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Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as pollutant i

sawyerloggingon

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All I can say is THANK GOD! Obama's EPA got slapped down in this attempt to call water a pollutant. His EPA is completely out of control and this latest attempt to get even more power was a bridge too far.

"Virginia officials scored a key victory Thursday in their battle with the Environmental Protection Agency over what EPA critics describe as a land takeover.
U.S. District Judge Liam O'Grady in Alexandria ruled late Thursday that the EPA exceeded its authority by attempting to regulate stormwater runoff into a Fairfax County creek as a pollutant. O'Grady sided with the Virginia Department of Transportation and the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors, which challenged EPA's stormwater restrictions
"Stormwater runoff is not a pollutant, so EPA is not authorized to regulate it," O'Grady said.
Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli says the ruling could ultimately save Virginia taxpayers more than $300 million


Read more: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as pollutant in Virginia | Fox News
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I agree with the ruling, but these dramatics about Obama are just silly. This isn't a "power grab" its about two different opinions on what a pollutant is and is not, I can understand the argument for stormwater being considered a pollutent because it can alter and change an enviroment if there's simply way too much of it. But its a natural change not like if you dumped a galleon of gasoline into a creek.

But again, this isn't a "power grab" no one is power hungry to control stormwater.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Well, if the EPA were allowed to hold this position, then they would be able to regulate everything that is contaminated by a toxin so it makes sense. Ken Cuccinelli is a pretty straight shooter when it comes to legal analysis and he is smart as a whip. I would not be surprised to see him as the GOP nominee or VP nominee in the not so distant future.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

All I can say is THANK GOD! Obama's EPA got slapped down in this attempt to call water a pollutant. His EPA is completely out of control and this latest attempt to get even more power was a bridge too far.

"Virginia officials scored a key victory Thursday in their battle with the Environmental Protection Agency over what EPA critics describe as a land takeover.
U.S. District Judge Liam O'Grady in Alexandria ruled late Thursday that the EPA exceeded its authority by attempting to regulate stormwater runoff into a Fairfax County creek as a pollutant. O'Grady sided with the Virginia Department of Transportation and the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors, which challenged EPA's stormwater restrictions
"Stormwater runoff is not a pollutant, so EPA is not authorized to regulate it," O'Grady said.
Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli says the ruling could ultimately save Virginia taxpayers more than $300 million


Read more: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as pollutant in Virginia | Fox News

When your mission is total control of all human activity, that may affect the planet in any way, then classifying H2O and CO2 as environmental pollutants is sound science indeed. ;)
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

When your mission is total control of all human activity, that may affect the planet in any way, then classifying H2O and CO2 as environmental pollutants is sound science indeed. ;)

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.

According to that theory air is a pollutant on a windy day and a hurricane or a tornado would have to be declared illegal and somebody would be fined or imprisoned. God maybe?
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.

While I think it is overreaching, I do think we need to consider adding storm water semi-processing into our new infrastructure projects in major urban areas. You cannot completely filter it or it becomes disruptive to ecosystems the other way being too clean, but we do need to find a balance, just not at the receiving end of the EPA double-barrel shotgun.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

be interesting to see how this works out, thinking there will be an appeal.

Here in Oklahoma we use lakes for drinking water. Someone's drinking water is downstream of someone else's street run-off. Even though it is against the law many use the street drains as oil dumps. Throw in the high level of herbicide/pesticide/fertilizer used to keep suburban lawns so pretty and the threat to streams ans creeks is very real.

I wouldn't mind a system where storm run-off to filtered because I don't need any of that in my creek.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.

According to that theory air is a pollutant on a windy day and a hurricane or a tornado would have to be declared illegal and somebody would be fined or imprisoned. God maybe?

10 Characters
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

be interesting to see how this works out, thinking there will be an appeal.

Here in Oklahoma we use lakes for drinking water. Someone's drinking water is downstream of someone else's street run-off. Even though it is against the law many use the street drains as oil dumps. Throw in the high level of herbicide/pesticide/fertilizer used to keep suburban lawns so pretty and the threat to streams ans creeks is very real.

I wouldn't mind a system where storm run-off to filtered because I don't need any of that in my creek.


LOL!

And if the wind were filtered we'd have cleaner air to breathe too. So the government ought to require that.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.

Hold on there skippy. What the gov't does and does not do has no bearing on the natural or unnatural "cause" of anything. Natrual systems (as well as man-made systems) are disrupted by everything, including other natural elements within them; the spotted owl decline was accompanied by a barred owl increase in the same natural habitat yet was used, by econuts, as a primary "excuse" to limit logging in tha pacific northwest. Storm damage was caused by a natural event, named Sandy, yet used as an "excuse" to transfer money from the entire nation to the area affected by it (natural or not). Gov't control is more about excuses, than reasons, and in this case they got called on it by a judge, even though "by law" the EPA was right.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I love threads like this from Cons. Because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of environmental laws. The ruling was dealing with hazardous materials in storm water which is EPA's pervue. However EPA almost never gets involved in this matter since the Clean Water Act is the the presiding statute in this matter and it is managed by the states under the concept of primacy. So the ruling has litttle or no value and even less meaning. A judge is showboating for his next election. Nothing more.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Hold on there skippy. What the gov't does and does not do has no bearing on the natural or unnatural "cause" of anything. Natrual systems (as well as man-made systems) are disrupted by everything, including other natural elements within them; the spotted owl decline was accompanied by a barred owl increase in the same natural habitat yet was used, by econuts, as a primary "excuse" to limit logging in tha pacific northwest. Storm damage was caused by a natural event, named Sandy, yet used as an "excuse" to transfer money from the entire nation to the area affected by it (natural or not). Gov't control is more about excuses, than reasons, and in this case they got called on it by a judge, even though "by law" the EPA was right.

I think we've left the scope of the OP. We were talking about storm water run off into a creek, not a monster hurricane. The two are different so don't take what I said when we were talking about creeks to something else. But you are correct in that its more than just whether something is natural or not that determines if intervention is needed.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I agree with the ruling, but these dramatics about Obama are just silly. This isn't a "power grab" its about two different opinions on what a pollutant is and is not, I can understand the argument for stormwater being considered a pollutent because it can alter and change an enviroment if there's simply way too much of it. But its a natural change not like if you dumped a galleon of gasoline into a creek.

But again, this isn't a "power grab" no one is power hungry to control stormwater.

What? Obama and his cronies are trying to regulate anything and everything and he's using the EPA and Obamacare to do it.

Don't you understand that if you can regulate something you can control it? and that is exactly what Obama wants - control over everything, because if he has control everything he can control you!
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

What? Obama and his cronies are trying to regulate anything and everything and he's using the EPA and Obamacare to do it.

Don't you understand that if you can regulate something you can control it? and that is exactly what Obama wants - control over everything, because if he has control everything he can control you!

We're talking about storm water here, I don't think Obama is really interested in having that "power" for the sake of having it. And I don't think he really wants control over everything too, I mean his actions don't really support that conculsion. After all he ended DADT so he certainly doesn't want control over that, and he's at least stated he wants to end the Defense of Marriage Act, that's something else he doesn't want to control.

Are you really John Galt or are you just making that up?
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

:applaud:applaud:applaud
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

The EPA has gone crazy since Lisa Jackson took over. In the last 5 years they have attacked two large areas of recycling and almost succeeded to destroying both eliminating hundreds of businesses and thousands of jobs.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

According to that theory air is a pollutant on a windy day and a hurricane or a tornado would have to be declared illegal and somebody would be fined or imprisoned. God maybe?

Ohhhh, Ohhhh, I know this one!!!

Al Gore!
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Stormwater runoff is rain that falls on streets, parking areas, sports fields, gravel lots, rooftops or other developed land and flows directly into nearby lakes, rivers and Puget Sound. The drizzling or pounding rain picks up and mixes with what's on the ground:

Oil, grease, metals and coolants from vehicles;
Fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals from gardens and homes;
Bacteria from pet wastes and failing septic systems;
Soil from construction sites and other bare ground;
Soaps from car or equipment washing; and
Accidental spills, leaky storage containers, tobacco spit and whatever else ends up on the ground.

The polluted runoff then rushes into nearby gutters and storm drains and into Puget Sound's streams, lakes, rivers and bays. In most areas, stormwater runoff enters these waters without being cleaned of pollutants.

Why is stormwater a problem?

Across the U.S., unmanaged stormwater runoff has caused serious damage to streams, lakes and estuaries, particularly where land uses change from rural to urban activities. ....

The Washington Department of Ecology estimates that one-third of all the polluted waters in the state are polluted by stormwater runoff. Stormwater pollution has contributed to closing thousands of acres of productive shellfish growing beaches. Stormwater runoff can also close swimming beaches and contaminate drinking water supplies.

Poorly managed stormwater causes three big problems:

Pollution from stormwater contaminates our waters, closes local businesses, and harms or kills fish and other wildlife. As stormwater passes over developed land, it picks up pollutants and transports them to the nearest storm drain and eventually Puget Sound's rivers and bays.

Flooding harms streams and wetlands and destroys habitat needed for fish and other wildlife. Unable to soak into the ground, stormwater quickly flows or floods downstream from developed land during the rainy season. As a result, floods can damage homes and businesses, flood septic system drain fields and overwhelm streams, wetlands and wildlife habitat.

Water shortages in growing communities may occur, especially in developed areas with impervious surfaces or areas where water cannot filtrate through, such as roads, parking lots and rooftops. The impervious surfaces keep rainfall from soaking into the ground and replenishing groundwater and streams used for drinking water or fish habitat.
Stormwater runoff pollution and how to reduce it
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Stormwater runoff is rain that falls on streets, parking areas, sports fields, gravel lots, rooftops or other developed land and flows directly into nearby lakes, rivers and Puget Sound. The drizzling or pounding rain picks up and mixes with what's on the ground:

Oil, grease, metals and coolants from vehicles;
Fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals from gardens and homes;
Bacteria from pet wastes and failing septic systems;
Soil from construction sites and other bare ground;
Soaps from car or equipment washing; and
Accidental spills, leaky storage containers, tobacco spit and whatever else ends up on the ground.

The polluted runoff then rushes into nearby gutters and storm drains and into Puget Sound's streams, lakes, rivers and bays. In most areas, stormwater runoff enters these waters without being cleaned of pollutants.

Why is stormwater a problem?

Across the U.S., unmanaged stormwater runoff has caused serious damage to streams, lakes and estuaries, particularly where land uses change from rural to urban activities. ....

The Washington Department of Ecology estimates that one-third of all the polluted waters in the state are polluted by stormwater runoff. Stormwater pollution has contributed to closing thousands of acres of productive shellfish growing beaches. Stormwater runoff can also close swimming beaches and contaminate drinking water supplies.

Poorly managed stormwater causes three big problems:

Pollution from stormwater contaminates our waters, closes local businesses, and harms or kills fish and other wildlife. As stormwater passes over developed land, it picks up pollutants and transports them to the nearest storm drain and eventually Puget Sound's rivers and bays.

Flooding harms streams and wetlands and destroys habitat needed for fish and other wildlife. Unable to soak into the ground, stormwater quickly flows or floods downstream from developed land during the rainy season. As a result, floods can damage homes and businesses, flood septic system drain fields and overwhelm streams, wetlands and wildlife habitat.

Water shortages in growing communities may occur, especially in developed areas with impervious surfaces or areas where water cannot filtrate through, such as roads, parking lots and rooftops. The impervious surfaces keep rainfall from soaking into the ground and replenishing groundwater and streams used for drinking water or fish habitat.
Stormwater runoff pollution and how to reduce it

Seems to me the regulations and laws should be on the other end, don't regulate runoff, regulate what makes it dirty in the first place. Calling water a pollutant means the EPA is admitting it has failed to do its job. I know in the logging industry people used to change oil in their equipment in the woods letting the old oil just run off onto the dirt road but the FS stopped that long ago. Nowadays if you have a yarder or a loader etc that even leaks some hydraulic oil as most old junk does, you have to keep a tarp under it covered with oil absorbing sand and routinely haul that out to be properly disposed of with paper work that proves it. That is attacking the problem on the right end and the EPA could learn from that but they want power not clean water so they choose the other end.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

I think its safe to say that a pollutant is anything that greatly disturbs the life and structure of an ecosystem, and oil spill is an obvious example. H2O and CO2 could be pollutants depending on what affect they have on the enviroment, but if its natural like storm water I don't see the need to regulate it as a normal course of action.

Why is it that we, the swinish masses, can see that, but the smartest man in the world can't?

Is it a way to control the population, or are they not nearly as smart as they want us to think they are?
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Stormwater is not in and of itself a pollutant, of course. The problem with runoff water is that it often degrades the environment by contributing to erosion, which is an inevitably when you have impervious manmade surfaces like concrete etc. that wouldn't otherwise be there. Not to mention the fact that runoff water tends to pick up pollutants when it runs over such impervious surfaces.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Stormwater runoff is rain that falls on streets, parking areas, sports fields, gravel lots, rooftops or other developed land and flows directly into nearby lakes, rivers and Puget Sound. The drizzling or pounding rain picks up and mixes with what's on the ground:

Oil, grease, metals and coolants from vehicles;
Fertilizers, pesticides and other chemicals from gardens and homes;
Bacteria from pet wastes and failing septic systems;
Soil from construction sites and other bare ground;
Soaps from car or equipment washing; and
Accidental spills, leaky storage containers, tobacco spit and whatever else ends up on the ground.

The polluted runoff then rushes into nearby gutters and storm drains and into Puget Sound's streams, lakes, rivers and bays. In most areas, stormwater runoff enters these waters without being cleaned of pollutants.

Why is stormwater a problem?

Across the U.S., unmanaged stormwater runoff has caused serious damage to streams, lakes and estuaries, particularly where land uses change from rural to urban activities. ....

The Washington Department of Ecology estimates that one-third of all the polluted waters in the state are polluted by stormwater runoff. Stormwater pollution has contributed to closing thousands of acres of productive shellfish growing beaches. Stormwater runoff can also close swimming beaches and contaminate drinking water supplies.

Poorly managed stormwater causes three big problems:

Pollution from stormwater contaminates our waters, closes local businesses, and harms or kills fish and other wildlife. As stormwater passes over developed land, it picks up pollutants and transports them to the nearest storm drain and eventually Puget Sound's rivers and bays.

Flooding harms streams and wetlands and destroys habitat needed for fish and other wildlife. Unable to soak into the ground, stormwater quickly flows or floods downstream from developed land during the rainy season. As a result, floods can damage homes and businesses, flood septic system drain fields and overwhelm streams, wetlands and wildlife habitat.

Water shortages in growing communities may occur, especially in developed areas with impervious surfaces or areas where water cannot filtrate through, such as roads, parking lots and rooftops. The impervious surfaces keep rainfall from soaking into the ground and replenishing groundwater and streams used for drinking water or fish habitat.
Stormwater runoff pollution and how to reduce it

If the storm water runs into a navagable wateway any pollution is the responsibilty of the US Coast Guard or the State Surface Water Division depending on where it is located. Size has no part.

Also, Most storm water is a pollutant by characterization. The amount of ingrediants that are in it can compose a risk to aquatic life. This is especially true in Industrial and Agricultural areas.
 
Re: Federal judge rules EPA overstepped authority trying to regulate water as polluta

Why is it that we, the swinish masses, can see that, but the smartest man in the world can't?

Is it a way to control the population, or are they not nearly as smart as they want us to think they are?

Tell me how you get from storm water to population control, this outta be funny.
 
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