• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 150]

Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

Any particular reason why?

It's just not the place or it. Brains are not fully developed until the late twenties, so stupid is common. Stupid worries me more than criminal.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

It's just not the place or it. Brains are not fully developed until the late twenties, so stupid is common. Stupid worries me more than criminal.

Regarding the collage this thread is about, as of fall 2012:

LoneStar Collage Student Demographics
3.jpg
That's 38% of the student body who do not met your criteria. I trust you make exception for them, and military veterans.

As of 2009:
Average Student Age on the Rise

The average student age in the U.S. has been climbing steadily in recent years. At both Harvard and Notre Dame the average age is now 27. The University of Phoenix, which offers both online and traditional degree programs, has an average student age of 35-37. On a larger scale thirty-eight percent of all college students are now 25 or older, according to a recent U.S Census Bureau report. So why has the average age been trending upward? There are several factors that have contributed to a more mature scholar.

I project that you also object to <25y/o police officers carrying a service pistol.
 
Last edited:
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

Regarding the collage this thread is about, as of fall 2012:

LoneStar Collage Student Demographics
View attachment 67141488
That's 38% of the student body who do not met your criteria. I trust you make exception for them, and military veterans.

As of 2009:


I project that you also object to <25y/o police officers carrying a service pistol.

That means 62% do.

Why would I object to police officers carrying? I don't see the connection.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

Btw, this shooting seems to support my concern. Two gun carries got into a gun fight over bumping into each other as I understand it.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

That means 62% do.
I believe that's not correct because 39% of the student body cannot carry a concealed hand gun at all, as they are under the legal age to own a hand gun or have a permit.

23% of the student body can legally carry and fall under your age concern.*
38% of the student body can legally carry and do not fall under your age concern.

Given that data, I would ask you to reconsider your position.

Why would I object to police officers carrying? I don't see the connection.
If the age of the person with the gun is your concern, then it follows that a police officer in that same age group would also be a concern to you.

*There is some number of students in the 20-25 age group who, by virtue of being under 21, cannot legally own or posses a hand gun. I was unable to find an exact number of these students so they were lumped in with the 23% for the sake of simplicity. I do not believe the point of my post is affected by this number.

****
Additionally, of those who are outside of your age concern, a small number will be ineligible for a permit due to criminal history, past chemical dependence or default on student loans (financial irresponsibility disqualifies you for a CCW in TX). Of the remaining population who are outside of your age concern and who can get a permit, most generally do not. This policy will not result in every student suddenly being armed. We're talking about a sub-set of a sub-set of a sub-set of the whole student body.
 
Last edited:
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

Btw, this shooting seems to support my concern. Two gun carries got into a gun fight over bumping into each other as I understand it.
Only one person had a gun in this event. He shot his victim, a bystander, and himself.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

I believe that's not correct because 39% of the student body cannot carry a concealed hand gun at all, as they are under the legal age to own a hand gun or have a permit.

23% of the student body can legally carry and fall under your age concern.*
38% of the student body can legally carry and do not fall under your age concern.

Given that data, I would ask you to reconsider your position.


If the age of the person with the gun is your concern, then it follows that a police officer in that same age group would also be a concern to you.

*There is some number of students in the 20-25 age group who, by virtue of being under 21, cannot legally own or posses a hand gun. I was unable to find an exact number of these students so they were lumped in with the 23% for the sake of simplicity. I do not believe the point of my post is affected by this number.

****
Additionally, of those who are outside of your age concern, a small number will be ineligible for a permit due to criminal history, past chemical dependence or default on student loans (financial irresponsibility disqualifies you for a CCW in TX). Of the remaining population who are outside of your age concern and who can get a permit, most generally do not. This policy will not result in every student suddenly being armed. We're talking about a sub-set of a sub-set of a sub-set of the whole student body.

No, the age criteria was my issue, so 62% would fit that. As for number of holders, it doesn't take a lot.

As for the police, I would hope younger recruits are paired with experienced officers. I also know at east Chicago was looking at rising the age.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

Only one person had a gun in this event. He shot his victim, a bystander, and himself.

Over being bumped into and a mugging.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

No, the age criteria was my issue, so 62% would fit that. As for number of holders, it doesn't take a lot.
This new policy only applies to people who can get a permit. Those who cannot get a permit are unaffected by this policy, they remain legally barred from carrying.

Over being bumped into and a mugging.
Yes, and this individual has a prior criminal history which would prevent him from legaly carrying a gun at this collage even under the new policy, so I don't see why he's part of your concern. Instead, he's part of my concern; criminals who carry illegally and will draw if I simply bump into them.

That is btw a causal relationship fallacy.
Claiming that something is a fallacy does nothing for you. You have to mechanically demonstrate the fallacy.

The point of the picture is to give context: everyone is clamoring over 20 children, when more have died in a state with stricter gun control.

That's not a fallacy, that's just a fact.

I note that you choose not to respond to my argument, that 39% of the student body fall outside of your age concern. Do you make exception for them, or do you not? What about military veterans who are in your age concern, do you make exception for them?

If you choose not to address that point I will assume you have no interest in a genuine exchange of substance and are either trolling or grandstanding.
 
Last edited:
Re: Lone Star College Shooting Leaves 3 Injured, 'Person of Interest' in Custody[W: 1

This new policy only applies to people who can get a permit. Those who cannot get a permit are unaffected by this policy, they remain legally barred from carrying.


Yes, and this individual has a prior criminal history which would prevent him from legaly carrying a gun at this collage even under the new policy, so I don't see why he's part of your concern. Instead, he's part of my concern; criminals who carry illegally and will draw if I simply bump into them.


Claiming that something is a fallacy does nothing for you. You have to mechanically demonstrate the fallacy.

The point of the picture is to give context: everyone is clamoring over 20 children, when more have died in a state with stricter gun control.

That's not a fallacy, that's just a fact.

I note that you choose not to respond to my argument, that 39% of the student body fall outside of your age concern. Do you make exception for them, or do you not? What about military veterans who are in your age concern, do you make exception for them?

If you choose not to address that point I will assume you have no interest in a genuine exchange of substance and are either trolling or grandstanding.

I assume you know what a causal relationship fallacy is. You cannot assume that gun laws have anything to do with the crime numbers. There are far too many other factors involved. Both sides make this mistake. Noting this is addressing your point.

And I have addressed the age issue as well. Some 61% do fall within in the age group, and it only takes a small number to cause huge problems. Schools are larger safer than anyplace else, and you are very unlikely to find anywhere there calm or experienced enough to do anything positive with a gun, but they will bump into each other.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

I assume you know what a causal relationship fallacy is. You cannot assume that gun laws have anything to do with the crime numbers. There are far too many other factors involved. Both sides make this mistake. Noting this is addressing your point.

And I have addressed the age issue as well. Some 61% do fall within in the age group, and it only takes a small number to cause huge problems. Schools are larger safer than anyplace else, and you are very unlikely to find anywhere there calm or experienced enough to do anything positive with a gun, but they will bump into each other.
Please stop evading and answer my questions:

*Do you make eception for students who are not in the age group you are worried about?

*Do you make exception for students who are in the age group your worried about, but who are also military veterans?

That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.
 
Last edited:
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

Please stop evading and answer my questions:

*Do you make eception for students who are not in the age group you are worried about?

*Do you make exception for students who are in the age group your worried about, but who are also military veterans?

That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.

Not really, no. There is simply no place for guns on campus by students or faculty (I know those people, trust me). Youth is but one reason. Lack of need another. I'll link a few making the case against:

The notion that students should be allowed to carry guns on a college campus is a bad idea. No, it is a really bad idea.

(snip)

Why in the world do students needs guns to go to school? They don’t. Students are at a university to learn. The yahoos we let loose on campus with guns are a far bigger threat to the student body than the isolated nut case that goes over the deep end. And there is no guarantee that these “licensed” gunmen (and, we suppose, gunwomen) that might defend themselves or others can hit what they are aiming at.

Our View: Guns on campus goes beyond being a bad idea - East Valley Tribune: Opinion

The theory is that armed students or teachers could take down a shooter and not hit bystanders, instead. But being able to react quickly and aim accurately in such a high-pressure, high-risk situation requires extensive and ongoing training. Police officers, who also have body armor, are required to get it.

The average person isn't. The training requirement for a concealed-weapon permit can be met with a one-time course on hunting safety.

The notion of a deterrent effect, since anyone on campus might be armed, ignores the bloody reality. The angry, unbalanced individuals who go on rampages aren't calculating whether they can get away with carnage.

Universities and colleges, meanwhile, are concerned about a wide range of potential problems. Guns could be easily stolen or lost, getting into the hands of people with darker motives than the owner.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...arms-campus.html?nclick_check=1#ixzz2JISqZqHl

PHOENIX -- University police chiefs from around Arizona are lobbying against the movement to allow guns on college campuses.

(snip)

"More guns does not equate to a safer campus," said ASU Police Chief John Pickens.

"I have a great appreciation for guns, but I've seen tragedies occur when people didn't handle guns properly, or made bad decisions about the use of firearms," said UA Police Chief Anthony Daykin.

"You're going to have accidents where people are going to get hurt," said NAU Police Chief Gregory Fowler. "You add [guns] to that mix of youth, alcohol, drugs, and it's a terrible mix with handguns."

University police chiefs lobby against guns on campus | azfamily.com Phoenix

And no, guns lowering crime is a fallacy. The data used is based on causal relationship errors. Anyone accepting that argument has been fooled by the logical error presented to them.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

Not really, no. There is simply no place for guns on campus by students or faculty (I know those people, trust me). Youth is but one reason. Lack of need another.
How can you say there's a lack of need in a thread about a criminal shooting at a collage?

Why in the world do students needs guns to go to school?
Some low-life may try to shoot you for simply bumping into him.

The training requirement for a concealed-weapon permit can be met with a one-time course on hunting safety.
This leads back to my question about military veteran students, who have substantially more training and experience with firearms than do most cops. If training were your concern then you would favor military veteran students over cops. If age were your concern then you would favor non-traditional students over a cop in their early 20s. If we stand a 34 y/o military veteran next to a 22 y/o cop, your criteria on age and training dictate that you wold favor the veteran over the cop.

You are not staying within your own criteria, which means age and training are not your true criteria.

The angry, unbalanced individuals who go on rampages aren't calculating whether they can get away with carnage.
This thread isn't about a rampage. This thread is about one shooting, one target.

And no, guns lowering crime is a fallacy.
It's true that the economy, family cohesion and making prison a place you don't want to be have a greater effect on the crime rate than does gun ownership. However, when we control for these, the armed population will always have a lower crime rate than the unarmed population. This is as proven as gravity.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

How can you say there's a lack of need in a thread about a criminal shooting at a collage?

Because these are very rare. And remember, this was someone carrying. Not a nut. Not a robbery. But a carrier who had an altercation.

Some low-life may try to shoot you for simply bumping into him.

And you think you can get your gun out before him, shoot him, and not hit anyone else? As it was someone carrying, wouldn't we likely have more carrying guns who might shoot someone for bumping into them? What at the odds?

This leads back to my question about military veteran students, who have substantially more training and experience with firearms than do most cops. If training were your concern then you would favor military veteran students over cops. If age were your concern then you would favor non-traditional students over a cop in their early 20s. If we stand a 34 y/o military veteran next to a 22 y/o cop, your criteria on age and training dictate that you wold favor the veteran over the cop.

There's an exception to everything. But the likelihood is we will have people like this shooter, or inexperienced, than we would have have what you describe. Considering how rare school shootings are, allowing them on campus wouold likely add more problems than prevent them.

You are not staying within your own criteria, which means age and training are not your true criteria.

It's one criteria. Nothing more.

This thread isn't about a rampage. This thread is about one shooting, one target.

I think it works for the single shooter as well. Only reasonable people, those who would shoot to start with, consider others.


It's true that the economy, family cohesion and making prison a place you don't want to be have a greater effect on the crime rate than does gun ownership. However, when we control for these, the armed population will always have a lower crime rate than the unarmed population. This is as proven as gravity.

No, they really don't. There are even factors beyond what you list. Again, it is a fallacy. Just as when the other says, "see, we passed the Brady Bill and crime went down." You're doing the same thing.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

\That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity. Claims to the contrery are lies. Also, you are still including in your concern a demogrsphic which the policy change doesn't apply to. That allone invalidates you position.

Since you are arguing that correlation = causality, how do you explain the fact that crime has dropped while the rate of gun ownership has dropped?
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

Since you are arguing that correlation = causality, how do you explain the fact that crime has dropped while the rate of gun ownership has dropped?
Your statement has a false premise. Please revise and redress.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

I see no false premise. Could you idenitify this premise and explain why it's false
Certainly:
Since you are arguing that correlation = causality, how do you explain the fact that crime has dropped while the rate of gun ownership has dropped?
I don't make that argument.

Please correct your error and redress your question.
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

Certainly:

I don't make that argument.

Please correct your error and redress your question.

You said
That guns lower crime is as proven as gravity.

There is no such proof, and the only "evidence" of this is based on the fallacy that correlation = causation

However, if you have definitive proof that doesn't rely on the c=c fallacy, I'd like to see it
 
Re: Lone Star College Shooting

You said


There is no such proof, and the only "evidence" of this is based on the fallacy that correlation = causation

However, if you have definitive proof that doesn't rely on the c=c fallacy, I'd like to see it
Did you notice how you just excluded anything anyone could every post, just before you feigned open-mindedness?

You betray yourself.
 
Back
Top Bottom