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Bipartisan group of senators to unveil framework for immigration overhaul

Fisher said:
Good luck getting anything with amnesty through the house, and anything without it through the Senate. This, like all the others, will be dead on arrival.
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Good luck to the Republicans thinking their party has long-term viability without getting this issue behind them. You cannot get the hispanic vote, in particular, until this is done.... and the Cons can not win the presidency by losing 70-75% of the hispanic vote.

The Cons have to come up with something and have a large % of their caucus voting for it..... Thinking that you can not have some form of amnesty/ express path to citizenship is naive... there really is no practical alternative
 
longknife said:
This is exactly the same old male bovine excrement proposed several times in the past.

No more than giving those who broke the law by coming her illegally a chance to register and vote Democrat.
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Except for Rubio, they are the same Senators who tried to pass a blanket amnesty back in 2007.

If you remember back in 2007, the American people spoke. In fact so many phone calls and faxes were sent in protest of the amnesty, the phone system in D.C. crashed !
Half of the Senators, Democrat and Republican who supported the amnesty back then are no longer in office.

This amnesty may or may not get through the Senate. But it will never get through the House. Unlike the Senate, the House usually represents the will of the American people. Be it the Second Amendment or immigration and the rule of law. You don't reward criminals for breaking the law.

The GOP has drank the Latino activist kool-aid and actually believe if they support amnesty that Latinos will switch over and start voting Republican. Latinos may be conservative but 2/3 of them will always vote the Democrat ticket because they want free stuff from the government. The American Latino population have become dependent on government just like black Americans.

Over 50 % of all Latino immigrants including illegal aliens are already on the doe. The vast majority of legal Latino immigrants are part of the 47 % who don't pay any individual income taxes. A recent study released just before the November elections revealed that most Latinos, citizens, immigrant and illegal aliens look at the federal government as being the source of prosperity and being successful.

If it were the Democrats who opposed amnesty and supported the rule of law and the Republicans who spat upon the rule of law and advocated amnesty. The Latino population would still vote the Democrat ticket because they want their Obama phone.
 
McCain, Lindsay Grahamnesty and Rubio are doing their best to insure that the Republican Party never wins another election, just by the sheer numbers of lifetime dependents with huge families that they want to fill the country.

It's absolutely shameful that they have no concern for the Americans that built this country at all, they simply want to give it Mexicans. No concern for the stolen American jobs, the crime, the violence, ruined cities, schools, neighborhoods, even entire states. It's disgusting to watch them try to appear so noble and caring on television. What a terrible thing for a country to be stuck with politicians who have turned on their own country and gloat as it is destroyed.

The RINOs have broken the hearts of Americans.
 
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Ray410 said:
McCain, Lindsay Grahamnesty and Rubio are doing their best to insure that the Republican Party never wins another election, just by the sheer numbers of lifetime dependents with huge families that they want to fill the country.
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With the Hispanic share of voters increasing and expected to continue to increase consistent with demographic change, a policy approach that ignores the needs and concerns of that growing demographic group will lead to defeat. A scorched earth immigration approach is neither feasible nor practical. It is a recipe for long-term political defeat. If Hispanic voting patterns evolve along the lines of those of African Americans whereby a large and permanent majority votes for Democratic candidates, the GOP will not be competitive in national elections except during crises that alter more typical voting patterns.

No concern for the stolen American jobs...
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The job impact is small. From the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank: FRBSF Economic Letter: The Effect of Immigrants on U.S. Employment and Productivity (2010-26, 8/30/2010)

Moreover, the jobs are not "stolen." In a market, one has to compete. In general, one wants to command a higher wage, one must be more productive than one's competitors. If one wants to avoid price (or wage) competition, one must offer skills that are difficult or costly for others to imitate. Those skills lie in knowledge-intensive industries. Even as the U.S. economy remains approximately 4 million jobs below its December 2007 level, there has been sizable job growth in the health care and education services sectors. In contrast, large losses persist in construction (where earlier job figures were distorted by the housing bubble meaning many such jobs won't return) and manufacturing (complex competitive issues impact some of this sector ranging from German leadership in advanced manufacturing techniques to cost differences with overseas rivals for more simple manufacturing approaches e.g., assembly). That restructuring of the labor market has virtually nothing to do with undocumented immigrants, even as it impacts millions of people.
 
Just another take on amnesty in an attempt to buy votes. McCain even said so.

(CNN) – A bipartisan group of senators expressed confidence Monday in their proposal for major immigration reform. But after the last big congressional push failed in 2007, many are asking why it would work this time around.

"Elections. Elections," Republican Sen. John McCain said Monday in a press conference, when CNN's Dana Bash asked what was behind the optimism. "The Republican Party is losing the support of our Hispanic citizens and we realize that there are many issues on which we think we are in agreement with our Hispanic citizens but this is a preeminent issue with those citizens."
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There should be no changes made to avoid punishing illegals until they stop new ones from coming in. And then we should pass everify to make it impossible for illegals to get jobs.
 
StringBean said:
--True they are guilty of a crime. But it is relevant whether they are a threat to society or whether they really want to be here to provide for their families.
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I could care less if they want to provide for their families.They are here illegally. They basically stealing jobs and education and are artificially keeping wages low.

--Not if the borders are secured as a condition of an amnesty bill. It is, unquestionably, a necessary step in solving the problem long-term
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They could care less about the enforcement provision.This is not the first mass amnesty,they promised enforcement provisions with the Reagan amnesty. Those provisions were gutted or funding was denied.So only a ****en moron believes that these pro-illegal scum in office are serious about enforcement provisions.

--I've seen estimates that suggest anywhere from 10-30 million illegal aliens are in this country. Consider, however, that it serves society well when they become taxpaying citizens like everyone else.
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And that number will triple or quadruple in twenty years from now just like it did after Reagan amnesty if this Obama amnesty passes..

What if self-deportation fails and no path to citizenship is granted?
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Its worked in states that enacted strict anti-illegal immigration laws. California is a sanctuary state.As long as scum in office kiss the asses of those who aid and habor illegals in those states they will always be infested with illegals.

We still have millions of illegals not contributing to the system they benefit from.


--If they do indeed pay no income tax once granted citizenship, that is a reflection of poor tax policy. Through the other forms of taxation at least they will be contributing something.
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They work low wages jobs, they are not going to contribute just like the 50% of American households already do not pay federal taxes.

I'm sure the vast majority of those granted amnesty by Reagan speak fluent English. It's absurd to live in a country for decades and not learn the native language.
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Not if you got lots of scum in office who kiss their asses for the votes of those who harbor and aid them.
 
StringBean said:
You can't kick out 10 million people, the vast majority of whom are non-violent and likely have family already here in the country. Let's be responsible: self-deportation is not a solution. The only way to get 10 million people out of the country is to go door-to-door and ask everyone for their papers. We don't do that in this country. Let's make them pay some sort of restitution for their illegal activity (paying all back taxes is a decent start you must admit), learn our history, learn Enlgish, and then we can move on to other major issues.
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They are still good ideas, it would probably just have to come after the ones who are already here were given a chance to stay. But we can't keep playing this game where we amnesty the last group of illegals without making it harder for future illegals to take their place.
 
zstep18 said:
Wait, I don't want to jail American citizens for "non-violent" crimes.
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I wasn't speaking to you directly was I ?

As an American, and no my descendents DID NOT come here illegally, I'm held responsible if I break the law.

And lets discuss "descendents". Mine came from England, not a Northern Mexican slum of a dirt poor City were the average IQ is 80 and the average education level is maybe equivalent to a second grader.

We're talking about giving amnesty to NOT 10 MILLION but close to 30 million criminals.

Criminals who effectively lower the cumalitive IQ of our nations by merely setting foot in it.

Criminals that were raised like animals and who leer whistle and stare at my pre-teen duaghters until I tap the glock size hump under my jacket and let them know the world would be a better place without their retardation.

Criminals who regularly get involved in hit and run accidents, carry no auto ins and no drivers license and walk away from accidents with a handful of tickets they'll never pay, or birth as many litters as possible so as to take advantage of the American social safety net and when doing it lament the Country they cirrently are taking advantage of.
 
upsideguy said:
Good luck to the Republicans thinking their party has long-term viability without getting this issue behind them. You cannot get the hispanic vote, in particular, until this is done.... and the Cons can not win the presidency by losing 70-75% of the hispanic vote.

The Cons have to come up with something and have a large % of their caucus voting for it..... Thinking that you can not have some form of amnesty/ express path to citizenship is naive... there really is no practical alternative
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Exactly -- that's why the activity in D.C. right now is "bipartisan", because the Repubs foolishly think the illegals and their sympathisers will forget that it's been the Dems for years who've pushed amnesty and legalization and that it's the Dems who will fight for higher minium wage for the millions of new legal workers -- not owners and managers -- that amnesty and legalization will cause.

:roll:

Joining the push for amnesty and legalization is tantamount to suicide for the Repubs! :cool:

That the Repubs think they can win favor with like-religioned illegals and then manipulate them with guilt via their religion to vote Repub shows just how stupid .. and thoughtlessly desperate .. the Repubs have become.

The Repubs would do well to continue to block amnesty and legalization, no matter what that means, as it is the right thing to do in every way for American citizens, and that will get noticed .. and remembered on voting day by informed Americans.

But for liberals to cheer on Repubs in stumping for amnesty and legalization is the height of cynicism and Benedict Arnold betrayl of fellow American citizens, not to mention obvious manipulation.
 
Fenton said:
And lets discuss "descendents". Mine came from England, not a Northern Mexican slum of a dirt poor City were the average IQ is 80 .....Criminals who effectively lower the cumalitive IQ of our nations by merely setting foot in it.
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In case anyone didn't notice, this is an example of a racist argument that contradicts well established scientific evidence of racial equality.
 
This is MUCH better than nothing.

I am especially glad to see that Jeff Flake is an part of it: he was, for many years, the most reliably libertarian US congressman (after Ron Paul, but without his, eh, "folksy" manner). I was afraid that getting into Senate will change him into a more conventional Republican.

I don't want to sound like someone in a grip of irrational exhuberance, but this may - just may - be a first step toward restoring the GOP of Ronald Reagan, Jack Kemp and Alan Simpson - not the worst version, by far. I'd like to think that some 20 years from now, people will read about the present-day collectivist, police-state atrocities like the Arizona' SB1070 and exclaim: " And Republicans had supported this thing?! No way!"

Well, there are many things I'd like to think...
 
Fenton said:
I wasn't speaking to you directly was I ?

As an American, and no my descendents DID NOT come here illegally, I'm held responsible if I break the law.

And lets discuss "descendents". Mine came from England, not a Northern Mexican slum of a dirt poor City were the average IQ is 80 and the average education level is maybe equivalent to a second grader.

We're talking about giving amnesty to NOT 10 MILLION but close to 30 million criminals.

Criminals who effectively lower the cumalitive IQ of our nations by merely setting foot in it.

Criminals that were raised like animals and who leer whistle and stare at my pre-teen duaghters until I tap the glock size hump under my jacket and let them know the world would be a better place without their retardation.

Criminals who regularly get involved in hit and run accidents, carry no auto ins and no drivers license and walk away from accidents with a handful of tickets they'll never pay, or birth as many litters as possible so as to take advantage of the American social safety net and when doing it lament the Country they cirrently are taking advantage of.
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You're either one sick dude, or a boisterous piece of ****. I'm not sure which. Ether way, you are definitely prejudiced toward Mexicans, at least behind their back.
 
People in Mexico look at this stupidity and laugh.

Enter Mexico illegally and get thrown in jail, then transported to the border and sent across.

No amnesty. No probationary status. Just OUT!
 
Business in the USA depends on a supply of cheap labor, that is the real driver for lax immigration enforcement much more than liberals.

If immigration laws were actually enforced the price of goods and services in this country will increase drastically, esp food prices. I don't think most people in the USA really will accept that.

".....“The enforcement of immigration policy has devastated the skilled-labor source that we’ve depended on for 20 or 30 years,” said Ralph Broetje during a recent teleconference organized by the National Immigration Forum, adding that last year Washington farmers — part of an $8 billion agriculture industry — were forced to leave 10% of their crops rotting on vines and trees. “It’s getting worse each year,” says Broetje, “and it’s going to end up putting some growers out of business if Congress doesn’t step up and do immigration reform.”

Roughly 70% of the 1.2 million people employed by the agriculture industry are undocumented. No U.S. industry is more dependent on undocumented immigrants. But acute labor shortages brought on by anti-immigration measures threaten to heap record losses on an industry emerging from years of stiff foreign competition. Nationwide, labor shortages will result in losses of up to $9 billion, according to the American Farm Bureau Federation.

In Arizona, Nan Walden’s complaints mirror those of the Broetjes. Walden is vice president of the family-owned Farmers Investment Co., the largest grower and processor of pecans in the world, with 6,000 acres (2,500 hectares) of farmland in the Santa Cruz Valley, 35 miles (56 km) from the U.S.-Mexico border. Walden says the state system in place for luring seasonal workers is wholly inefficient and adds that Arizona’s infamous SB1070 immigration law has only compounded the problem, creating a climate of fear for Arizona employers and employees. “This has led to people leaving our state, going to other states without these ambiguous clouds and legal sanctions hanging over employers’ and employees’ heads,” says Walden.

Farming operations nationwide, from New York to Georgia to California, are reeling from similar labor shortages despite offering domestic workers competitive packages that include 401(k) plans and health insurance. Almost in unison, farmers complain that even when they are able to lure domestic workers to what often amounts to high-skilled, grueling work, it’s not long before they abandon the job...."

Read more: U.S. Farmers Urge Changes to Immigration Law Amid Labor Shortage | TIME.com
 
Hard Truth said:
Business in the USA depends on a supply of cheap labor, that is the real driver for lax immigration enforcement much more than liberals.

If immigration laws were actually enforced the price of goods and services in this country will increase drastically, esp food prices. I don't think most people in the USA really will accept that.

".....“The enforcement of immigration policy has devastated the skilled-labor source that we’ve depended on for 20 or 30 years,” said Ralph Broetje during a recent teleconference organized by the National Immigration Forum, adding that last year Washington farmers — part of an $8 billion agriculture industry — were forced to leave 10% of their crops rotting on vines and trees. “It’s getting worse each year,” says Broetje, “and it’s going to end up putting some growers out of business if Congress doesn’t step up and do immigration reform.”

Roughly 70% of the 1.2 million people employed by the agriculture industry are undocumented. No U.S. industry is more dependent on undocumented immigrants. But acute labor shortages brought on by anti-immigration measures threaten to heap record losses on an industry emerging from years of stiff foreign competition. Nationwide, labor shortages will result in losses of up to $9 billion, according to the American Farm Bureau Federation.

In Arizona, Nan Walden’s complaints mirror those of the Broetjes. Walden is vice president of the family-owned Farmers Investment Co., the largest grower and processor of pecans in the world, with 6,000 acres (2,500 hectares) of farmland in the Santa Cruz Valley, 35 miles (56 km) from the U.S.-Mexico border. Walden says the state system in place for luring seasonal workers is wholly inefficient and adds that Arizona’s infamous SB1070 immigration law has only compounded the problem, creating a climate of fear for Arizona employers and employees. “This has led to people leaving our state, going to other states without these ambiguous clouds and legal sanctions hanging over employers’ and employees’ heads,” says Walden.

Farming operations nationwide, from New York to Georgia to California, are reeling from similar labor shortages despite offering domestic workers competitive packages that include 401(k) plans and health insurance. Almost in unison, farmers complain that even when they are able to lure domestic workers to what often amounts to high-skilled, grueling work, it’s not long before they abandon the job...."

Read more: U.S. Farmers Urge Changes to Immigration Law Amid Labor Shortage | TIME.com
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And if we make all these illegals legal then we have to pay them minimum wage, which means prices go up.
 
jonny5 said:
And if we make all these illegals legal then we have to pay them minimum wage, which means prices go up.
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Possibly, or the employers will hire the next crop of illegal immigrants while the amnestied workers move on to better jobs. In my opinion, enforcing the minimum wage laws, and making the minimum wage reasonable, would be the fairest and most effective way to reduce the continued influx of undocumented workers. However, any method that limits the ability of employers to pay substandard wages will cause price increases. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but it insures there will be opposition to such a plan.
 
There are people who immigrate illegally who are better citizens than some born here. They deserve a chance to prove it.

Besides, we're all illegal immigrants.
 
Deuce said:
There are people who immigrate illegally who are better citizens than some born here. They deserve a chance to prove it.
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No one who trespasses upon another's soil, forges false identities, and steals another's jobs/classrooms/other resources deserves anything but criminal prosecution, obviously.

Whatever your issues are with some American citizens is irrelevant with respect to both law and justice for all American citizens.


Deuce said:
Besides, we're all illegal immigrants.
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False and meaningless, a tired nothing of an argument that reflects the rationally lost position of pro-illegals and their disrespect for justice and rule of law.
 
Deuce said:
There are people who immigrate illegally who are better citizens than some born here. They deserve a chance to prove it.

Besides, we're all illegal immigrants.
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How do you figure? I was born here.
 
Hard Truth said:
Business in the USA depends on a supply of cheap labor, that is the real driver for lax immigration enforcement much more than liberals.

If immigration laws were actually enforced the price of goods and services in this country will increase drastically, esp food prices. I don't think most people in the USA really will accept that.
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It's very simple to fix that problem. From the numbers I've seen there area about 10,000,000 Americans on Welfare or Unemployment Insurance. There's your pool of workers right there. If they don't want to do the jobs, fine. They don't get anything from the government. Period. End of problem.
 
Tigger said:
It's very simple to fix that problem. From the numbers I've seen there area about 10,000,000 Americans on Welfare or Unemployment Insurance. There's your pool of workers right there. If they don't want to do the jobs, fine. They don't get anything from the government. Period. End of problem.
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Many of the people on welfare are caring for a child or physically unable to do farm work and many other jobs that immigrants work. Requiring a laid-off skilled worker on unemployment to pick fruit instead of letting him/her look for work while on unemployment does not benefit anyone. Just paying the legal workers minimum wage will increase the costs of goods and services.

"Tuesday, October 04, 2011, 6:00 PM Updated: Tuesday, October 04, 2011, 6:00 PM
The Associated Press ATLANTA — A farm labor shortage that left crops rotting in the fields after Georgia passed a law cracking down on illegal immigration shows the need for a retooled or expanded guest worker program for migrant laborers, Georgia's agriculture commissioner told a panel of Washington lawmakers Tuesday.

Commissioner Gary Black testified at a Senate subcommittee hearing on immigration enforcement and farm labor that an informal survey showed farmers of onions, watermelons and other handpicked crops lacked more than 11,000 workers during their spring and summer harvest. Farmers say that's because the Georgia immigration law scared off many migrant workers. Similar complaints are being heard in Alabama with its tough new law.

Financial incentives aimed at getting unemployed Georgians and even criminals on probation to take their place picking crops were marginally successful, Black said, because the new workers were too slow and often quit because of the strenuous labor involved..........."
Crackdown on illegal immigrants left crops rotting in Georgia fields, ag chief tells US lawmakers | al.com
 
StringBean said:
I'm pretty amazed the Senate actually beat the president to it on this one.

A rare kudos to them for once.
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well, they wanted to get their option out there before the President wrecked any chance of getting this done. I don't know why except for image, like anyone other than the junkies are paying attention.
 
cpwill said:
well, they wanted to get their option out there before the President wrecked any chance of getting this done. I don't know why except for image, like anyone other than the junkies are paying attention.
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Yeah, when I heard senators from both parties had agreed to a a basic framework, I was like "Obama just shut up and let Congress do their job we all know your plan is gonna be too left-wing to pass."

And what do you know, nothing in Obama's plan about border security ....
 
FWIW, Elizabeth F. Cohen, associate professor at Syracuse University’s Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs, has an op-ed in today's edition of The Washington Post that discusses a path to citizenship for the nation's undocumented immigrants.

Excerpts:

Loyalists’ actions prior to the founding could hardly be called exemplary, yet they sought citizenship after the nation was established...

In 1805 the Supreme Court heard the first case testing whether members of this population could be considered citizens. The court stated that, because the former Loyalists stayed while the states were debating and ratifying the Constitution, they were qualified for citizenship. This and later decisions showed how, over time, the country exercised reason and consent to create citizenship — even allowing the original sin of fighting against the formation of the nation to be forgiven...

Today we live in a robust democracy, not in a fragile young republic. Yet many people are afraid that naturalizing undocumented or temporary workers who have lived here for years will trivialize our immigration laws. We might learn from the example of our founders, who conquered a far greater fear when they gave citizenship to former Loyalists and created rules for naturalizing new immigrants. People become citizens when they invest years building their lives in this country. Denying them naturalization or selling legal status only to people who can afford high fees and legal expenses doesn’t make our border-control and immigration laws stronger. It makes them unfair.

Should illegal immigrants become citizens? Let’s ask the founding fathers. - The Washington Post
 
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