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Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized

sangha said:
Because being blind and deaf need not mean being 100% isolated. I would prefer some effort be made to relieve their suffering before hitting them with the needle.
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j-mac said:
Because we still value life in society....Now I guess you can make all the emotion based arguments you care to, but I don't agree.
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But you're making choices for them.

They are adults. They alone know their plight and they alone know their misery.

Why can't THEY make their own choices?

That's the question? Not that you think more can or could be done.

Why can't an adult, make an intelligent and reasoned decision to live or not live without your supervision or approval?
 
Dragonfly said:
But you're making choices for them.

They are adults. They alone know their plight and they alone know their misery.

Why can't THEY make their own choices?

That's the question? Not that you think more can or could be done.

Why can't an adult, make an intelligent and reasoned decision to live or not live without your supervision or approval?
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Well, I guess ultimately they could, if they were to act on their own, without outside help in the act, and little could be done about it....But, when you bring in a medical doctor, who takes an oath to 'do no harm', then proceeds to facilitate harm to life, then there is the question of value of life.

If you want to off yourself, and do so without my knowledge, or help, then I would mourn the loss, if you ask me to help, I would say no.
 
Dragonfly said:
But you're making choices for them.

They are adults. They alone know their plight and they alone know their misery.

Why can't THEY make their own choices?

That's the question? Not that you think more can or could be done.

Why can't an adult, make an intelligent and reasoned decision to live or not live without your supervision or approval?
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For one thing, I think people should have the right to assisted suicide. However, I am concerned that the avalability of this will make it easier to not provide the means which would make their lives worth living.

For example, should an intelligent and rational person with a case of severe, but treatable, form of temporary depression be helped to commit suicide, or should they first be treated for their depression?

Should the 1st option for an elderly person who doesn't want their condition to create "a burden on their family" be assisted suicide, or should we provide support for this person so that they won't be a "burden"? What if that elderly person is wealthy, is not strong willed, and is being pressured to off themselves by their greedy relatives?
 
j-mac said:
Well, I guess ultimately they could, if they were to act on their own, without outside help in the act, and little could be done about it....But, when you bring in a medical doctor, who takes an oath to 'do no harm', then proceeds to facilitate harm to life, then there is the question of value of life.
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All depends on how you define the "value of life" doesn't it? Simply breathing, eating, and expelling waste isn't valuable. It's merely existing.



j-mac said:
If you want to off yourself, and do so without my knowledge, or help, then I would mourn the loss, if you ask me to help, I would say no.
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Fair enough.
 
sangha said:
For one thing, I think people should have the right to assisted suicide. However, I am concerned that the avalability of this will make it easier to not provide the means which would make their lives worth living.

For example, should an intelligent and rational person with a case of severe, but treatable, form of temporary depression be helped to commit suicide, or should they first be treated for their depression?

Should the 1st option for an elderly person who doesn't want their condition to create "a burden on their family" be assisted suicide, or should we provide support for this person so that they won't be a "burden"? What if that elderly person is wealthy, is not strong willed, and is being pressured to off themselves by their greedy relatives?
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Depression is quite a different animal.

We're not talking about depression here.
 
I don't personally support it, but its their decision. From the OP, its not clear if they were dying. We're they dying?
 
SheWolf said:
I don't personally support it, but its their decision. From the OP, its not clear if they were dying. We're they dying?
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No, they were not. Dutch law doesn't require that the person have a terminal condition (which is a condition in the US)
 
Tigger said:
So long as it was the two men who made the decision to terminate life, and not the doctor, I'm fine with it. My only problem is that the men should have been required to be the ones who administered the fatal action, not the doctor. If you want to kill yourself, fine; but don't put that weight onto anyone other than yourself.
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People with no medical training who try to commit suicide by themselves can bungle it and end up seriously injured or in a coma.

A doctor has the medical knowledge to make sure it's done as compassionately and painlessly as possible.
 
Dragonfly said:
Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized - Yahoo! News




Thoughts?


Should this kind of thing be "allowed" by a modern, intelligent, and caring society?
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A tragic story by any standard. Living one's life deaf in a silent world is harsh enough. And then learning it is about to go dark also.

From the nature of the article we can surmise the brothers were close and very dependant on each other. Electing death is sad but likely less sad than the alternative. Makes one really hope there is a heaven...
 
I think many of us would have never wanted the arrest of Jack Kevorkian.

It was their choice. It is not my choice what they want to do.

It is freedom to die willingly. If that is the case, then so be it.
 
My mother developed a Chronic pain disease calle RSD. It's damage to the nerves, causing severe pain from sensations to the affected area (and sometimes even without anything touching it). To give a bit of comprehension, on the McGill Pain Index (0-50) arthritis pain comes in at 18, a fracture is around 20, a bone bruise is around 22, chronic back pain is a 26, an amputation of a digit is 40, and RSD comes in at 42.

On a good day, when you ask her her pain on the normal "on a 1 to 10" scale she's somewhere between a 3 or 4 when she's just sitting down resting. On a bad day, she's got multiple hours with her face in a pillow crying and screaming while at a 9-10. On average, she goes around at about a 5-7.

The woman is stubborn and has a great tolerance and faith (her father died at 36. Her answer during the psych eval concerning suicide was she'd never because she wants to see her Father again and wouldn't get there if she killed herself). She pushes through and after 2+ years of it now is doing a LOT better than many of those with the disease.

But I see what it does to her, and while I can (and hopefully never will) truly understand the pain she's going through I can see it in her eyes and in her body and in her mood at times. I would never wish her to do it, I would never suggest her do it, I would never be happy with her doing it....but I would absolutely not condemn her nor fault her if she finally did, and while I'd be heart broken to lose my mother I'd be happy to know she was no longer living in agony every second of the day any longer.

I don't know what kind of life these twins were having, I don't know what led them to personaly decide to go through with this, but lest they were clearly of unsound mind I'm not here to judge and nor do I think there's a responsability on the part of society to force individuals to live and tell them they must deal with their agony in the name of socities consious.
 
j-mac said:
Because we still value life in society....Now I guess you can make all the emotion based arguments you care to, but I don't agree.
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So essentially you value Life over Individual Freedom. You value the Governments Decision over the Individuals Decision. You value the health of societies morality at the expense of disenfranchisement of an individual over their own life.

Well, I guess ultimately they could, if they were to act on their own, without outside help in the act, and little could be done about it....But, when you bring in a medical doctor, who takes an oath to 'do no harm', then proceeds to facilitate harm to life, then there is the question of value of life.
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Harm is potentially a tricky word in some of those cases, and even then that seems like it's more an issue of the doctors choice rather than a government mandate of illegality.

If you want to off yourself, and do so without my knowledge, or help, then I would mourn the loss, if you ask me to help, I would say no.
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Completely fair
 
mr4anarchy said:
People with no medical training who try to commit suicide by themselves can bungle it and end up seriously injured or in a coma.

A doctor has the medical knowledge to make sure it's done as compassionately and painlessly as possible.
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I am not saying the doctors shouldn't be involved, just that the patient needs to be the one who activates the final drug administration so there's no chance that it can be said they changed their mind at the last moment.
 
As long as they were of sound mind and it was their choice and not the doctors who killed them.
 
Tigger said:
I am not saying the doctors shouldn't be involved, just that the patient needs to be the one who activates the final drug administration so there's no chance that it can be said they changed their mind at the last moment.
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The patient should not be conscious when the final drug is administered.
 
Fundamentally, I can't be for this, but as a human being, I can't bring myself to argue against it either.
 
Tigger said:
You could always go my way.... A bullet to the head.
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Not everyone can do that. First of all, it's not as easy as you think it is. Secondly, it can be botched. I found a picture several years ago from Faces of Death where a guy shot himself in the face with a sawed off shot gun and survived. The bastards put tubes through the hole in his face down his throat and forced him to live. Third, not everyone can physically manage to kill themselves because of a disability.
 
It's their life, if they want to end it for whatever reason, it ought to be up to them, so long as no one has influenced them to do so against their will.

If they want to die, let them die.
 
Evenstar said:
Not everyone can do that. First of all, it's not as easy as you think it is. Secondly, it can be botched. I found a picture several years ago from Faces of Death where a guy shot himself in the face with a sawed off shot gun and survived. The bastards put tubes through the hole in his face down his throat and forced him to live. Third, not everyone can physically manage to kill themselves because of a disability.
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Not to mention... why would you want to leave that mess for your loved ones to find and/or have to clean up?
 
Evenstar said:
Not everyone can do that. First of all, it's not as easy as you think it is. Secondly, it can be botched. I found a picture several years ago from Faces of Death where a guy shot himself in the face with a sawed off shot gun and survived. The bastards put tubes through the hole in his face down his throat and forced him to live. Third, not everyone can physically manage to kill themselves because of a disability.
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That's called stupidity, Evenstar. If you're that dumb, you probably deserve to live.

There's always the option that I take in my living will.... refusal to accept food or fluids.
 
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