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60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told...

TheDemSocialist said:
Its a hospice.

As Manc Skipper already posted: What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices
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From the link...

"However, as we have seen, there have been too many cases where patients were put on the pathway without a proper explanation or their families being involved. This is simply unacceptable."
"Today I have committed to appoint an independent chair to review how end of life care is working and oversee the reviews into the LCP. This will report back to me in the new year. This review will also consider the value of locally set incentives, and whether they are leading to bad decisions or practice."
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So the director admits that these things have happened, and that there are financial incentives in termination, rather than treatment....Sometimes without consultation of the patient, or family...This is a non starter.
 
j-mac said:
From the link...



So the director admits that these things have happened, and that there are financial incentives in termination, rather than treatment....Sometimes without consultation of the patient,
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Didnt say that

or family...This is a non starter.
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Yes i know i never said it didnt.

Simply said it seems some of you dont udnerstand what a hospice is.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Didnt say that


Yes i know i never said it didnt.

Simply said it seems some of you dont udnerstand what a hospice is.
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I know what a hospice is....but why are you denying what was said in the article you provided? Heck, I even posted the paragraph where it said that.
 
LowDown said:
60,000 patients put on death pathway without being told but minister still says controversial end-of-life plan is 'fantastic' | Mail Online



The "care pathway" is where they sedate patients and then withdraw life sustaining care, basically killing them off.

Put the government in charge of health care and then see what happens when the government gets short of money.

The BHS basically pays a bounty for every patient finished off this way. 130,000 patients are killed this way yearly, apparently almost half of them without consent.

The British Health Minister calls the pathway "a great step forward."
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And progressives act like death panels don't exist when it comes to socialized health care. Of course when they come into fruition in the US they will brazenly defend them, yet Sarah Palin is the idiot?

Just wait - the same people who mocked Palin will now be defending the idea when it ultimately occurs. Of course they wont call them "death panels" the will come up with a PC term such as "health care rationing."
 
Mr.Nick said:
And progressives act like death panels don't exist when it comes to socialized health care. Of course when they come into fruition in the US they will brazenly defend them, yet Sarah Palin is the idiot?

Just wait - the same people who mocked Palin will now be defending the idea when it ultimately occurs. Of course they wont call them "death panels" the will come up with a PC term such as "health care rationing."
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they already have, it's called the Independant Patient Advisory Board.
 
j-mac said:
I know what a hospice is....but why are you denying what was said in the article you provided? Heck, I even posted the paragraph where it said that.
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Show me where i denied what the article said please.
 
my grandfather (83) had a brain stroke which was caused by a traffic accident and completely lost his conscious that led him to lay unconscious for 4 months untill his death.doctors said there was nothing else they can do for him anymore.

but we didnt leave him alone and never stopped hoping he would recover.

he died then but at least we dont feel guilty.
 
j-mac said:
they already have, it's called the Independant Patient Advisory Board.
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So, when an insurance company says you can't have an unproven or snake oil type procedure, they're a death panel? That is what you would have to believe to call this a death panel.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Are you trying to tell me that you think that COPD patients have it easy compared to what your Husband went through?

I find what you are saying here very disturbing and rude. "That is NOT the same thing as the terminal illnesses I've referred to in my posts." The hell it aint and you are very misinformed if you truly think otherwise. You obviously have not been around someone with COPD or perhaps have only been around people with COPD not in the final stage. In fact from your statement here I would say that you are completely ignorant of what happens in the course of COPD. I have watched other loved ones die from cancer (Grandpa, Mother in law, Step dad, My neice) and my dad died in 2007 from Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia after suffering a massive heart attack. Look that up. The end stages of cancer and the end stages of COPD are pretty close to them same. COPD is a terminal illness not a chronic disease you would be wise to understand that and exactly what it means.

Both of these paragraphs have nothing to do with me or with anything that I said. Actually most of everything that you have been saying to me is a complete strawman argument. I am not sure why you believe that lying in my face was a good idea but please stop it now.

Again since you totally ignored what I actually said and just started making up ****, my concerns are that the patient will lose their freedoms and liberties because of some people who are more concerned with money rather than doing whats right. The other side of the coin of hospitals wanting extra care for financial gain that are pointless,is insurance companies wanting nothing done to save money. Just let them die they are going to die anyways. Had this attitude been prevalent with my Mom she would have died the first night in the hospital in 1998. My Mom did not want to suffer anymore than most people. And I did not make her suffer by holding onto her and not letting her go (like what you so rudely insensitively implied) off and on she had a DNR order that I signed and witnessed each time. But she did not want to die and at times though they were few she didnt feel that it was time to leave yet. More often than not she wanted to die. But something inside her made her keep trying despite doctor after doctor giving her ridiculously short prognosis of death. Each doctors visit amazed her doctors they couldnt explain why she wasnt dead yet. In 1998 we went top a conference for end stage COPD patients where we learned about end of life options. Periodically we would attend refresher of that conference and each time the other people that attended last time became smaller and the new people became larger.

Dont compare what we went through because just as I have no clue what you went through, you have no clue what i went through. And frankly I am disgusted that you would be childish enough to think that one terminal illness is a pissing contest.

I have nothing more to say to you.
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I understand. You're offended with things that I've said based on your very personal and heart-felt experience with your mom. I get it. If you have taken my relating my own personal experiences with the death of a spouse and a father and the decisions we made as being in some kind of pissing contest with you, that was not my intention at all.

I know of no other way to relate on DP than to share my personal experiences. I firmly believe that our country cannot afford to think that "life at any price" is the responsibility of our government. And, further, I believe that quality of life far outweighs quantity. As a society, we've just got to grow up and face those hard truths.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Don't act like the costs aren't bloated, you know they are. Hospitals charge insurance companies a thousand bucks for an IV bag. Gee, I wonder why health insurance is so damn expensive here. There are two fundamental things that our society should be able to afford: Education and healthcare. I dont' care if you have to eat ramen every day and buy your clothes from good will, you should be able to see a doctor when you're sick.

If we can't afford those two things, we might as well be a **** hole like afghanistan.
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No, the costs aren't bloated, they are excessive, but it's not because hospitals are over-charging, but that the systems is being taxed and overutilized, by a population that is excessively sick. If you want health care, and aren't willing to pay for it, then you either get poor service, or you get expensive health care, because it's in high demand, but the supply is limited. You, of all people, should understand how market forces work. The costs of running a hospital are very high, which is why we have seen an increase in outpatient services and shorter lengths of stay. Add to that, government is the primary payor source, and what do you get with government? You get inefficiency, increased costs, and over-regulation. Health care is not a free market product, and has not been for quite some time.

Here's a few excerpts from an interesting article:

Hospitals receive their revenues from different sources for the services they provide to patients. At the end of the first decade of the 2000s and in the early 2010s, the largest source of income to community hospitals came from Medicare and Medicaid programs. According to data released in January 2009 by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, of the $2.24 trillion spent on health care in 2007, government funds provided 46.2 percent, or $1.04 billion. Specifically, Medicaid accounted for 19.2 percent of funding; Medicare, 14.7 percent; and other government funding, 12.3 percent. Private insurance paid 34.6 percent, or over $775 billion; out-of-pocket expenses accounted for 12 percent, or $268.9 billion; and the remaining 7.2 percent came from other sources.
Hospital expenses are strongly affected by legislation, costs of medical technology, and trends in medical practice. As these expenses rose throughout the first decade of the 2000s, on-site administrative, food service, maintenance, and laundry support often were streamlined or contracted out in response. To counteract rising costs, many hospitals also attempted to expand their revenues by increasing their role in community health maintenance efforts beyond traditional emergency, obstetrics, and inpatient care to include disease prevention and patient education programs, such as weight reduction, drug rehabilitation, prenatal care, and pediatric wellness.
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Medicare and Medicaid programs also affected hospital management, requiring greater training in nonmedical matters in order to deal with paperwork regulations and various service requirements. However, cutbacks and changes in the payment systems in Medicare and Medicaid during the 1980s and early 1990s had a large impact on the industry's bottom line. In 1991, $43 billion was cut from the Medicare budget, and in 1996 President Clinton vetoed a Republican balanced budget plan that would have mandated Medicare cuts of $270 billion and Medicaid cuts of $163 billion by 2000. The president's alternative called for $124 billion in Medicare reductions, so although no compromise was immediately reached, the hospital industry was ready for even more changes.
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he business-like approach that generally marked the entire industry was characterized by "quality management." Instead of leaving the quality of care in the hands of individual practitioners, hospitals instituted measures to prevent faulty processes from occurring. Quality management was originally adopted by hospitals to improve food service and lower the length of patient stays. However, in the 1990s this approach was also used for clinical decisions and processes. Although hospital revenues had increased a total of 404 percent, from $102 billion in 1980 to $412 billion in 2000, costs incurred by hospitals also increased, rising 429 percent from nearly $92 billion in 1980 to more than $395 billion in 2000.
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At the end of 2002, hospital industry advocates were calling for increased provider payment relief for 2003, noting that more than half of the members of the American Hospital Association (AHA) reported losing money on Medicare in 2000. In addition, around 60 percent lost money in the Medicaid program, and about one of every three hospitals reported a year-end loss.
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General Medical and Surgical Hospitals market report | HighBeam Business: Arrive Prepared

I found out first hand, that government reimbursement for health care services was overall much better than that from private insurance companies, and this is probably one of the primary reasons why our health care costs have gone up so much.
 
j-mac said:
Well, I could be wrong because you intentionally left out the leading designator in this but, you opened the response with:
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I was responding to because you said people are put to death without the consient of the patient. You said that according to this link: What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices
you even quoted a pice from it.
It never said that people are put to death without consent from the patient. People have been put to death without next of kin or family consent yes, but not from the patient.
 
Boo Radley said:
So, when an insurance company says you can't have an unproven or snake oil type procedure, they're a death panel? That is what you would have to believe to call this a death panel.
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In a manner of speaking Yes. But I have already addressed that. With an insurance company there are avenues to get the coverage you want. With government there is no escape ultimately.
 
j-mac said:
In a manner of speaking Yes. But I have already addressed that. With an insurance company there are avenues to get the coverage you want. With government there is no escape ultimately.
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Nonsense. The very same avenues exist for both.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
That's the issue, a heart bypass shouldn't cost 75-125 thousand. Even if you paid the doctors thousands an hour, it wouldn't amount to a fraction of that. Our health care system is bloated and is focused far more on "making-it-rain" profits than keeping our population healthy. I support the free market 100%, but the way our government and country is structured due to health care lobbies is certifiably insane. Poor people simply can't afford proper health care. If we provide nothing else, this of all things should be available.
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Point on correct. The whole health care system is a stinking mess. You can go back to the congressmen who led the passing of the Medicare Medication bill in 2003 and after serving their congressional term had sugar coated lobbyist jobs waiting for them. How fricking blatant can one be in illustrating the stentch of corruption.

It has become like a riot in a city where the rioters are trying to grab anything they can out of broken store windows. The pharmaceuticals, medical equpment companies, hosptials , and physicians are all running down the streets grabbing whatever they can fill their pockets with.
There is so much payola in this business.....
 
lizzie said:
No, the costs aren't bloated, they are excessive, but it's not because hospitals are over-charging, but that the systems is being taxed and overutilized, by a population that is excessively sick. If you want health care, and aren't willing to pay for it, then you either get poor service, or you get expensive health care, because it's in high demand, but the supply is limited. You, of all people, should understand how market forces work. The costs of running a hospital are very high, which is why we have seen an increase in outpatient services and shorter lengths of stay. Add to that, government is the primary payor source, and what do you get with government? You get inefficiency, increased costs, and over-regulation. Health care is not a free market product, and has not been for quite some time.

Here's a few excerpts from an interesting article:







General Medical and Surgical Hospitals market report | HighBeam Business: Arrive Prepared

I found out first hand, that government reimbursement for health care services was overall much better than that from private insurance companies, and this is probably one of the primary reasons why our health care costs have gone up so much.
Click to expand...
We know that there is a better way. Most european countries are paying a fraction of the cost that we're paying, while having better coverage. It seems like you are defending the current setup. There is absolutely no reason to kill off our "terminally" ill, or deny health coverage to anyone. We are the richest country in the world, and many countries much poorer than us have shown us how a health care system can be run. I know that you as a healthcare professional and a caring person would like to be able to care for everyone that needs it. This isn't a pipedream, it can be achieved, and for less than we're paying now.
 
lizzie said:
It isn't bad, in and of itself. What is bad, is expecting everyone else to pay for it.
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That's what happens when you live in a society, the only way to ever really escape that is to go off into a remote location and live on your own. When there is any sort of state or nationally run healthcare program that's what happens people pay for healthcare, everyone's healthcare including their own but no one should ever get to decide that they don't want someone else to go on living and pull the plug on the individual...that's something for the doctor the individual and the family to decide on.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I was responding to because you said people are put to death without the consient of the patient. You said that according to this link: What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices
you even quoted a pice from it.
It never said that people are put to death without consent from the patient. People have been put to death without next of kin or family consent yes, but not from the patient.
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OMG, are you for real? have you even read the OP? It clearly does state that.
 
j-mac said:
Please outline how...
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Same way. There is nothing different. Pay yourself, use other insurance, challenge the evidence. Nothing is different.
 
j-mac said:
OMG, are you for real? have you even read the OP? It clearly does state that.
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Oh were talking about the OP. I thought we were talking about my link because that is what you quoted.

But yes the link does say that.
 
Boo Radley said:
Same way. There is nothing different. Pay yourself, use other insurance, challenge the evidence. Nothing is different.
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The ACA mandates that in certain respects all insurance must meet uniform guidelines no?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
We should draw the line in a humane way. Telling people to **** off because they have no money is not humane it is ****ing evil and the pinnacle of assholeness. This is not the dark ages or back in the caveman days. Kindness is not measured by money. If we can put a man on the moon we can save a dying human being or at least make their death humane. Shoving terminal people out hospital doors just because their family have no money divides the monsters from humans.


Do you have kids? A man shoots up a school killing and injuring 6 and 7 year olds, what you are asserting is that the surviving children that did have enough money should have been left to die. What you are asserting is that money is more important than human life. Sounds a bit greedy and self centered. Only a monster would knowing kill a child because the kids family was poor. By law an parent or whoever is responsible for a child can be convicted of murder for neglect of a childs welfare that leads to death. Which is exactly what you are promoting.
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Sorry, but that is not reality. Reality is that healthcare is a business and people are in it for money. Everything is about money. So yes, one must consider dollars and cents when deciding what care is administered to those who cannot or will not support themselves. Do you want to pay my bills?
 
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