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Obama unveils $500 million gun violence package

Catawba said:
You missed the point - that it is the same party that almost unanimously voted for the $3 trillion dollar needless war in Iraq are the same ones saying we shouldn't spend $500 million to reduce the gun violence in our own country.
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Again.....when did local and State issues become a Federal matter? How is the Federal Government the answer to Crime? What measures could have Stopped Sandy Hook From Happening? How is the Federal government the Solution?
 
MMC said:
Again.....when did local and State issues become a Federal matter? How is the Federal Government the answer to Crime? What measures could have Stopped Sandy Hook From Happening? How is the Federal government the Solution?
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Well you see, by taking the time to educate criminals, they will learn it is illegal to bring guns into "Gun Free Zones" and killing people is wrong.
 
hawke812 said:
Well you see, by taking the time to educate criminals, they will learn it is illegal to bring guns into "Gun Free Zones" and killing people is wrong.
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Okay, but how is it a the Feds Job to put more Local Police on the Job in States?
 
MMC said:
Again.....when did local and State issues become a Federal matter? How is the Federal Government the answer to Crime? What measures could have Stopped Sandy Hook From Happening? How is the Federal government the Solution?
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If the ban had stayed in effect from 1994, it is unlikely the shooter's mother would have had an AR-15 and HCMs for her kid to take and use in gaining entrance to the school and slaughtering that whole classroom of kids and the educators at Sandy Hook.

The federal government is the only body that can require a federal ban in all states and require background check for all gun sales in all the states. The welfare of US citizens are one of the chief responsibilities of the federal government. I am very happy to see a president finally providing leadership to reduce gun violence in this country!
 
Catawba said:
If the ban had stayed in effect from 1994, it is unlikely the shooter's mother would have had an AR-15 and HCMs for her kid to take and use in gaining entrance to the school and slaughtering that whole classroom of kids and the educators at Sandy Hook.

The federal government is the only body that can require a federal ban in all states and require background check for all gun sales in all the states. The welfare of US citizens are one of the chief responsibilities of the federal government. I am very happy to see a president finally providing leadership to reduce gun violence in this country!
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The AR15 is a Semi Automatic so the type of weapon he used would not come into play, which would not have stopped his mother from buying any other semi automatic weapons legally.....Again how is it the job of the Fed to put more local police on the Job?
rolleyes.png
 
MMC said:
The AR15 is a Semi Automatic so the type of weapon he used would not come into play, which would not have stopped his mother from buying any other semi automatic weapons legally.....Again how is it the job of the Fed to put more local police on the Job?
rolleyes.png
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You guys need to get your story together. Do you think the AR-15s and the high capacity magazines have only cosmetic differences from other guns legally available, or do they represent a unique weapon vital to personal defense by law abiding citizens that no other gun can fulfill?

Btw, one of the most important responsibilities of the federal government is to promote the general welfare of its citizens.
 
We'd do a lot better to spend that money on more armed security at schools.
 
Goshin said:
We'd do a lot better to spend that money on more armed security at schools.
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Part of that money is going to districts to help improve security at their schools.
 
Catawba said:
You guys need to get your story together. Do you think the AR-15s and the high capacity magazines have only cosmetic differences from other guns legally available, or do they represent a unique weapon vital to personal defense by law abiding citizens that no other gun can fulfill?

Btw, one of the most important responsibilities of the federal government is to promote the general welfare of its citizens.
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What story do we need to put together on whether it is the Feds job to put more Local Cops on the Streets? So where did you see that part in the Constitution where it says that Government can infringe with choice?
 
Catawba said:
Part of that money is going to states to help improve security at their schools.
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Yeah, that's true, I recall hearing that. My State is already voting on a plan to put at least one armed police officer in every school. The State Supe of schools is also talking about allowing appropriately trained staff with CWP to carry as well, but that will take legislative approval I think.
 
MMC said:
What story do we need to put together on whether it is the Feds job to put more Local Cops on the Streets? So where did you see that part in the Constitution where it says that Government can infringe with choice?
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The 1994 ban was never ruled to be an infringement of the Constitution, nor was there ever a single legal challenge on that basis during the entire decade it was in effect.
 
Catawba said:
If the ban had stayed in effect from 1994, it is unlikely the shooter's mother would have had an AR-15 and HCMs for her kid to take and use in gaining entrance to the school and slaughtering that whole classroom of kids and the educators at Sandy Hook.

The federal government is the only body that can require a federal ban in all states and require background check for all gun sales in all the states. The welfare of US citizens are one of the chief responsibilities of the federal government. I am very happy to see a president finally providing leadership to reduce gun violence in this country!
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Not sure it would have mattered if he had the AR or not considering he was packing other pistols with him that were never on the initial ban. The jury is still out on whether the AR was ever in the school to begin with. Last I heard it was still in the car parked outside in front of the school during the attack. I am not saying that is a fact just saying that is the last I heard of it.

Do you have any reports that she purchased the AR before or after the ban? I ask because I have not heard either way. Would it have made any difference to you that he killed them with the pistols instead of the AR?
 
MMC said:
Okay, but how is it a the Feds Job to put more Local Police on the Job in States?
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No no, it's the feds job to declare a place "Gun Free". It is the responsibility of the criminal to obey the law.
 
Dirt Racer said:
Not sure it would have mattered if he had the AR or not considering he was packing other pistols with him that were never on the initial ban. The jury is still out on whether the AR was ever in the school to begin with. Last I heard it was still in the car parked outside in front of the school during the attack. I am not saying that is a fact just saying that is the last I heard of it.
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"But the AR-15 style rifle — the most popular rifle in America, according to gun dealers — was also the weapon of choice for Adam Lanza, who the police said used one made by Bushmaster on Friday to kill 20 young children and six adults in an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., in a massacre that has horrified the nation.

The increasing appearance of the rifle in rampage killings — an AR-15 was used by James E. Holmes, who is accused of opening fire and killing 12 people in a movie theater in Colorado in July, police officials say, and by Jacob Roberts, who shot and killed two people and then took his own life in a shopping mall last week near Portland, Ore. — has rekindled the debate about its availability and its appeal to killers bent on mass slaughter."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/u...yle-rifle-in-newtown.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



Do you have any reports that she purchased the AR before or after the ban? I ask because I have not heard either way. Would it have made any difference to you that he killed them with the pistols instead of the AR?
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Given that Lanza's mother was 52 when her son killed her, she would have had to have been younger than 18 to have bought it before the 1994 ban. I think you would agree that is very unlikely.

Shootings with pistols do not usually have the high numbers of kills that are usual by guns with high capacity magazines.
 
Goshin said:
Yeah, that's true, I recall hearing that. My State is already voting on a plan to put at least one armed police officer in every school. The State Supe of schools is also talking about allowing appropriately trained staff with CWP to carry as well, but that will take legislative approval I think.
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What good would one armed police officer do. Or even a few administrators armed. Most schools are pretty spread out. You'd have to have one or two in every hall all day or every teacher armed. When i think back to my school days I can remember some teachers that I wouldn't trust with a water gun much less a real gun.
 
Catawba said:
"But the AR-15 style rifle — the most popular rifle in America, according to gun dealers — was also the weapon of choice for Adam Lanza, who the police said used one made by Bushmaster on Friday to kill 20 young children and six adults in an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., in a massacre that has horrified the nation.

The increasing appearance of the rifle in rampage killings — an AR-15 was used by James E. Holmes, who is accused of opening fire and killing 12 people in a movie theater in Colorado in July, police officials say, and by Jacob Roberts, who shot and killed two people and then took his own life in a shopping mall last week near Portland, Ore. — has rekindled the debate about its availability and its appeal to killers bent on mass slaughter."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/u...yle-rifle-in-newtown.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0







Given that Lanza's mother was 52 when her son killed her, she would have had to have been younger than 18 to have bought it before the 1994 ban. I think you would agree that is very unlikely.

Depending on the month she was born she would have been about 33 years old in 1994. Well old enough to purchase the rifle. Since she was a collector it is also likely she was interested in that rifle during that time.

Shootings with pistols do not usually have the high numbers of kills that are usual by guns with high capacity magazines.
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With 4 pistols he easily could have done just as much damage. Below is a Copy & Paste from an article I found from The Blaze.


“We tracked 62 mass shootings wherein 5 or more people were either shot or killed from the early 1980’s to now; 41 times pistols were used, 12 times shotguns or some type of hunting-styled rifle was used, and 9 times semi-automatic rifles were used (14 percent),” Hunter told The Blaze.

“Of the 62 incidents that we were able to track, 42 of the shooters had some kind of mental illness or mental illness history of some kind, 16 of the shooters had unknown or unclear history of mental illness, and only 4 of the shooters had no mental illness history.
 
Catawba said:
"But the AR-15 style rifle — the most popular rifle in America, according to gun dealers — was also the weapon of choice for Adam Lanza, who the police said used one made by Bushmaster on Friday to kill 20 young children and six adults in an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., in a massacre that has horrified the nation.

The increasing appearance of the rifle in rampage killings — an AR-15 was used by James E. Holmes, who is accused of opening fire and killing 12 people in a movie theater in Colorado in July, police officials say, and by Jacob Roberts, who shot and killed two people and then took his own life in a shopping mall last week near Portland, Ore. — has rekindled the debate about its availability and its appeal to killers bent on mass slaughter."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/u...yle-rifle-in-newtown.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0





Given that Lanza's mother was 52 when her son killed her, she would have had to have been younger than 18 to have bought it before the 1994 ban. I think you would agree that is very unlikely.

Shootings with pistols do not usually have the high numbers of kills that are usual by guns with high capacity magazines.
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In 1994 Lanza's mother would have been around 33 years old. Well old enough to purchase an AR-15. And being she was a Collector it's also likely she was interested in those rifles since they are the most popular.
 
EarlzP said:
All kinds of hoops? Is that what you would consider it if the weapon you sold was used to kill you or yours or in the commission of a crime? My damned good reason is that the world does not stop at the Arizona border that weapon you sold to some one could be used to kill me or mine in NJ.
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Soooo....your rationale is that since you're scared of guns nobody should have one? That really doesn't quite live up to the standard of "imminent danger".
 
Lutherf said:
by Soooo....your rationale is that since you're scared of guns nobody should have one? That really doesn't quite live up to the standard of "imminent danger".
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A weapon is an inanimate object it's not until it gets into the wrong hands that it becomes a danger to society, So no I am not afraid of guns I am concerned with how easy it is for a weapon to get into the hands of someone who should not have access to it or someone like you who apparently does not care enough to make sure if you sell a weapon you have done all that you can do to ensure that the person you are selling it to is not a criminal or a person who has mental issues.
 
Dirt Racer said:
With 4 pistols he easily could have done just as much damage. Below is a Copy & Paste from an article I found from The Blaze.


“We tracked 62 mass shootings wherein 5 or more people were either shot or killed from the early 1980’s to now; 41 times pistols were used, 12 times shotguns or some type of hunting-styled rifle was used, and 9 times semi-automatic rifles were used (14 percent),” Hunter told The Blaze.

“Of the 62 incidents that we were able to track, 42 of the shooters had some kind of mental illness or mental illness history of some kind, 16 of the shooters had unknown or unclear history of mental illness, and only 4 of the shooters had no mental illness history.
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Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

"Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines."

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)
 
EarlzP said:
A weapon is an inanimate object it's not until it gets into the wrong hands that it becomes a danger to society, So no I am not afraid of guns I am concerned with how easy it is for a weapon to get into the hands of someone who should not have access to it or someone like you who apparently does not care enough to make sure if you sell a weapon you have done all that you can do to ensure that the person you are selling it to is not a criminal or a person who has mental issues.
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I try to act with reasonable prudence because it's unreasonable to assume that everyone is a closet psychopath.
 
Dirt Racer said:
In 1994 Lanza's mother would have been around 33 years old. Well old enough to purchase an AR-15. And being she was a Collector it's also likely she was interested in those rifles since they are the most popular.
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I did make a math error, you are correct she would have been 33 at the start of the 1994 ban. I still think it is very unlikely she purchased when she was younger than 33. You have any evidence she did?
 
Catawba said:
Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

"Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines."

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)
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My point was not to argue the High cap mag but the tool used in the assault. I don't feel the tool used was any more lethal than a high cap pistol.
 
Catawba said:
I did make a math error, you are correct she would have been 33 at the start of the 1994 ban. I still think it is very unlikely she purchased when she was younger than 33. You have any evidence she did?
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I am not convinced she wouldn't have purchased it her age. I could be wrong and have no evidence she did. I asked earlier if anyone knew but have not received a response. It is likely she did purchase after the ban was lifted. I still do not believe it would have made a difference considering he went in with enough pistol firepower to do the same job. He had pretty much all the time he needed considering no one was there to stop him. The only reason he did stop was because he took his own life.
 
Dirt Racer said:
With 4 pistols he easily could have done just as much damage. Below is a Copy & Paste from an article I found from The Blaze.


“We tracked 62 mass shootings wherein 5 or more people were either shot or killed from the early 1980’s to now; 41 times pistols were used, 12 times shotguns or some type of hunting-styled rifle was used, and 9 times semi-automatic rifles were used (14 percent),” Hunter told The Blaze.

“Of the 62 incidents that we were able to track, 42 of the shooters had some kind of mental illness or mental illness history of some kind, 16 of the shooters had unknown or unclear history of mental illness, and only 4 of the shooters had no mental illness history.
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The difference between 5 deaths and the 27 at Newtown is the difference between pistols and assault weapons. They allow much higher kill totals. That's why they are used by the military....and mass murderers. Since 2000 it seems to be near 100% of them have picked the AR-15, I guess the "word" is out.
 
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