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Obama unveils $500 million gun violence package

Dirt Racer said:
My point was not to argue the High cap mag but the tool used in the assault. I don't feel the tool used was any more lethal than a high cap pistol.
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The tool used had a HCM. That is the main target of the ban, HCMs and the guns that use them. That includes high cap pistols.

"The proposed legislation will ban the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of over 100 specific firearms. Also banned will be certain named semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can use a detachable magazine, as well as fixed magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds."

Proposed Assault Weapon Ban Has Grandfather Clause: No Gun Seizure
 
Step 1. Conflate words until they mean what you want them to mean. "Violence" becomes "Gun Violence PROBLEM." Use children to inflict the most dire implications.
Step 2. Arbitrarily pull a number out of your ass, put a dollar sign in front of it, and tell everyone this is the amount of money it takes to not-murder your kids.
Step 3. Preemptively blame Republicans for not going along with it. Threaten them, and then remind everyone of the children again.
Step 4. ???
Step 5. PROFIT!!!
 
Kal'Stang said:
Check your math. She was 33 when the 1994 ban was put into place.
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Yep, yep, already admitted I made a math error above. But that is moot point since I discovered later she bought the guns since 2010.
 
Catawba said:
"But the AR-15 style rifle — the most popular rifle in America, according to gun dealers — was also the weapon of choice for Adam Lanza, who the police said used one made by Bushmaster on Friday to kill 20 young children and six adults in an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., in a massacre that has horrified the nation.

The increasing appearance of the rifle in rampage killings — an AR-15 was used by James E. Holmes, who is accused of opening fire and killing 12 people in a movie theater in Colorado in July, police officials say, and by Jacob Roberts, who shot and killed two people and then took his own life in a shopping mall last week near Portland, Ore. — has rekindled the debate about its availability and its appeal to killers bent on mass slaughter."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/u...yle-rifle-in-newtown.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0





Given that Lanza's mother was 52 when her son killed her, she would have had to have been younger than 18 to have bought it before the 1994 ban. I think you would agree that is very unlikely.

Shootings with pistols do not usually have the high numbers of kills that are usual by guns with high capacity magazines.
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Hows is that with 9mm clips with 16 in the clip and one in the chamber.Haven't been travelin down those Neighborhoods of Chicago much have ya? How fast do you think a mad-man takes to reload to the additional 16 totaling 32 rounds? Mins or seconds? Does it just matter the kills or do you think it matters with those that get shot by an individual that the Federal Government cannot do anything to stop that individual from committing an act of armed violence?
 
Catawba said:
Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)

"Mass shootings are a unique feature of American life which have occurred consistently throughout history in every region of the country. The increased lethality of such incidents is made possible by the use of large capacity ammunition magazines (defined as more than 10-rounds) which enable a shooter to rapidly fire off as many as 100-rounds without having to reload the firearm. Designed for military use to kill greater numbers of people more effectively, large capacity ammunition magazines have facilitated some of the worst mass murders ever committed in the United States. As these incidents occur in every region of the country, restricting civilian access to these weapons is not a state specific problem. The federal government needs to take action to protect all Americans by reinstating the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines.

This database provides an overview of significant mass shooting incidents in America (defined by the FBI as four or more victims killed), all of which involved large capacity ammunition magazines."

Citizens Crime Commission of New York City - Mass Shooting Incidents in America (1984-2012)
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There is also an implication that we are talking about murder – not accidental death or suicide. Half of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides; that percentage is considerably less for those under age 20.
The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

How many deaths are we talking about?

Unintentional Injury Deaths / Homicides / Suicides by Firearm (2010)
Age 1-4 : 68 total; 25 firearm injury deaths; 43 homicides
Age 5-9 : 69 total; 11 firearm injury deaths; 58 homicides
Age 10-14 : 213 total; 26 firearm injury deaths; 107 homicides; 80 suicides
Age 15-19 : 2,234 total; 72 firearm injury deaths; 1,554 homicides; 668 suicides

There is also an implication that we are talking about murder – not accidental death or suicide. Half of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides; that percentage is considerably less for those under age 20.
The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

How many deaths are we talking about?

Unintentional Injury Deaths / Homicides / Suicides by Firearm (2010)
Age 1-4 : 68 total; 25 firearm injury deaths; 43 homicides
Age 5-9 : 69 total; 11 firearm injury deaths; 58 homicides
Age 10-14 : 213 total; 26 firearm injury deaths; 107 homicides; 80 suicides
Age 15-19 : 2,234 total; 72 firearm injury deaths; 1,554 homicides; 668 suicides

The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

Top two causes of death by unintentional injury (2010)
Age 1-4 : 1,110 total; 436 drownings, 343 motor vehicle accidents
Age 5-9 : 1,394 total; 343 motor vehicle accidents, 134 drownings
Age 10-14 : 885 total; 452 motor vehicle accidents, 117 drownings
Age 15-19 : 4,537 total; 2,895 motor vehicle accidents, 744 poisonings

Top two causes of death by homicide (2010)
Age 1-4 : 385 total; 163 unspecified; 84 other, classifiable
Age 5-9 : 111 total; 58 firearm; 13 unspecified
Age 10-14 : 150 total; 107 firearm; 16 cut/pierce
Age 15-19 : 1,832 total; 1,554 firearm; 147 cut/pierce

Top two causes of death by suicide (2010)
Age 10-14 : 267 total; 168, suffocation; 60 firearm
Age 15-19 : 1,659 total; 752, suffocation; 668 firearm

The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

Read more at Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice


Not to mention that crime has gone down and that is despite the FBI and their all-time high of Confiscation of weapons.
 
iguanaman said:
The difference between 5 deaths and the 27 at Newtown is the difference between pistols and assault weapons. They allow much higher kill totals. That's why they are used by the military....and mass murderers. Since 2000 it seems to be near 100% of them have picked the AR-15, I guess the "word" is out.
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Th report lists 5 or more deaths per shooting. Now you may be right that Newton had a higher kill total, but the last report I heard and saw was that the AR-15 was still in the car. So were their two AR-15's or did he not take it in the school? I am not trying to create conspiracies here, I really don't know.
 
Catawba said:
Found the answer to our question, looks like I was right - "The three guns carried by the gunman in the bloody Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting were all purchased by his mother since 2010, law enforcement sources told NBC News on Tuesday."

Authorities establish timeline of gun purchases in Connecticut school shooting - Open Channel
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Good find. I was wrong. And you are correct in saying that had the ban stayed in place he would not have been able to use that weapon. Given his state of mind I am certain he would have taken the shotgun that they found in the car and both handguns instead. We may have lost a few less but the massacre still would have taken place.
 
MMC said:
Hows is that with 9mm clips with 16 in the clip and one in the chamber.Haven't been travelin down those Neighborhoods of Chicago much have ya? How fast do you think a mad-man takes to reload to the additional 16 totaling 32 rounds? Mins or seconds? Does it just matter the kills or do you think it matters with those that get shot by an individual that the Federal Government cannot do anything to stop that individual from committing an act of armed violence?
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A 9mm with 16 in the clip would be a high capacity. The task force doesn't claim their proposals will stop every death. There purpose is to reduce gun violence, especially the number of kills in mass murder events that have been carried out so frequently with high capacity magazines.
 
MMC said:
There is also an implication that we are talking about murder – not accidental death or suicide. Half of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides; that percentage is considerably less for those under age 20.
The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

How many deaths are we talking about?

Unintentional Injury Deaths / Homicides / Suicides by Firearm (2010)
Age 1-4 : 68 total; 25 firearm injury deaths; 43 homicides
Age 5-9 : 69 total; 11 firearm injury deaths; 58 homicides
Age 10-14 : 213 total; 26 firearm injury deaths; 107 homicides; 80 suicides
Age 15-19 : 2,234 total; 72 firearm injury deaths; 1,554 homicides; 668 suicides

There is also an implication that we are talking about murder – not accidental death or suicide. Half of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides; that percentage is considerably less for those under age 20.
The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

How many deaths are we talking about?

Unintentional Injury Deaths / Homicides / Suicides by Firearm (2010)
Age 1-4 : 68 total; 25 firearm injury deaths; 43 homicides
Age 5-9 : 69 total; 11 firearm injury deaths; 58 homicides
Age 10-14 : 213 total; 26 firearm injury deaths; 107 homicides; 80 suicides
Age 15-19 : 2,234 total; 72 firearm injury deaths; 1,554 homicides; 668 suicides

The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

Top two causes of death by unintentional injury (2010)
Age 1-4 : 1,110 total; 436 drownings, 343 motor vehicle accidents
Age 5-9 : 1,394 total; 343 motor vehicle accidents, 134 drownings
Age 10-14 : 885 total; 452 motor vehicle accidents, 117 drownings
Age 15-19 : 4,537 total; 2,895 motor vehicle accidents, 744 poisonings

Top two causes of death by homicide (2010)
Age 1-4 : 385 total; 163 unspecified; 84 other, classifiable
Age 5-9 : 111 total; 58 firearm; 13 unspecified
Age 10-14 : 150 total; 107 firearm; 16 cut/pierce
Age 15-19 : 1,832 total; 1,554 firearm; 147 cut/pierce

Top two causes of death by suicide (2010)
Age 10-14 : 267 total; 168, suffocation; 60 firearm
Age 15-19 : 1,659 total; 752, suffocation; 668 firearm

The Moderate Voice (Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice)

Read more at Meme-Busting: Do 85% of the children who die from gun violence live in the US? | The Moderate Voice


Not to mention that crime has gone down and that is despite the FBI and their all-time high of Confiscation of weapons.
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That has nothing to do with the post you responded to!
 
Dirt Racer said:
Good find. I was wrong. And you are correct in saying that had the ban stayed in place he would not have been able to use that weapon. Given his state of mind I am certain he would have taken the shotgun that they found in the car and both handguns instead. We may have lost a few less but the massacre still would have taken place.
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Losing a few less per each event is the purpose of the ban.
 
Catawba said:
Losing a few less per each event is the purpose of the ban.
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So the goal here is to decrease the "losses per event" by a few, meaning they are still going to happen and be pretty much the same. The cost of this to the law abiding normal gun owner is a lot of freedom. Why is this a good idea again?

Shouldn't we be approaching these "events" in a more productive manner? Like say improving the mental health of the people that flip out and go on these rampages? The way I see it, even if we could somehow disarm the entire country, the psychos will just switch to something else when they want to go kill a bunch of people on their way out.

Why are we trying to fix a broken engine by changing the windshield?
 
Lutherf said:
I try to act with reasonable prudence because it's unreasonable to assume that everyone is a closet psychopath.
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If you have or will sell a weapon will you or won't you perform a background check? Do you really think that is to much to ask?
 
EarlzP said:
If you have or will sell a weapon will you or won't you perform a background check? Do you really think that is to much to ask?
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If and when I sell a firearm it is to someone that I can reasonably trust to not be a psycho so no, I won't do a background check. If I have a concern I simply won't make the deal.
 
I recently have been getting into the whole gun control debate, especially after seeing the sandy hook conspiracies, and I stumbled across this:

Porn Star Jessie Rogers talks gun control and even has a video of her shooting an AR 15 and interviewing what appears to be some sort of firearms expert. Regardless, I think its pretty cool that there are some females out there, especially porn stars lol, using their beauty and fame for a good cause, thats what I love to see! God Bless America!
 
505 said:
So the goal here is to decrease the "losses per event" by a few, meaning they are still going to happen and be pretty much the same. The cost of this to the law abiding normal gun owner is a lot of freedom. Why is this a good idea again?

Shouldn't we be approaching these "events" in a more productive manner? Like say improving the mental health of the people that flip out and go on these rampages? The way I see it, even if we could somehow disarm the entire country, the psychos will just switch to something else when they want to go kill a bunch of people on their way out.
Click to expand...

I think prevention should be the main goal, no matter what we do a few people will slip through the cracks

1- Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all purchases and sales
2-safe entries and exits to all public buildings
A-metal detectors
B-trained experienced armed guards
3-Building lock downs
a-limit access if a shooting or other incident occurs

None of the 3 actions listed above would infringe on the 2nd amendment
The costs associated could be held to a minimum if available on duty police or qualified national guard personnel are used

i don't see why every thing has to be rocket science and create a war between political parties if we all have the same goals of protecting children and adults from deranged or suicidal mass killers. Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all sales and purchases should help keep some of the weapons out of the hands of criminals


Why are we trying to fix a broken engine by changing the windshield?
 
Lutherf said:
If and when I sell a firearm it is to someone that I can reasonably trust to not be a psycho so no, I won't do a background check. If I have a concern I simply won't make the deal.
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Sorry I did not realize that you had a degree in psychology, just my opinion but you appear not to give a s--t
 
EarlzP said:
I think prevention should be the main goal, no matter what we do a few people will slip through the cracks

1- Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all purchases and sales
2-safe entries and exits to all public buildings
A-metal detectors
B-trained experienced armed guards
3-Building lock downs
a-limit access if a shooting or other incident occurs

None of the 3 actions listed above would infringe on the 2nd amendment
The costs associated could be held to a minimum if available on duty police or qualified national guard personnel are used

i don't see why every thing has to be rocket science and create a war between political parties if we all have the same goals of protecting children and adults from deranged or suicidal mass killers. Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all sales and purchases should help keep some of the weapons out of the hands of criminals
Click to expand...

That sounds way better to me. The solutions make sense and would directly have an effect on the actual problems.
 
EarlzP said:
Sorry I did not realize that you had a degree in psychology, just my opinion but you appear not to give a s--t
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It is neither my job nor my responsibility to formally evaluate someone's mental condition. I AM required to exercise due diligence when conducting a firearms transaction and I fulfill that obligation. Frankly, it's none of my business what someone's personal history is and it would be improper for me to make too much of an inquiry. In this nation we presume that people are innocent until they can be prove themselves not to be. Again and again and again, we are responsible for acting reasonably and it is entirely unreasonable to simply assume that someone is a psycho or a homicidal maniac.

Now, all that being said, I would NEVER sell, lend turn a blind eye to a firearms transaction where the purchaser appears to be intoxicated or otherwise irrational. The same applies to a transaction with someone whom I know or have a reasonable belief is prone to criminal violence.
 
Catawba said:
Losing a few less per each event is the purpose of the ban.
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Would it not be better to have armed security watch over our kids to prevent possibly only the death of the assailant? This ensures our kids are safe and our rights are not diminished.
 
Dirt Racer said:
Would it not be better to have armed security watch over our kids to prevent possibly only the death of the assailant? This ensures our kids are safe and our rights are not diminished.
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I meant to say only the assailant would be shot.
 
505 said:
So the goal here is to decrease the "losses per event" by a few, meaning they are still going to happen and be pretty much the same. The cost of this to the law abiding normal gun owner is a lot of freedom. Why is this a good idea again?

Shouldn't we be approaching these "events" in a more productive manner? Like say improving the mental health of the people that flip out and go on these rampages? The way I see it, even if we could somehow disarm the entire country, the psychos will just switch to something else when they want to go kill a bunch of people on their way out.

Why are we trying to fix a broken engine by changing the windshield?
Click to expand...


No court has ruled that an AW & HCM ban represents an infringement of the 2nd Amendment. And yes, reducing the number of kills in mass murders is absolutely worth our efforts. Improving access for mental health as well as incorporating that info into background checks for all gun sales are proposed and will also help. It will be harder for a whacked out ***** to kill large numbers of people by other methods. Many of them wouldn't be up to it.
 
Dirt Racer said:
Would it not be better to have armed security watch over our kids to prevent possibly only the death of the assailant? This ensures our kids are safe and our rights are not diminished.
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Studies show that more guns have not reduced gun deaths. The US has more guns than any country on the planet yet we have the most gun deaths of innocents. Dead people forfeit all their freedoms permanently. And there has been no court ruling that an AW and HCM ban restricts anyone's rights.
 
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