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Former CIA officer John Kiriakou is sentenced to 30 months in prison for leaks

End the cruel, immoral practice of torture.

Not likely. Torture, far from anything we have done in questioning terror suspects, has gone on long before there ever was a United States, and will go on long after.

Protect the USA's constitition. (remember the concept of cruel and unusual punishment?)

You'd have to show where that applies to unlawful enemy combatants, not within the United States borders...Short of that this applies to US citizens.

Demonstrate that government officials are required to obey the law and should be held accountable for their actions.

Accountable? Don't make me puke! Show me where this administration is accountable for ANYTHING so far...Accountability is only a catch phrase for those who hold irrational hatred in their heart for a political goal.

Respect and comply with international law, so that other countries will be more likely to follow our example.

International law? When the rest of the world can attain our standard, then maybe they can lecture us....Til then, not so much.

Reduce the chances that our military personnel will be tortured if captured by our opponents.

How quaint that you think that radical Islamists will adhere to the GC....

Improve the USA's tarnished international image.

Oh boo freakin' hoo....You don't need to like me to respect me.

Reduce a source of unreliable intelligence.

Intel gleaned from the use of wateboarding aided in the kill of OBL....You were saying?

Stop the spread of torture to other uses, such as other crimes and political uses.

You fear that do you?

Reduce the number of sadists in positions of power.

Your personal characterizations do not count....sorry.

Save innocent people form torture.

Yes because it is only the big bad US that is at fault right?

In m view, if anyone knows of a genuine ticking timebomb situation that requires the use of torture to obtain information, they should do what is necessary. If they use torture they should be put on trial for their crime. If their justification is legit, they will not be convicted.

The USA survived for over two hundred years without legalized torture. I believe we can continue to survive without it. I will accept the risk of occassional terrorist attack in exchange for living in a free country where citizens have little fear of being tortured, imprisoned without trial, or murdered by their governement. Look at the history of governments that routinely use these techniques and see if they are the type of societies that you would want to live in.

Oh spare me the naive mindset....In the real world with this outlook that you display, I don't know frankly if I would trust you to adjudicate a petty crime of theft of a pack of chewing gum...You'd probably let the thief go, and charge the store owner. But that aside, cue to 'buy everyone a coke' song, and leave real problems in the world to those of us that recognize the threat, and don't think that the problem can be solved with a slice of chocolate cake, and a tall glass of milk, and a pretty please....:roll:

 
To you it is an accurate comparison, to me it is "made up nonsense".

The Japanese soldiers who were hanged or sent to labor camps after being convicted of torture for the use of waterboarding may have disagreed about my claim being "made up nonsense". Its a warcrime, obviously not as severe as death camps, but still a very serious allegation. Trying to defend against the charge by saying "I was following orders" "it was justified under the circumstances" or "you don't have jurisdiction" didn't fly in 1946 and is equally invalid today.

Clearly you are right about the latter being illegal since the WH authorized a lot of this stuff and reauthorized it with the new President

The refusal to uphold the law is precisely the problem.
 
For J-mac and anyone else: tell me about a nation (provide both time and place) that legalized the use of torture by the government that you consider an attractive place to live. Me, I associate it with places like South American, African and Middle Eastern countries under brutal military or religious dictatorships, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China during their worst years et al. I can't recall a just, civilized and free country with legalized torture. Who have I overlooked?
 
The Japanese soldiers who were hanged or sent to labor camps after being convicted of torture for the use of waterboarding may have disagreed about my claim being "made up nonsense". Its a warcrime, obviously not as severe as death camps, but still a very serious allegation. Trying to defend against the charge by saying "I was following orders" "it was justified under the circumstances" or "you don't have jurisdiction" didn't fly in 1946 and is equally invalid today.



The refusal to uphold the law is precisely the problem.

And yet a conservative republican and an allegedly liberal democrat president have done nothing to close the Gitmo camp and neither has the world. Your side has lost the initiative and the law due to the war in terror. Best of luck in the future with that "invalidity" argument. Facts on the ground always trump idealism.
 
For J-mac and anyone else: tell me about a nation (provide both time and place) that legalized the use of torture by the government that you consider an attractive place to live. Me, I associate it with places like South American, African and Middle Eastern countries under brutal military or religious dictatorships, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China during their worst years et al. I can't recall a just, civilized and free country with legalized torture. Who have I overlooked?


According to you, you live in one right now.....Are you moving?
 
And yet a conservative republican and an allegedly liberal democrat president have done nothing to close the Gitmo camp and neither has the world. Your side has lost the initiative and the law due to the war in terror. Best of luck in the future with that "invalidity" argument. Facts on the ground always trump idealism.

I'm going to remember that last line for when you argue about how some liberal policy is unconstitutional
 
I'm going to remember that last line for when you argue about how some liberal policy is unconstitutional

Feel free, but you please pay close attention to what I do say because I wouldn't want you to whip it out prematurely.
 
And yet a conservative republican and an allegedly liberal democrat president have done nothing to close the Gitmo camp and neither has the world. Your side has lost the initiative and the law due to the war in terror. Best of luck in the future with that "invalidity" argument. Facts on the ground always trump idealism.

I'll freely admit that both political power bases condone torture and that my viewpoint has little influence in government. However, one should never confuse that with law. Legislation, treaty and court rulings all agree that torture is illegal. They may not have been enforced, but the rulings still stand.

The whole "justification" for torture has been based on smoke and mirrors, not actual legal principle. The made up "enemy combatant" concept, the idea that Gitmo isn't U.S. territory, trying to claim waterboarding isn't torture, or kidnapping people and letting other nations do the dirty work. Nobody is actually willing to outright state that they think torture should be legal, they simply do enough obfuscating to avoid any actual punishment. If torture really was legal, we would have repealed the parts of title 18 and withdrawn our 1994 ratification for the convention against torture.

Its correct to say that one get away with torture nowadays, but it was and is still a crime.
 
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
For J-mac and anyone else: tell me about a nation (provide both time and place) that legalized the use of torture by the government that you consider an attractive place to live. Me, I associate it with places like South American, African and Middle Eastern countries under brutal military or religious dictatorships, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China during their worst years et al. I can't recall a just, civilized and free country with legalized torture. Who have I overlooked?

According to you, you live in one right now.....Are you moving?

I guess you couldn't name any other countries that torture that have good governments.

The current president claims to have ended the practice, but still uses renditions to get third parties to do it. I'm working on changing the USA's policies on torture. If things get hopeless and worse I might move.
 
Originally Posted by Hard Truth
For J-mac and anyone else: tell me about a nation (provide both time and place) that legalized the use of torture by the government that you consider an attractive place to live. Me, I associate it with places like South American, African and Middle Eastern countries under brutal military or religious dictatorships, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia and China during their worst years et al. I can't recall a just, civilized and free country with legalized torture. Who have I overlooked?



I guess you couldn't name any other countries that torture that have good governments.

The current president claims to have ended the practice, but still uses renditions to get third parties to do it. I'm working on changing the USA's policies on torture. If things get hopeless and worse I might move.


Kiriakou was working on it too....See what it got him? Listen, I could understand if you had anything on waterboarding by the US that included more than the 3 people that under went the interrogations. But so far all I see from people like you is that they want to blame the US for every ill in the world, tie our hands behind our backs, and lie about what the US has done. I don't get the mindset. Are we perfect? no. Is anyone? no. But, you come in here and cry crocodile tears for KSM, and pretend that you are somehow better than everyone else because you bitch and moan about the US, while hypocritically continuing to build your life right here in the US. At best, IMHO, it is an ingrates existence, and I have no time for the likes of that type of thinking, much less the people that forward it. Good day.
 
Kiriakou was working on it too....See what it got him? Listen, I could understand if you had anything on waterboarding by the US that included more than the 3 people that under went the interrogations. But so far all I see from people like you is that they want to blame the US for every ill in the world, tie our hands behind our backs, and lie about what the US has done. I don't get the mindset. Are we perfect? no. Is anyone? no. But, you come in here and cry crocodile tears for KSM, and pretend that you are somehow better than everyone else because you bitch and moan about the US, while hypocritically continuing to build your life right here in the US. At best, IMHO, it is an ingrates existence, and I have no time for the likes of that type of thinking, much less the people that forward it. Good day.

1. f you think only three people were tortured you are seriously misinformed. That is not completely your fault since the mainstream media has done a poor job of bringing out these facts and the conservative media has ignored or misrepresented them. The USA has tortured hundreds of people using renditions to have other nations do it or in facilities like Gitmo, Abu Grahib etc. Many of the people that we tortured and brutally murdered were later found to be innocent.

2. I have never lied about anything when making a political argument. If you claim that you know about anyone in the anti-torture movement lying you need to provide evidence.

3. re. "hands tied behind our backs"-The USA went through two World Wars and over two hundred years without needing to use government sanctioned torture. We also encouraged making war criminals accountable after WWII and ratified treaties protecting POWS and prohibiting torture.

4. This is not about being perfect and weeding out a few bad eggs. For the first time in our history our top leaders authorized the use of torture and indefinite imprisonment without any form of due process and without the protections for prisoners of war that we agreed to by treaty. It is a policy issue that can not be discussed without knowing some the facts, facts which this CIA officer risked his life to reveal so the people of our country can know what our government is doing in our name with our tax dollars. Democracy and secrecy about important policy matters are not compatible.

I'm still waiting for one of the torture apologists to name a country that officially sanctions torture that is known to be a just, civilized and free nation. As I said before, government authorized torture is done by brutal dictatorships, not free countries.
 
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I don't know what basic human rights are. I do know what jurisdiction is and I reject International Law since I don't get a vote in it.

Our elected officials make the decision on whether to ratify specific treaties or not. You do have an indirect vote.
 
I remember when this first hit ABC News, and liberals, just looking for the smoking gun to heap some more smear on George Bush all just loved this man, and defended him strongly, calling him a "whistle blower" instead of what he actually was, someone who aided, and abetted our enemies by his self serving release of information, including names of agents involved.

This media whore of a man, used his new found fame to latch on to liberal outlets like HuffPo, and MSNBC as some kind of "expert", and these liberal outlets loved every minute of it....Personally I think 30 months is way too light, life would have been closer to appropriate.

You are hilarious... funny how people on your side had no problems with outing Valerie Plame and no one involved in that was ever arrested nor charged let alone convicted...

This guy is just another political prisoner in the Corporate States of America. Shut him up and throw him in jail and other whistleblowers will think twice before exposing big corporations and government in wrong doing... another victory for establishment.
 
I remember when this first hit ABC News, and liberals, just looking for the smoking gun to heap some more smear on George Bush all just loved this man, and defended him strongly, calling him a "whistle blower" instead of what he actually was, someone who aided, and abetted our enemies by his self serving release of information, including names of agents involved.

This media whore of a man, used his new found fame to latch on to liberal outlets like HuffPo, and MSNBC as some kind of "expert", and these liberal outlets loved every minute of it....Personally I think 30 months is way too light, life would have been closer to appropriate.

Agreed. When you are entrusted with our nations secrets upon which lives depend, then betraying that trust should result in something more approximating life imprisonment, if not the death penalty. Others will suffer the price for your betrayal.
 
You are hilarious... funny how people on your side had no problems with outing Valerie Plame and no one involved in that was ever arrested nor charged let alone convicted...

You will see no argument from me if someone wants to go charge Richard Armitage.

Incidentally, Valerie Plane wasn't a CIA Agent. Sort of an important difference. She was an analyst, not a case-officer.
 
You will see no argument from me if someone wants to go charge Richard Armitage.

Incidentally, Valerie Plane wasn't a CIA Agent. Sort of an important difference. She was an analyst, not a case-officer.

She was a CIA Agent.. and even trying to deny this is.. frankly pathetic.
 
I remember when this first hit ABC News, and liberals, just looking for the smoking gun to heap some more smear on George Bush all just loved this man, and defended him strongly, calling him a "whistle blower" instead of what he actually was, someone who aided, and abetted our enemies by his self serving release of information, including names of agents involved.

This media whore of a man, used his new found fame to latch on to liberal outlets like HuffPo, and MSNBC as some kind of "expert", and these liberal outlets loved every minute of it....Personally I think 30 months is way too light, life would have been closer to appropriate.

You're not quite yet aware of it soldier, but in fact, the domestic enemies to the Constitution are FAR MORE virulent than any domestic enemy. Further, theirs is much more successful, perhaps nearly complete at this point.

Anybody that supports the government war against whistleblowers is suspect, in my book.
 
You're not quite yet aware of it soldier, but in fact, the domestic enemies to the Constitution are FAR MORE virulent than any domestic enemy. Further, theirs is much more successful, perhaps nearly complete at this point.

Anybody that supports the government war against whistleblowers is suspect, in my book.


Well, I've been around long enough to know the difference between a true "whistleblower" and someone using that to cover their own law breaking....Kiriakou is the latter.
 
Well, I've been around long enough to know the difference between a true "whistleblower" and someone using that to cover their own law breaking....Kiriakou is the latter.

I disagree. Perhaps you have Kiriakou confused with Dubya? Or Dick?

Can you offer some signs that allow you to distinguish so easily between a whistleblower and someone using that to cover their own law breaking?

For me, any person who works for the government who uses his knowledge or position to expose the crimes or misfeasance of the government is a whistleblower.
 
I disagree. Perhaps you have Kiriakou confused with Dubya? Or Dick?

Can you offer some signs that allow you to distinguish so easily between a whistleblower and someone using that to cover their own law breaking?

For me, any person who works for the government who uses his knowledge or position to expose the crimes or misfeasance of the government is a whistleblower.


Hmmm....That's a good question....Off the top I'd have to say that taking paid positions on news outlets as their latest "expert" dog and pony show, and publishing a book for profit on this supposed "whistleblowing" would be a start.
 
Odd, I like many liberals, have always considered leaking classified material a criminal act. Nice rant, too bad it is a crock of crap.

You couldn't possibly. All liberals are exactly the same, and if one defended him, then not only did all defend him, but all support leaking classified material.
 
You couldn't possibly. All liberals are exactly the same, and if one defended him, then not only did all defend him, but all support leaking classified material.


I think you need to show where anyone said that. K? Thanks.
 
Hmmm....That's a good question....Off the top I'd have to say that taking paid positions on news outlets as their latest "expert" dog and pony show, and publishing a book for profit on this supposed "whistleblowing" would be a start.

What if a person claiming to be a whistleblower had no success going through normal channels and the chain of command? What if the system rebuffed him because his story threatened so much 'on the inside?' And then some TV channel interviewed him? Does that make him suspect, or only that he received financial compensation for his interview make him the bad guy?
 
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