeframe of that deprivation.

You seem more than a little defensive here...Look, we disagree. Contraceptives, and their use is not sterilization no way, no how. I don't care how loose you want to define the term. Common usage of the term means something, and my impression is that you are using the term in lieu of the term contraceptive to make the bad situation Israel has been doing up until now seem worse than it is. That is just inflammatory imho.

The real issue here is not, nor has it ever been, my choice to use a word correctly or other people's irrational distaste for a word being used correctly.

If you were using the word correctly then there wouldn't be any issue with you use of it....

It is about the consent of those who were given the injections. If they gave informed consent, then the acts of sterilization were fine. Hell, even commendable. If there was no consent, then the acts were not ok. The permanance or impermanance of the particular procedure is not, in any way shape or form, a mitigating factor here. It's entirely about whether consent was granted.

Agreed. For what its worth I don't think that Isreal's policy was a correct one in this matter.

Entirely. If consent wasn't granted, the impermanance of the procedure doesn't make it "less horrific". If consent was granted, it would not matter if the procedure was permanant, it would still be perfectly fine, even commendable.

Redundant.
 
True or false: the Drug works as a contraceptive because it deprives them of the power of reproduction while it is in their system.
And that is NOT sterilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(medicine) said:
1 Methods
1.1 Surgical​

[....]
1.2 Transluminal
[....]
1.3 Pharmacological

There is NO working "sterilization pill" that causes permanent inability to reproduce, although there have been HOAXES involving Fictitious Drugs that would purportedly have such effects, notably progesterex.​
Often your purely semantic debate is correct nit-picking, if not substantial. This time, not so.
Proceed.
 
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You seem more than a little defensive here...

I'm certainly defending the truth, yes.

Look, we disagree.


It's not a matter of "agree" or "disagree". It's the facts. You can accept the facts, or you can deny them.

Contraceptives, and their use is not sterilization no way, no how.

So you chose th epath of denial.

I don't care how loose you want to define the term.

Fun Fact: I'm not defining the word. I'm using the existing definition.

If I was making up my own definition, then your argument would have some merit, but I'm not. I've cited the definition directly. I've demonstrated beyond a doubt that I am using it ni a way that matches it verbatim (you even agreed by pointing out that the statement I made employing the verbatim definition of the word was a true one).

The fun thing about definitions is that you can test to see if they fit by replacing the defined word with the definition verbatim.

for example:

"The Ethiopians were temporarily sterilized by these injections." becomes "The Ethiopians were temporarily deprived of the power of reproducing by these injections."

That test proves my use of the word to be correct. I conveyed exactly the same meaning in both sentences.

Common usage of the term means something

People misuse words all the time in "common usage", that doesn't change their meaning.

For example: Ironic being used to mean coincidental is incorrect, but more people use it that way than there are people who use it correctly. Am I supposed to not use the word ironic correctly simply because other people are ignorant of its meaning?

and my impression is that you are using the term in lieu of the term contraceptive to make the bad situation Israel has been doing up until now seem worse than it is.

Your ignorance of what a word means has no bearing on my use of the word. I've been very clear about what I mean and about why I am using the word. I've also been very clear that the only way Israel might have done something wrong is if there was no consent granted. Even then, Israel will only have done something wrong if it was something that the government or government officials imposed, rather than the acts of some criminals who were under their control.

In fact, I've been very clear and adamant about pointing out that such irrational emotional connotations as you suggest I am employing serve no purpose but to distract from the real issue at hand, and that it wouldn't matter to me if the sterilization was via injected contraceptives or if it was a permanent surgical procedure, the only thing that matters is consent.

The problem here is that you are dutifully ignoring that which I am saying and focusing on your own interpretation of the word "sterilization". Don't do that.




If you were using the word correctly then there wouldn't be any issue with you use of it....

That can't possibly be true since you yourself have accused me of using it in an "inflammatory" way for using the word in a way that adheres perfectly to the dictionary definition of the word verbatim.



Agreed. For what its worth I don't think that Isreal's policy was a correct one in this matter.

Ironically, I'm leaning toward the idea that Israel's policy was fine and that some individuals enacted the policy in an incredibly immoral way. I think that a general policy to provide free birth control to people is actually commendable. I don't think it was executed all that well, but the Israeli government itself doesn't really seem to be engaging in anything malicious here.
 
And that is NOT sterilization.


Often your purely semantic debate is correct nit-picking, if not substantial. This time, not so.
Proceed.

No matter how often you avoid using a dictionary to get the definition of the word, dictionaries still remain the proper source for definitions. An academic like yourself should surely comprehend this.

Proceed.
 
I'm certainly defending the truth, yes.




It's not a matter of "agree" or "disagree". It's the facts. You can accept the facts, or you can deny them.



So you chose th epath of denial.



Fun Fact: I'm not defining the word. I'm using the existing definition.

If I was making up my own definition, then your argument would have some merit, but I'm not. I've cited the definition directly. I've demonstrated beyond a doubt that I am using it ni a way that matches it verbatim (you even agreed by pointing out that the statement I made employing the verbatim definition of the word was a true one).

The fun thing about definitions is that you can test to see if they fit by replacing the defined word with the definition verbatim.

for example:

"The Ethiopians were temporarily sterilized by these injections." becomes "The Ethiopians were temporarily deprived of the power of reproducing by these injections."

That test proves my use of the word to be correct. I conveyed exactly the same meaning in both sentences.



People misuse words all the time in "common usage", that doesn't change their meaning.

For example: Ironic being used to mean coincidental is incorrect, but more people use it that way than there are people who use it correctly. Am I supposed to not use the word ironic correctly simply because other people are ignorant of its meaning?



Your ignorance of what a word means has no bearing on my use of the word. I've been very clear about what I mean and about why I am using the word. I've also been very clear that the only way Israel might have done something wrong is if there was no consent granted. Even then, Israel will only have done something wrong if it was something that the government or government officials imposed, rather than the acts of some criminals who were under their control.

In fact, I've been very clear and adamant about pointing out that such irrational emotional connotations as you suggest I am employing serve no purpose but to distract from the real issue at hand, and that it wouldn't matter to me if the sterilization was via injected contraceptives or if it was a permanent surgical procedure, the only thing that matters is consent.

The problem here is that you are dutifully ignoring that which I am saying and focusing on your own interpretation of the word "sterilization". Don't do that.






That can't possibly be true since you yourself have accused me of using it in an "inflammatory" way for using the word in a way that adheres perfectly to the dictionary definition of the word verbatim.





Ironically, I'm leaning toward the idea that Israel's policy was fine and that some individuals enacted the policy in an incredibly immoral way. I think that a general policy to provide free birth control to people is actually commendable. I don't think it was executed all that well, but the Israeli government itself doesn't really seem to be engaging in anything malicious here.


Your arrogance aside, tell me Tucker, is depo 100% effective?
 
Your arrogance aside, tell me Tucker, is depo 100% effective?

Seriously, the reason I seem arrogant is simply because I realize questions like that one are irrelevant. It's as irrelevant as me pointing out that tubal ligations and vasectomies are not 100% effective.

What difference does efficacy make? None. No procedure is 100% effective. We'd all become dumber if we took the debate in that direction.

So instead let me ask: Why on Earth did you even bother to ask such an obviously pointless question?
 
I still think chemical castration is the perfect comparison here. Where the procedure, once always seen as something permanent, is now done through regular injections.

What this seems to suggest is that the means of reaching the desired effect is irrelevant to the intended purpose of the program. If the program is to manage the number of births, within the population and family, then it would seem to be a bit of an equivocation to claim it was a sterilization program (though likely debatable, depending on the details). If the intent was to permanently prevent these women from giving birth, then it was clearly a sterilization program

Naturally both represents clear issues if no regard was given to individual consent
 
Seriously, the reason I seem arrogant is simply because I realize questions like that one are irrelevant. It's as irrelevant as me pointing out that tubal ligations and vasectomies are not 100% effective.

What difference does efficacy make? None. No procedure is 100% effective. We'd all become dumber if we took the debate in that direction.

So instead let me ask: Why on Earth did you even bother to ask such an obviously pointless question?


I think you're splitting hairs that's why...Let me ask if the whole BC debate would appreciate referring to free contraception as Obama wants to sterilize women.
 
I think you're splitting hairs that's why...

So because you think I'm splitting hairs, you decide to ask a totally irrelevant question? How does that make sense?

Let me ask if the whole BC debate would appreciate referring to free contraception as Obama wants to sterilize women.

1. Who gives a **** what they would appreciate or not?

2. there is absolutely no reason to pretend that my statements and arguments in this thread as similar in any way to a claim of "Obama wants to sterilize women". (and just so you know, the reason the comparison is retarded has nothing to do with the word sterilize. Logically the conclusion simply does not follow from the premises. I'd never make such a pathetic amateur logical mistake).

An accurate comparison would be "Let me ask if the who BC debate would appreciate referring to certain forms of free hormone-based contraception as sterilization" since that is exactly what I am doing here by using the word correctly. By virtue of that statement, I'm also in agreement with the idea that the makers of those contraceptive drugs which temporarily sterilize people seek to provide people with the means to be sterilized temporarily should they wish to do so. People who provide such contraceptives free of charge also wish to provide temporary sterilization services to those who wish to accept them. If someone injects another person with these drugs, they have temporarily sterilized that person. If Obama put forth a plan that was just like the Israeli one, you could say Obama wishes to make temporary sterilization medication available to those women who wish to take it. If he forced women to be injected with it, you could say "Obama's plan sterilizes women".

You see, if the sterilized person gave consent, then there's no ****ing problem. If that person did not give consent, then there is a ****ing problem. Because the ****ing issue is the consent.

Simple as that. No need to keep desperately trying to come up with new, stupider ways to avoid admitting the fact that I am using the word correctly. You and others don't like the word because you think it sounds worse than the word contraceptive does. Well tough ****ing ****. Slap on a pair of balls and deal with it.
 
So because you think I'm splitting hairs, you decide to ask a totally irrelevant question? How does that make sense?



1. Who gives a **** what they would appreciate or not?

2. there is absolutely no reason to pretend that my statements and arguments in this thread as similar in any way to a claim of "Obama wants to sterilize women". (and just so you know, the reason the comparison is retarded has nothing to do with the word sterilize. Logically the conclusion simply does not follow from the premises. I'd never make such a pathetic amateur logical mistake).

An accurate comparison would be "Let me ask if the who BC debate would appreciate referring to certain forms of free hormone-based contraception as sterilization" since that is exactly what I am doing here by using the word correctly. By virtue of that statement, I'm also in agreement with the idea that the makers of those contraceptive drugs which temporarily sterilize people seek to provide people with the means to be sterilized temporarily should they wish to do so. People who provide such contraceptives free of charge also wish to provide temporary sterilization services to those who wish to accept them. If someone injects another person with these drugs, they have temporarily sterilized that person. If Obama put forth a plan that was just like the Israeli one, you could say Obama wishes to make temporary sterilization medication available to those women who wish to take it. If he forced women to be injected with it, you could say "Obama's plan sterilizes women".

You see, if the sterilized person gave consent, then there's no ****ing problem. If that person did not give consent, then there is a ****ing problem. Because the ****ing issue is the consent.

Simple as that. No need to keep desperately trying to come up with new, stupider ways to avoid admitting the fact that I am using the word correctly. You and others don't like the word because you think it sounds worse than the word contraceptive does. Well tough ****ing ****. Slap on a pair of balls and deal with it.


You call it what you want Tucker. Your anger over being called on using the word in the most inflammatory way possible is clearly showing your intent. You don't like Israel, you don't think that we should be supporting them, and you searched a way to smear them with an ambiguous meaning of a word that NO ONE, not even doctors use to describe the contraceptive in question.

Was what Israel did wrong? Hell yes. Should they be smeared with that kind of wording that calls forth imagery of Nazi comparison? Nah, that is just your own bias leaking, no dripping forth.

I am done speaking with you on the subject, because you are well into being insulting, and downright angry about it, and I think that shows that you not only know that how you are applying the word is wrong, but but will be unresponsive from here on out, other than to cuss and throw a temper tantrum....So have fun with that k?

:2wave:
 
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