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Dozens held after Islamists attack Algerian gas field!!!![W:280]

Dr. Chuckles said:
1) you must be confusing me for someone else

2) I already outlined my views on radicalism, put it into context with fundamentalism, and indicated how I thought it was nowhere near a majority. Seriously, just read what you respond to.
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Damn man, you can't even stay consistent for an entire page.

Dr. Chuckles said:
actually i was very clear with my language: "But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it", which I supported with data.
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RabidAlpaca said:
Damn man, you can't even stay consistent for an entire page.
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did you actually take the time to read that second quote? If you did (don't worry, I know you didn't), you will notice that I outline that radicalism is distinct from fundamentalism (they are two different things. And that while radicalism represents a minority, the same might not be true of fundamentalism, which "does seem to represent a majority, or close to it"

Clearly if I feel radicalism=/=fundamentalism, then my posts on fundamentalism (which I see as possibly representing a majority, or close to it) would not be referring to my views on radicalism (which I see as a clear minority). Which is the assumption you made in your argument, and which is why your argument is wrong ...
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Man, I don't know what to say here. I enter the thread responding to someone, telling them that most muslims are in fact not violent and trying to destroy the west, at which point I'm labeled a leftist and the goons jump on me. When I confront the attackers, they say no one ever even implied that most muslims were violent.

I then restate my case, which was that a few radical terrorists don't represent a religion of 2 billion people, then the same people try to jump on and explain to me why the majority of islam is extremist in nature. I think it's time for you guys to grow some balls and stop beating around the bush. Own up to it, you believe that most muslims are radical.
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Man, it is really funny to see someone try and come into a written word, internet forum, where no one knows the others in the forum personally (as far as I know), yet claim to have such intuitive, perceptive powers as to know what is in the hearts, minds, and inner most thoughts of those that disagree with them. It really is a foolish undertaking....Best you drop the 'oh poor me' attitude, and like grant advised earlier, just stick to the topic. You are not equipped to analyze people you don't know, nor have a clue about.
 
Moderator's Warning:
There's too many personal comments going on in here aimed at other members and the thread has degenerated away from the original Topic. One warning only folks. Back on topic and cease with personal comments. Thanks.
 
Jetboogieman said:
No the point is... is it's about putting things into context.

Now I know that's hard for you because it requires critical thinking (yes I know you're going to cry ad hominem and play the victim).

One might have thought looking at Japanese atrocities during WW2 and their occupations of various Asian nations before that, that they were nothing but blood thirsty, sick rapists that didn't have an ounce of humanity in them...

Far more Japanese soldiers committed severe crimes against humanity than any Muslim terrorists today.

Now one of the most peaceful nations on Earth with a constitution that forbids armed aggression against another country.

The point is... and this will hopefully be my final word with you on this subject because you are extremely obtuse and talking to hateful people like you about Muslims and Islam is like smashing my head against the wall over and over again.

Is that you're extremely slimy on this subject, you spread fear, hatred, misinformation and when you're called on this you either deny it, play the victim or just continue like nothing happened.

I know that the Muslim world has issues, I oppose some of their nations treatment of women and I hope that it changes... but not all muslim nations are like this and it's actually in many cases more to do with longstanding cultural traditions in the region than it is the religion itself.

You go to Jordan and you won't find such oppression of Women as you might find in rural Iran or Pakistan.

Bah who am I kidding, I'm tired of typing because nothing is ever going to get through the shield of ignorance surrounding your brain.

You will continue to spread fear and lies.

You will continue to use dubious sources to make your points (often times it seems like you've googled for about 30 seconds before posting links).

And you will continue to be wrong.

We know who our enemy is... it's all peoples in this world who's intent is to use violence against the innocent, they come from all religions, all nations and they act of their own accord and they will be stopped... and we will not let people like you try to paint large numbers of people who happen to share the same faith with a broad brush because you don't have the critical thinking skills to see reality.
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Who is "we"? And could you put that into a scary skype version of electronically altered voice over please, it would have more effect.....heheheh
 
Jetboogieman said:
No the point is... is it's about putting things into context.
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Where is the context that applies today? The fact is that radical Islam has nothing to do with Christianity any more than it has to do with any other religion, or atheism or agnosticism for that matter. It stands alone.

One might have thought looking at Japanese atrocities during WW2 and their occupations of various Asian nations before that, that they were nothing but blood thirsty, sick rapists that didn't have an ounce of humanity in them...
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Yes, that thought was certainly there at the time.

Far more Japanese soldiers committed severe crimes against humanity than any Muslim terrorists today.
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And Communism killed even more. But what does that have to do with Christianity?

Now one of the most peaceful nations on Earth with a constitution that forbids armed aggression against another country.
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Yes, after a huge bomb was dropped on them. Are you advocating the same for Islamic countries?

The point is... and this will hopefully be my final word with you on this subject because you are extremely obtuse and talking to hateful people like you about Muslims and Islam is like smashing my head against the wall over and over again.
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It seems you've done a lot of smashing.

Is that you're extremely slimy on this subject, you spread fear, hatred, misinformation and when you're called on this you either deny it, play the victim or just continue like nothing happened.
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Haven't you heard of the new rule? Leftists must now use quotes.

I know that the Muslim world has issues,
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Issues? Yes, I suppose it has a few issues.

I oppose some of their nations treatment of women and I hope that it changes
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You oppose some of their treatment of women. Which would those be? And which treatments of women do you approve of? Anyway I think that is quite liberal of you to oppose some of those treatments.....
but not all muslim nations are like this and it's actually in many cases more to do with longstanding cultural traditions in the region than it is the religion itself.
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So not all Muslims are the same? That's an amazing insight.But some have cultural traditions that the modern world might find offensive but, in any case, it's not the fault of Islam. Understood.

You go to Jordan and you won't find such oppression of Women as you might find in rural Iran or Pakistan.
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How liberal of those Jordanians not to have as much oppression.. Why don't they lighten up a little in Iran and Pakistan so they can me more like the less oppressive Muslims?
Bah who am I kidding, I'm tired of typing because nothing is ever going to get through the shield of ignorance surrounding your brain.
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Not at all! You're convinced me that not all Muslims are terrorists and more of them should behave like Jordanians. Those are excellent points!

You will continue to spread fear and lies.
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Gee, Jetbogieman, I hope I haven't made you fearful or led you astray. Such was not my intention.

You will continue to use dubious sources to make your points (often times it seems like you've googled for about 30 seconds before posting links).
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If I ever use dubious sources you be sure to point them out to me, okay? As well as any untruths. You can always point to your undubious sources for clarification.

And you will continue to be wrong.
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Well, perhaps.

We know who our enemy is... it's all peoples in this world who's intent is to use violence against the innocent, they come from all religions, all nations and they act of their own accord and they will be stopped... and we will not let people like you try to paint large numbers of people who happen to share the same faith with a broad brush because you don't have the critical thinking skills to see reality
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.

Yes, you get out there and spread the word. People must learn the truth!

A friend of mine sells sandwich boards for people who have a message to tell. Perhaps I can get you a discount.
 
So much apologism. Let's just take 3 from the first few pages:
Deuce said:
Terrorist attacks are committed by people of all faiths, and by people who lack faith. (although I would suggest any terrorist's "faith" is superficial at best, seeing as how there is no holy book that condones terrorism)

In America we have "Christianists," I.E. Christians who want to impose their religious doctrine onto everyone through social or political means. Even violent means on occasion. I'm sure Islamists are in America too, but they wield no political power.

Are you ok with one but not the other?
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Lutherf said:
To be fair, not every Muslim is an extremist jihadi just like not every Christian is Eric Rudolph.
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Hideously apologetic, well into ignorance or PC whitewashing.

Muslim terror attacks, those committed in the Name of Islam, (not ordinary crime), are daily acts and Overwhelm in number those by any other religion, in fact ALL other religions combined.
Just the last 30 days:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
and just what was reported in the West/found by one website.
Anyone wanna try such for ANY other religion?

You can add up all your Christian abortion clinic bombers for 30 years and that's Not One average week of Islam.
The "we all have a few bad apples" is such an inappropriate attempt at Moral Equivalence it amounts to a Lie


Jetboogieman said:
Over the years this has been the crux.

Guys like Marsden and Grant won't openly say it but it's pretty obvious they have an intense dislike for muslims, they say things that pretty much spell out that they believe that even if most muslims aren't actively violent, most of them passively support the violence.
When you confront them on this though they will deny it.

So they think there's a muslim problem...
Then you ask "What's your solution"
and they freeze up.
Never... not once... even from the hardest of the hardcore muslim haters that used to be at DP NEVER have they answered that question...

Actually that's not true, one person did.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/religion-and-philosophy/74869-inside-mecca-13.html#post1058829959
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Another person who can't deal with the truth and has rarely participated in our intense Islam discussions here.. yet claims 'no one answers the question'.
I have Regularly in my many strings/posts on the topic.
ie, http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/54964-wanted-muslim-reformation-18.html#post1059214500
in fact, generally when I mention Manji, I'm talking about the solution: Reform Islam/Secular or Reformated Islam.
https://www.google.com/search?q=mbi...pw.r_qf.&fp=99bbb1d5e9938d35&biw=1280&bih=675
and when I Mention her, a practising Muslim reformer, it is oft to point out the General but pervasive literalist/violence problem using one quote as well as reform.

So does 'no one answer the question' or do we have someone Unqualified/Inexperienced in the matter, Mischaractering many previous discussions on DP, Most of which he was Never even in. (!)

Of course 'Secular Islam' would be considered apostasy, a death offense, by many Muslims.
So that reformers or critics live under the threat of death.
The most idiotic strawman in the debate is the profer "not all Muslims are terrorists". No kidding.
But a Majority to significant Minority of Muslims worldwide are literalists (islamists) who want ie, Sharia Law; including Death for Apostates, Amputation for Theft, punishmen for 'insulting Islam', etc.
See the Pew polls many of us who DO debate it regularly post. (Dr Chuckles, Gardener, me, etc)
Or check out who 'Moderate' Egypt (etc) elected when they were free to do so. (70% went for the Islamist Muslim brotherhood or even worse, Salafis in total)

The Problem with Islam is they are Much more literal as a percent of their religion than others, and literal to a book that is less compatible with Western values, and a book whose enemies, Christians and Jews, are still extant.
Islam IS Inordinately Literal, Intolerant, and Violent.
 
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mbig said:
Lutherf said:
To be fair, not every Muslim is an extremist jihadi just like not every Christian is Eric Rudolph.
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Hideously apologetic, well into ignorance or PC whitewashing.

Muslim terror attacks, those committed in the Name of Islam, (not ordinary crime), are daily acts and Overwhelm in number those by any other religion, in fact ALL other religions combined.
Just the last 30 days:
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
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I hesitated before posting this because...well....I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but as near as I can tell you are just plain out of your gourd on this.

20% of the world population is Muslim...1.5 billion or so. If they were all radicals who would rather strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of the town square we'd have probably noticed by now. But that doesn't happen and the reason it doesn't happen is, like I said, because hardly any Muslims are suicidal jihadi's. The ones that are make a lot of noise but to condemn all the practitioners of a given theology because some miniscule number of screwballs have latched on to the faith as a justification for their homicidal desires is ridiculously twisted.
 
Lutherf said:
I hesitated before posting this because...well....I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but as near as I can tell you are just plain out of your gourd on this.

20% of the world population is Muslim...1.5 billion or so. If they were all radicals who would rather strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of the town square we'd have probably noticed by now. But that doesn't happen and the reason it doesn't happen is, like I said, because hardly any Muslims are suicidal jihadi's. The ones that are make a lot of noise but to condemn all the practitioners of a given theology because some miniscule number of screwballs have latched on to the faith as a justification for their homicidal desires is ridiculously twisted.
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If you quoted me in Full instead of with a Dishonest short quote/Strawman you would see this WAS COVERED.

'Radical' is a nebulous term, that's why I used Literalist/Islamist.
You went on to use new word 'radical' as 'terrorist'.
Very few Muslims are 'terrorists', while AGAIN, a significant Minority to Majority are Literalists/Islamists who want Sharia Law, including Death for Apostates, Amputation for theft, Stoning for Adultery, etc.
Islam/Muslims are Inordinately Literalist, (fundamentalist), Intolerant, and Violent. No, Not 'all' nor are even most/many 'terrorists.'
Though the Overwhelming number of terrorism acts are committed By Muslims.
No answer I see to even the part/list you did quote.

I specifically parsed these words carefully and elaborated what they meant while you, specifically, and nonetheless spouted the Goofy Strawman, 'not all Muslims are terrorists', I dealt with in my last.

Your post was a travesty in of not reading, nor quoting, nor addressing, what was posted.
Even worse/more laughable, Jetboogieman couldn't even answer the part directed at his piece of Disingenuity, just 'liked' your post. Jetboogieman who Claimed 'no one could answer', when in fact I have many times, while he rarely even participated in many long-running Islam discussions here. What a Joke.
 
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Jetboogieman to Grant said:
No the point is... is it's about putting things into context.
Now I know that's hard for you because it requires critical thinking (yes I know you're going to cry ad hominem and play the victim).
One might have thought looking at Japanese atrocities during WW2 and their occupations of various Asian nations before that, that they were nothing but blood thirsty, sick rapists that didn't have an ounce of humanity in them...
Far more Japanese soldiers committed severe crimes against humanity than any Muslim terrorists today.
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We could also go back to the Crusades or Inquisition but we are talking about Today; and we are talking about in general, peacetime. Not non-analogous war.

Nonetheless, Link or coherent analysis for that claim?
For openers, I suggest you might want to look at the two modern Genocides in Sudan. East Timor, conflicts from Mauritania to Mindinao, ... Or that people are dying/being persecuted every day worldwide of Islam. Christians have been, in fact, are being Cleansed from the Middle East and other areas NOW.

Jetboogieman said:
The point is... and this will hopefully be my final word with you on this subject because you are extremely obtuse and talking to hateful people like you about Muslims and Islam is like smashing my head against the wall over and over again.
Is that you're extremely slimy on this subject, you spread fear, hatred, misinformation and when you're called on this you either deny it, play the victim or just continue like nothing happened.
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I would like if you could fairly and quantatively discuss Islam, it's scripture and acts, of today.

Jetboogierman said:
I know that the Muslim world has issues, I oppose some of their nations treatment of women and I hope that it changes... but not all muslim nations are like this and it's actually in many cases more to do with longstanding cultural traditions in the region than it is the religion itself.
You go to Jordan and you won't find such oppression of Women as you might find in rural Iran or Pakistan.
Bah who am I kidding, I'm tired of typing because nothing is ever going to get through the shield of ignorance surrounding your brain.
You will continue to spread fear and lies.
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Issues? The understatement of the last 50 years.

Jetboogeyman said:
You will continue to use dubious sources to make your points (often timsuote it seems like you've googled for about 30 seconds before posting links).
And you will continue to be wrong.
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Pew poll is dubious?
Gallup? ie, missed you in this long-runner on Islam: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html
Many other strings as well.
The 'Arab Spring' hasn't elected Islamists?

Jetboogeyman said:
We know who our enemy is... it's all peoples in this world who's intent is to use violence against the innocent, they come from all religions, all nations and they act of their own accord and they will be stopped... and we will not let people like you try to paint large numbers of people who happen to share the same faith with a broad brush because you don't have the critical thinking skills to see reality.
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Islam is Inordinately Literalist, Intolerant (persecutes religious minorities, women, gays, other sects, and neighbors), and Violent. Many examples posted and scores more for I have posted for Years previously.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Oh damn, I didn't realize that by saying that a few radical muslims doesn't make all muslims radical, I became a leftist. That's all I've said in this thread, and I've been attacked for it every step of the way.
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You dared disagree. So he lashed out with the worst insult he could think of.

Partisan tools are so much fun to poke.
 
rocket88 said:
You dared disagree. So he lashed out with the worst insult he could think of.

Partisan tools are so much fun to poke.
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I really fail to see how the post he quoted from me, or any post I have made in this thread, is attacking him. Also, I sourced my argument with data that actually supports my assertions, as opposed to empty accusations of bigotry.

I am also very comfortable with you disagreeing with me and telling me why I am wrong. But so far the only response I have seen is people simply ignoring the data and accusing people of bigotry
 
Lutherf said:
20% of the world population is Muslim...1.5 billion or so. If they were all radicals who would rather strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of the town square we'd have probably noticed by now. But that doesn't happen and the reason it doesn't happen is, like I said, because hardly any Muslims are suicidal jihadi's. The ones that are make a lot of noise but to condemn all the practitioners of a given theology because some miniscule number of screwballs have latched on to the faith as a justification for their homicidal desires is ridiculously twisted.
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I use radical/extremest to describe someone like the taliban who rides around happy beheading random strangers. I agree this guy represents a minority, but I've seen figures indicating that such individuals can make up 20+ % of the individuals in places like Pakistan. So they are hardly insignificant

I use fundamentalist to describe someone who advocates actual laws, and their enforcement, of things like executing people for infidelity, rape, and apostasy. So while it's a rather a perverted form of law and order, it doesn't have the revolution zeal and ordered chaos of groups like the Taliban.

And as you can see from the poll I posted earlier, the later is in no way insignificant and might even represent a majority in the islamic world. Though it is clear that in places like Egypt and Pakistan, they represent almost the entirety of the Islamic population
 
Lutherf said:
I hesitated before posting this because...well....I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but as near as I can tell you are just plain out of your gourd on this.

20% of the world population is Muslim...1.5 billion or so. If they were all radicals who would rather strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of the town square we'd have probably noticed by now. But that doesn't happen and the reason it doesn't happen is, like I said, because hardly any Muslims are suicidal jihadi's. The ones that are make a lot of noise but to condemn all the practitioners of a given theology because some miniscule number of screwballs have latched on to the faith as a justification for their homicidal desires is ridiculously twisted.
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Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
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I answered him completely.. Twice.
Are you are inferring I or anyone else here is trolling? Yes you are.
Because everyone on 'my side' is answering with facts/elaboration. How about you?
All you (and others) strawman-ed was the usual/tiring/inaccurate "someone said all ALL muslims are radicals/terrorists." Floated and shot down already.

You are welcome to respond (for him) instead of repeating his inaccurate/nonresponsive post and using it as a segue to insult.
I didn't call him Left or Right, so let's see if we can play ON TOPIC/factually instead of high-fiving a post that was inaccurate and then re-stuffed; the debate ended.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Run bro, while you can, the trolls are coming. You're about to be called a radical leftist because you don't believe all muslims are radicals.
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It happens.

Extremists are extremists no matter which end of the political spectrum they devolve from. The sad part of this is that I doubt that any of them understand that such a broad based stance on a given issue is exactly what leads to such things as assault weapon bans and other infringements on the rights of law abiding people. For them the mere prospect of a given action is enough to justify sanctions. It's an easy way out for people who find it difficult to differentiate between the individual the ideology.
 
Lutherf said:
It happens.

Extremists are extremists no matter which end of the political spectrum they devolve from. The sad part of this is that I doubt that any of them understand that such a broad based stance on a given issue is exactly what leads to such things as assault weapon bans and other infringements on the rights of law abiding people. For them the mere prospect of a given action is enough to justify sanctions. It's an easy way out for people who find it difficult to differentiate between the individual the ideology.
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Lutherf, did you take the time to read the survey I posted? Seems rather unfair to simply dismiss people as extremists without actually addressing what they say and the evidence it is based on.

Also, while I understand it's needlessly polorizing to caste the entirety of the Islamic world as some grand villian (which I made rather clear was NOT my argument), it also doesn't further anything by simply dismissing information we find uncomfortable.

And needless to say, acknowledging that there are very real issues in the Islamic world, beyond a fring element of radical extremists doesn't presuppose anything beyond it's mere existence as a fact, and not some supposed ideal solution you cooked up in your own head. As you assert above
 
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Dr. Chuckles said:
Lutherf, did you take the time to read the survey I posted? Seems rather unfair to simply dismiss people as extremists without actually addressing what they say and the evidence it is based on.

Also, while I understand it's needlessly polorizing to caste the entirety of the Islamic world as some grand villian (which I made rather clear was NOT my argument), it also doesn't further anything by simply dismissing information we find uncomfortable.

And needless to say, acknowledging that there are very real issues in the Islamic world, beyond a fring element of radical extremists doesn't presuppose anything beyond it's mere existence as a fact, and not some supposed ideal solution you cooked up in your own head. As you assert above
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I don't know where you came up with that survey but even if we assume that those numbers are accurate it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones. I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.

I absolutely acknowledge that extremism in Islam exists and impacts practitioners of the faith but that impact is FAR more exaggerated in theocratic states than it is in secular ones. That simple fact would indicate that the issue of extremism is much more a function of the state than it is the faith.

One must not forget that Islam, far more than with any of the other Abrahamic religions, tends to be tied to governance and it is government that provides the coercive power over the people.
 
Lutherf said:
I don't know where you came up with that survey but even if we assume that those numbers are accurate it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones. I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.
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1) The survey was done by PEW as part of their global attitudes project

2) "it still makes a clear distinction between Muslims in secular states and those in theocratic ones"

- what is the criticism here?

3) " I mean, think about it, even if you are a moderate, if your survey comes from your local Mullah who is politically connected are you going to give a straight answer or are you going to give the "right" answer just so that the goons don't come and rape your wife in the middle of the night.

-3 Some of the worst numbers on Apostasy came from Egypt while still under Mubarak, a fiercely secular regime. Secondly, the survey was conducted by PEW, an organization with a long regarded reputation of excellence in what they do. So I doubt anyone but trained professionals are administering them

Lutherf said:
I absolutely acknowledge that extremism in Islam exists and impacts practitioners of the faith but that impact is FAR more exaggerated in theocratic states than it is in secular ones.
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Egypt is and was a secular state at the time of the survey. That certainly could change in the near future, but if the arab spring has taught us anything it's that secular liberalism isn't exactly the most popular product on the arab street

Not to mention, you're ignoring that most of the secular states, with Islamic majorities, are only secular due to the forceful hand of their govt, as opposed to some popular movement born on the street.

Lutherf said:
That simple fact would indicate that the issue of extremism is much more a function of the state than it is the faith.
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Lutherf, Ignoring the factual issues with your argument, I never said Islam was the cause for the violence. Only that a majority, or close to it, support violent fundamentalism. Personally I think the issue has a number of underlying factors, from remnant affects of colonialism (see the article I posted earlier on the deobandi movement), to global politics and state suppression. But it would be foolish to dismiss the influence that islam plays here, as well, largely through the dominence of literalist interpretations and the view that Islam still has a central role to play in the political process.

But acknowledging either of those does not presuppose locking up someone simply because they are Muslim, namely because it acknowledge the issue is one of interpretation, and this interpretation isn't a monolithic system of thought within the religion and it's people.






Lutherf said:
One must not forget that Islam, far more than with any of the other Abrahamic religions, tends to be tied to governance and it is government that provides the coercive power over the people.
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I'm more than aware of the political nature of islam (I have a copy of war and peace within the laws iof Islam sitting right here on my desk) and nothing I wrote above ignores that. In fact, it's pretty central to my point
 
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j-mac said:
Your making the same mistake others have made this morning...I never said we need to go in and bomb the crap out of Lybia...That is a strawman. I too feel that surgical action is required, but tell me, what is being done? NOTHING! Are we going to aid France in Mali? The answer is NO.
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It didn't work out so well the last time we got involved in the mess that France made of their colony. (Viet Nam) When has USA involvement in any war actually helped or resolved anything since WWII?
 
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