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Tom DeLay Sentenced To 3 Years In Prison

cpwill said:
not at all. Those who abused their position for power and money in the past go to jail, and that's good. Let us hope that those who are currently doing so see the same effects. Equality before the law.
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I think political criminals like this should go to jail. Dude just made a whiney post simply to deflect what happened in the OP.
 
cpwill said:
not at all. Those who abused their position for power and money in the past go to jail, and that's good. Let us hope that those who are currently doing so see the same effects. Equality before the law.
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So you want to put a large number of GOPers in jail? That is a first coming for you...
 
PeteEU said:
So you want to put a large number of GOPers in jail? That is a first coming for you...
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Party affiliation really should have nothing to do with it. Listen, I defended DeLay early on, and still to some point think it was a political prosecution. But, in the end, if a court finds him guilty, and there is evidence of misdeed that lands him in jail, that is the reality.

The GOP has always placed justice before wrongdoing. Think about it...When wrongdoing is revealed by GOP members in the house or Senate, then the usual course of action is to immediately require their resignation, not so much from demo's who tend to circle the wagons, and cheer if the member is lucky enough to beat the charges.
 
j-mac said:
Party affiliation really should have nothing to do with it. Listen, I defended DeLay early on, and still to some point think it was a political prosecution. But, in the end, if a court finds him guilty, and there is evidence of misdeed that lands him in jail, that is the reality.

The GOP has always placed justice before wrongdoing. Think about it...When wrongdoing is revealed by GOP members in the house or Senate, then the usual course of action is to immediately require their resignation, not so much from demo's who tend to circle the wagons, and cheer if the member is lucky enough to beat the charges.
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Doesn't the phrase "lucky enough to beat the charges" really mean "not convicted of wrongdoing"?
And, do Republicans want to censure other Republicans who have not been convicted of wrongdoing?

why would they do that, it makes no sense.

I think the wealthy and powerful who commit money crimes should be given an out, a way to avoid jail time (after they're convicted, of course. Before, they're innocent, regardless of political party).

They should be allowed to, instead of costing the taxpayer fifty grand or so a year for jail, go out and get a minimum wage job and live on that salary, and that salary alone, for a year.

No big house, no fancy car, no Armani suits, no being called Mr. and Sir, just go to work five or six days a week and live on the proceeds of $7 and change an hour, less payroll taxes of course.

Taxpayers would save, the perp would learn something about finances and how the other half lives, and justice would be served. It would be a win-win situation.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Doesn't the phrase "lucky enough to beat the charges" really mean "not convicted of wrongdoing"?
And, do Republicans want to censure other Republicans who have not been convicted of wrongdoing?

why would they do that, it makes no sense.

I think the wealthy and powerful who commit money crimes should be given an out, a way to avoid jail time (after they're convicted, of course. Before, they're innocent, regardless of political party).

They should be allowed to, instead of costing the taxpayer fifty grand or so a year for jail, go out and get a minimum wage job and live on that salary, and that salary alone, for a year.

No big house, no fancy car, no Armani suits, no being called Mr. and Sir, just go to work five or six days a week and live on the proceeds of $7 and change an hour, less payroll taxes of course.

Taxpayers would save, the perp would learn something about finances and how the other half lives, and justice would be served. It would be a win-win situation.
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But then you still have the cry from people saying that the justice system is tilted toward the rich, allowing them to avoid jail time....No, Equal justice under the law.
 
j-mac said:
But then you still have the cry from people saying that the justice system is tilted toward the rich, allowing them to avoid jail time....No, Equal justice under the law.
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They will whine and cry about that, anyway, so ignore them.
 
Dittohead not! said:
They will whine and cry about that, anyway, so ignore them.
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Yes, but don't they have a point if the treatment under the law is different for a wealthy congress critter that breaks the law, and that of the average schmuck that gets busted doing the same?
 
j-mac said:
Yes, but don't they have a point if the treatment under the law is different for a wealthy congress critter that breaks the law, and that of the average schmuck that gets busted doing the same?
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Oh, the same offer should be made to anyone who commits white collar crime to inflate an already above average income, not just members of Congress. Even the "average schmuck" is going to find living on minimum to be quite an adjustment.

But, there is a point there. The guy already living on minimum wage or just above who steals something should have an alternative as well. I'm not sure just what it should be, though.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Oh, the same offer should be made to anyone who commits white collar crime to inflate an already above average income, not just members of Congress. Even the "average schmuck" is going to find living on minimum to be quite an adjustment.

But, there is a point there. The guy already living on minimum wage or just above who steals something should have an alternative as well. I'm not sure just what it should be, though.
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I don't think that tinkering with the punishment portion of justice is the answer....We are a country that takes pride in equal justice under the law, we should hold true to that.
 
j-mac said:
I don't think that tinkering with the punishment portion of justice is the answer....We are a country that takes pride in equal justice under the law, we should hold true to that.
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Equal justice under the law is an ideal never realized. The accused who can afford a fancy lawyer is much less likely to be convicted of serious crime than the poor schmuck who has to rely on a public defender.

But, if equal justice is the goal, then let's make the living on minimum wage apply to everyone. The petty thief who has never held a job could learn something by actually having to work for a living, too.

and the rich an powerful who just had to be a bit richer and more powerful through illicit means could rub shoulders with the petty thief, and find that they're really not so different. It could be a learning experience all the way around.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Equal justice under the law is an ideal never realized. The accused who can afford a fancy lawyer is much less likely to be convicted of serious crime than the poor schmuck who has to rely on a public defender.
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No system in the world is perfect is it?

But, if equal justice is the goal, then let's make the living on minimum wage apply to everyone. The petty thief who has never held a job could learn something by actually having to work for a living, too.
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Is the ability in America to attain wealth a bad thing in your eyes or something?

and the rich an powerful who just had to be a bit richer and more powerful through illicit means could rub shoulders with the petty thief, and find that they're really not so different. It could be a learning experience all the way around.
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The bold part is the crux of the discussion between us then Ditto. What are the "illicit means" you are talking about?

And if we agree on that part then I say let em 'rub shoulders' in jail.
 
j-mac said:
No system in the world is perfect is it?
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Not in this life, no.

j-mac said:
Is the ability in America to attain wealth a bad thing in your eyes or something?
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No, not the ability to attain wealth. It is not money, but the love of money that is the root of evil. When people put money ahead of honor and family to the point of breaking the law to obtain more of it, that is a bad thing.



j-mac said:
The bold part is the crux of the discussion between us then Ditto. What are the "illicit means" you are talking about?
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I'm talking about the sort of thing that Delay was accused of, acquiring additional wealth by illegal means.

j-mac said:
And if we agree on that part then I say let em 'rub shoulders' in jail.
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Being confined to a jail cell is not the same as living in the real world. People who are used to living large, yet who resort to breaking the law to get even more, need to learn what it is like to work an entry level job and live on a very modest income. They'd be better for it in the end, and the taxpayer wouldn't be paying for them to languish in jail. I'd call it rehabilitation. After they've learned, perhaps they could go back and contribute something useful to society.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Not in this life, no.
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Agreed.

No, not the ability to attain wealth. It is not money, but the love of money that is the root of evil. When people put money ahead of honor and family to the point of breaking the law to obtain more of it, that is a bad thing.
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Also agreed, however, one is presumed innocent before the law until proven guilty. That is the standard. Those who don't do things the right way, the moral way are more often than not dealt with, if not by law, then by karma.

I'm talking about the sort of thing that Delay was accused of, acquiring additional wealth by illegal means.
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There is that pesky presumption of innocence thing out there though.

Being confined to a jail cell is not the same as living in the real world. People who are used to living large, yet who resort to breaking the law to get even more, need to learn what it is like to work an entry level job and live on a very modest income. They'd be better for it in the end, and the taxpayer wouldn't be paying for them to languish in jail. I'd call it rehabilitation. After they've learned, perhaps they could go back and contribute something useful to society.
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Doing such may make you feel better, but it really won't do anything to change the mindset of people like this...They will simply do what they have to in order to get back to where they were, and they'll be able to say I was never imprisoned for my misdeeds....I am just not sure that doing things that are emotionally gratifying to us, is a proper carriage of justice.
 
j-mac said:
Agreed.



Also agreed, however, one is presumed innocent before the law until proven guilty. That is the standard. Those who don't do things the right way, the moral way are more often than not dealt with, if not by law, then by karma.



There is that pesky presumption of innocence thing out there though.
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Of course. I'm not advocating any departure from the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Punishment follows conviction, not accusation.

j-mac said:
Doing such may make you feel better, but it really won't do anything to change the mindset of people like this...They will simply do what they have to in order to get back to where they were, and they'll be able to say I was never imprisoned for my misdeeds....I am just not sure that doing things that are emotionally gratifying to us, is a proper carriage of justice.
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Spending time locked up is not going to do anything to change their mindset. Learning a bit about hard work and the value of money just might, however.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Of course. I'm not advocating any departure from the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Punishment follows conviction, not accusation.



Spending time locked up is not going to do anything to change their mindset. Learning a bit about hard work and the value of money just might, however.
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Well, I feel we are now proceeding in a circle....So with that we will just have to agree to disagree....It's a hypothetical anyway.
 
j-mac said:
Well, I feel we are now proceeding in a circle....So with that we will just have to agree to disagree....It's a hypothetical anyway.
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Yes, it is. It's not like we're going to change the mindset that the only possible punishment for wrongdoers is to be locked up in prison, not even when maintaining prisons gets so expensive that we can no longer afford it... wait, that has already happened!
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, it is. It's not like we're going to change the mindset that the only possible punishment for wrongdoers is to be locked up in prison, not even when maintaining prisons gets so expensive that we can no longer afford it... wait, that has already happened!
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Yeah, we can't afford the prison system, but we can afford UHC, Industry bailouts, throwing money down a black hole of "green energy", entitlement expansion, and failed stimulus projects....Ok.....;)
 
j-mac said:
Yeah, we can't afford the prison system, but we can afford UHC, Industry bailouts, throwing money down a black hole of "green energy", entitlement expansion, and failed stimulus projects....Ok.....;)
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I'm not sure we can afford any of that. I am sure that we can't afford the hodge podge health care system we have now, and that it is the most expensive in the world by a wide margin.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I'm not sure we can afford any of that. I am sure that we can't afford the hodge podge health care system we have now, and that it is the most expensive in the world by a wide margin.
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Well, congrats...I think everyone in the HC system now knows that it is broken....But you are now changing the topic....You said we can't afford the prison system, and I pointed out waste in our federal spending of many things we can't afford but do. I guess all I am saying is before we start remodeling the kitchen, can we finish the bathroom that is gutted?
 
j-mac said:
Well, congrats...I think everyone in the HC system now knows that it is broken....But you are now changing the topic....You said we can't afford the prison system, and I pointed out waste in our federal spending of many things we can't afford but do. I guess all I am saying is before we start remodeling the kitchen, can we finish the bathroom that is gutted?
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Having the most expensive prison system in the world doesn't mean we should also throw money away in other ways as well. That is the sort of thinking that has led to a national debt that is more or less the same as one year's GDP.

That "bathroom that is already gutted" is certainly a higher priority than taking on a new remodeling project we can't afford. So, what do you consider the bathroom project? What is the high priority that can't be cut?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Having the most expensive prison system in the world doesn't mean we should also throw money away in other ways as well. That is the sort of thinking that has led to a national debt that is more or less the same as one year's GDP.

That "bathroom that is already gutted" is certainly a higher priority than taking on a new remodeling project we can't afford. So, what do you consider the bathroom project? What is the high priority that can't be cut?
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I would say at this point, as backed up by Pinetta, (no conservative) would be defense.....We are in a time in the world that only a nation in decline would consider downgrading our defense.
 
j-mac said:
I would say at this point, as backed up by Pinetta, (no conservative) would be defense.....We are in a time in the world that only a nation in decline would consider downgrading our defense.
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Couldn't it be streamlined a bit, though? The second place military spender is China, and we outspend them by a factor of six or seven. It seems to me we're still fighting the cold war in a world that needs defense against small rogue states and rag tag terrorist groups. The Soviet Union is history.
 
Hicup said:
I am at a point now where we need the military to take over, relieve everyone of their duties, hold several consitutitonal convention-referendums, and tighten up the langauge in the constitution holding our representatives to a standard we all hold ourselves to. The list that needs to be addressed is vast and long, but we could put them all down on a ballot, and ask everyone to show up and tell us how they feel. Measures that gain a 60% majority are sent to the states to ratify. Among them would be specific language that severely punishes corruption, allows for a smart and fair process for elections, and campaign spending madness and the list goes on, and on.

Of course that kind of talk is seens as extreme, and I can appreciate where some might think that it is so, however, how can we ever expect the law makers to police themselves when every opportunity they've had to do so is ignored? Hell IMO even the SCOTUS needs term limits, if nothing else than to reflect current philosophical viewpoints consistent with newer understandings. I'm not suggesting a Coup in any real sense, but if someone has a better idea of how to fix our nation and it's political endemic corrupt structure, I'm all ears.


Tim-
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Wow Tim it's not everyday that I read a post calling for the a military junta in the US by someone and that someone really believes that is the answer! Extreme is not nearly a strong enough word to describe your "suggestion."

It's sad when people who called themselves "Americans" propose and support the most UN-AMERICAN ideas, i.e. the military overthrowing the democratically elected government of the United States. Fortunately the concept of military rule that would oust our current elected officials is so absurd, so impossible that it is nothing anyone should ever fear. I find it fascinating reading posts that proclaim such concepts.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Couldn't it be streamlined a bit, though? The second place military spender is China, and we outspend them by a factor of six or seven. It seems to me we're still fighting the cold war in a world that needs defense against small rogue states and rag tag terrorist groups. The Soviet Union is history.
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Well, if you ask Panetta he says that he just went through cutting some $700 Billion from the budget, and is constantly looking for things he can cut out....But when you have the current SecDef appointed by a demo, and a demo himself saying that that's it, anymore will hurt readiness, I think you have to listen.
 
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