NRA Newtown response [W:818]

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

actually legalizing drugs would probably get rid of lots of the violent crime

its funny that those who understand this fact seem to thing banning guns won't lead to the same problems caused by the silly war on drugs

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I agree and of course I was being facetious. :2razz: Just trying to give some people a hard time.

Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:

I agree and of course I was being facetious. :2razz: Just trying to give some people a hard time.

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telling the truth is often giving a hard time to those who don't like facts

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

So why did you post a claim about a police opinion that was not substantiated?

I like 99% of the cops

the bureaucrats pretending to be cops who run those associations-not so much

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A recent poll conducted by John Zogby and Mark Mellman of 800 people around the country (before the events of Sept. 11) reported that 86 percent of Americans and 78 percent of gun owners support background checks at gun shows. Many lawmakers are afraid to tackle the gun-safety issue because of the threats and thunder from the gun lobby, but the citizens of this country are ready for a responsible approach to gun ownership.

"Like Senate Bill 890, the Castle-McCarthy bill would require background checks at gun shows and would crack down on gun crime without interfering with the operation of gun shows or infringing on the freedom of law-abiding Americans to buy and sell guns. Already a coalition is forming to support this congressional legislation to close the gun-show loopholes. The National Association of Police Organizations (230,000 law enforcement officers), the National Education Association (2.3 million members), the National League of Cities (18,000 cities, towns and villages), 21 state gun-safety groups (thousands of gun safety activists) and the Million Mom March have endorsed this legislation.

HCGP - Texas Gun Show Loophole

Re: NRA Newtown response

Catawba said:

A recent poll conducted by John Zogby and Mark Mellman of 800 people around the country (before the events of Sept. 11) reported that 86 percent of Americans and 78 percent of gun owners support background checks at gun shows. Many lawmakers are afraid to tackle the gun-safety issue because of the threats and thunder from the gun lobby, but the citizens of this country are ready for a responsible approach to gun ownership.

"Like Senate Bill 890, the Castle-McCarthy bill would require background checks at gun shows and would crack down on gun crime without interfering with the operation of gun shows or infringing on the freedom of law-abiding Americans to buy and sell guns. Already a coalition is forming to support this congressional legislation to close the gun-show loopholes. The National Association of Police Organizations (230,000 law enforcement officers), the National Education Association (2.3 million members), the National League of Cities (18,000 cities, towns and villages), 21 state gun-safety groups (thousands of gun safety activists) and the Million Mom March have endorsed this legislation.

HCGP - Texas Gun Show Loophole

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feel good idiocy. less than 2% of guns used in crime come from gun shows and that figure doesn't say if the guns were purchased pursuant to a BGI.

citing gorups like the NEA (dem organ) the NLC(Dem organ) and the million moron march (LOL astro turf created by a Clinton operative ) means nothing to me

from your cite from the GREEN PARTY


Each year roughly 4,500 gun shows are held in the United States, yet there is no federal law requiring background checks for private sales of guns. Texas leads the list with 486 gun shows annually, and, as with many other states, has no state law requiring background checks for people buying guns from unlicensed dealers. This loophole has made gun shows the second leading source of illegal firearms recovered in gun-trafficking investigations, according to federal law enforcement.

GUESS WHAT IT IS ILLEGAL TO BE AN UNLICENSED DEALER so your cite is a LIE

private sellers are NOT dealers

if they are they are in violation of federal laws

Private sellers aren't required to do BGCs at gun shows or in their homes or in the gun club parking lot

FAIL

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

feel good idiocy. less than 2% of guns used in crime come from gun shows and that figure doesn't say if the guns were purchased pursuant to a BGI.

citing gorups like the NEA (dem organ) the NLC(Dem organ) and the million moron march (LOL astro turf created by a Clinton operative ) means nothing to me

from your cite from the GREEN PARTY

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"Gun shows were a major trafficking channel, involving the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation." (p. xi)
Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers," Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (June 2000)

Close Gun Show Loophole, Facts and Statistics

Each year roughly 4,500 gun shows are held in the United States, yet there is no federal law requiring background checks for private sales of guns. Texas leads the list with 486 gun shows annually, and, as with many other states, has no state law requiring background checks for people buying guns from unlicensed dealers. This loophole has made gun shows the second leading source of illegal firearms recovered in gun-trafficking investigations, according to federal law enforcement.

GUESS WHAT IT IS ILLEGAL TO BE AN UNLICENSED DEALER so your cite is a LIE

private sellers are NOT dealers

if they are they are in violation of federal laws

Private sellers aren't required to do BGCs at gun shows or in their homes or in the gun club parking lot

FAIL

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A primer for TurtleDude and others uniformed about the gun show loophole:

"To date, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) has prevented nearly 1.8 million criminals and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. The law also has a deterrent effect—prohibited purchasers are less likely to try to buy guns when they know comprehensive background check requirements are in place.

Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.

Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the “private sales” described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole."

Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Re: NRA Newtown response

two problems with that nonsense

1) guns tracked is often based on political reasons and does not counter than cited often proof from the ATF and DOJ that less than 2% of guns used in crime come from gunshots

2) as to the millions stopped

that has been destroyed because if you are DENIED AFTER A BGC that means you LIED ON THE form 4473 and that is perjury (if you admit to being a felon etc they deny you the gun without doing the check)

and if there were 1.8 million stopped there should have been 1.8 million indictments

well hate to tell you. clinton made the claim of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS STOPPED yet when it turned out that ONLY 12 WERE PROSECUTED CLINTON stopped talking about it

and if they were turned down and not prosecuted how do you know they didn't get a gun from another source

does that remind YOU OF A RECENT KILLER who was denied a retail gun sale and managed to get guns from another source (like KILLING HIS MOTHER)

sorry, and repeating the same lie over and over about a non existent loophole by citing far left anti gun extremist organizations doesn't cut it

Re: NRA Newtown response

does that remind YOU OF A RECENT KILLER who was denied a retail gun sale and managed to get guns from another source (like KILLING HIS MOTHER)

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Or someone who laid in wait and asassinated firemen as the neighborhood burned to the ground?

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

two problems with that nonsense

1) guns tracked is often based on political reasons and does not counter than cited often proof from the ATF and DOJ that less than 2% of guns used in crime come from gunshots

2) as to the millions stopped

that has been destroyed because if you are DENIED AFTER A BGC that means you LIED ON THE form 4473 and that is perjury (if you admit to being a felon etc they deny you the gun without doing the check)

and if there were 1.8 million stopped there should have been 1.8 million indictments

well hate to tell you. clinton made the claim of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS STOPPED yet when it turned out that ONLY 12 WERE PROSECUTED CLINTON stopped talking about it

and if they were turned down and not prosecuted how do you know they didn't get a gun from another source

does that remind YOU OF A RECENT KILLER who was denied a retail gun sale and managed to get guns from another source (like KILLING HIS MOTHER)

sorry, and repeating the same lie over and over about a non existent loophole by citing far left anti gun extremist organizations doesn't cut it

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I cite statistics from the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, and you offer only your unsubstantiated lame ass opinions. But at least you numbered your lame ass opinions eh? Thanks for playing!

Catawba said:

I cite statistics from the Department of the
Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
& Firearms, and you offer only your unsubstantiated lame ass opinions. But at least you numbered your lame ass opinions eh? Thanks for playing!

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I use to do Commercial HVAC repair and once got called out to what I thought was a empty strip bussiness center in North Houston. No signs, no cars.

But I noticed multpile Cameras and pulled in their parking lot. A tall guy with a badge clipped to his belt oppened one of their garage doors and motioned me to dtive in.

It was the a ATF office filled with agents and FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

They even had an armory with pallets of banana clips being delivered in and amunition.

The agent was friendly enough and gave me a tour and we talked pistols.

I just couldn't fathom why they would need such access to so many high powered fully automatic weapons.

So our Federal Govts armed to the teeth for some reason and I hate conspiracies.

We the people have rights under our Constitution to prevent something like Cambodia 1970 from happening to us.

That and to keep Obama voters thinking twice about the next home they invade.

And you guys are just going to have to accept that.

Fenton said:

I use to do Commercial HVAC repair and once got called out to what I thought was a empty strip bussiness center in North Houston. No signs, no cars.

But I noticed multpile Cameras and pulled in their parking lot. A tall guy with a badge clipped to his belt oppened one of their garage doors and motioned me to dtive in.

It was the a ATF office filled with agents and FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

They even had an armory with pallets of banana clips being delivered in and amunition.

The agent was friendly enough and gave me a tour and we talked pistols.

I just couldn't fathom why they would need such access to so many high powered fully automatic weapons.

So our Federal Govts armed to the teeth for some reason and I hate conspiracies.

We the people have rights under our Constitution to prevent something like Cambodia 1970 from happening to us.

That and to keep Obama voters thinking twice about the next home they invade.

And you guys are just going to have to accept that.

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So you have nothing to refute the statistics I provided?

Fenton said:

I use to do Commercial HVAC repair and once got called out to what I thought was a empty strip bussiness center in North Houston. No signs, no cars.

But I noticed multpile Cameras and pulled in their parking lot. A tall guy with a badge clipped to his belt oppened one of their garage doors and motioned me to dtive in.

It was the a ATF office filled with agents and FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.

They even had an armory with pallets of banana clips being delivered in and amunition.

The agent was friendly enough and gave me a tour and we talked pistols.

I just couldn't fathom why they would need such access to so many high powered fully automatic weapons.

So our Federal Govts armed to the teeth for some reason and I hate conspiracies.

We the people have rights under our Constitution to prevent something like Cambodia 1970 from happening to us.

That and to keep Obama voters thinking twice about the next home they invade.

And you guys are just going to have to accept that.

Click to expand...

I used to be Chief Engineer in a highrise that had ATF on the 10th floor and the D.E.A on the 11th. I was always in and out of there. I have seen some NICE weaponry they have confiscated. I remember them once pushing in a HUGE Waste Management dumpster FULL of brand new rifles of all sorts. The DEA brought in some pretty nice evidence too. LOL!

I actually agree with the lunatic fringe on this one. I see no problem with background checks at gun shows, unless you already have a CC or are a member of the military/police etc. I mean if we have background checks for buying from a dealer, why would a gun show make any difference?

I mean this will not do anything to private sales, but gun shows? One booth set up to do nothing but background checks like any police agency can do. Only takes a few minutes. I just don't see a problem.

PS the moment this background check becomes some kind of registration, I would be against it. A background check is one thing. A database of legal gun owners is another.

Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:

Good point.

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Police associations thought it was OK to use water cannons on people peacefully demonstrating for their civil rights.
Good enough for Catawaba, I guess.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

excellent point. the anti gun extremists tried to prove that the clinton gun bans actually helped. they couldn't. not one study was able to show that the clinton gun bans stopped any crime.

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I'm curious why it appears that you consider everyone who is pro gun control an "extremist"? It seems like every reference you make in your posts to people who disagree with your point of view is labeled an extremist, ignorant, a *****, etc. How come?

Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:

So then what is it? I've traveled the world for many, many years for my job and I find it hard to comprehend why Americans are so violent. Any insights?

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Clearly no short answer. But here goes.

1) We are a country born of violence. Not so much the Revolutionary or Civil Wars, but rather we expanded westward for about 250 years in a constant war against the Native Americans. The frontier was always violent, and I think that the root of our gun culture. Every inch of our expansion westward, starting in MA and VA in the 1600's, was done gun in hand of at least every male aged 12 or above. The highest loss of American life, as a percentage of our population at the time, in any war, is still King Philips War.

2) Capitalism. As much as I love it, it creates losers. Those who cannot compete. Some turn to crime. Politicians fomenting class warfare does not help.

3) Our ignorance in keeping recreational drugs illegal, incarcerating so many folks who never should have been, creating career criminals.

That's my big 3.

Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:

I'm curious why it appears that you consider everyone who is pro gun control an "extremist"?

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Guessing it has to do with their continued attempts to push gun control laws that will not stop crime and only hinder the law abiding.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Catawba said:

I cite statistics from the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, and you offer only your unsubstantiated lame ass opinions. But at least you numbered your lame ass opinions eh? Thanks for playing!

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the "facts" you quote in no way back up your conclusions

You blather on about millions of people stopped from buying a firearm through a retail dealer

what your facts do not establish

1) were the people who were denied actually prevented from ultimately obtaining a firearm

2) why were so few IF ANY prosecuted

all the stuff you spew is worthless

Re: NRA Newtown response

H. Lee White said:

Police associations thought it was OK to use water cannons on people peacefully demonstrating for their civil rights.
Good enough for Catawaba, I guess.

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Partisans are funny that way.

Catawba said:

So you have nothing to refute the statistics I provided?

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nothing needs refuting,

the crap you posted does not support any additional gun laws

hat some people want more gun laws doesn't establish they are needed-especially if the groups represent big government idiots or anti gun pillowheads like the Million Moron March (which was clinton astro-turf)

and I guess you haven't figured out that Denying someone a gun from a FFL retail operation means nothing if the criminal is

1) NOT prosecuted for PERJURY
2) obtains a weapon from other sources

Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:

I'm curious why it appears that you consider everyone who is pro gun control an "extremist"? It seems like every reference you make in your posts to people who disagree with your point of view is labeled an extremist, ignorant, a *****, etc. How come?

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YOu did not properly read my comments-I didn't say all fans of gun control are anti gun extremists, Some fans of gun control are not-they are merely ignorant, or naive or incapable of rational analysis. Many reflexively support gun control after a massacre and then a week later are worried about the winner of American Idol or what color their daughter's prom dress should be

those who try to get gun control laws passed are anti gun extremists. They hate the thought of private citizens having the means to kill criminals or fight back against "jack booted thugs"

Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:

Partisans are funny that way.

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its funny how some posters bragged about fighting the cops and siding with everything from anti war radicals to the OWS turds but when it comes to gun rights they swallow swill from cops who think owning weapons is a privilege of being a police officer without any rational analysis

I support the police generally
I have spent many years working with or defending police officers
most police officers are good people
but to think police officers have the knowledge or training to say other civilians shouldn't own the same guns these cops are issued is idiotic. Most cops cannot shoot well
most cops are often ignorant of various gun laws

and most cops are not going to outperform people whose main recreational activity is shooting in a crisis or a gun fight

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

its funny how some posters bragged about fighting the cops and siding with everything from anti war radicals to the OWS turds but when it comes to gun rights they swallow swill from cops who think owning weapons is a privilege of being a police officer without any rational analysis

I support the police generally
I have spent many years working with or defending police officers
most police officers are good people
but to think police officers have the knowledge or training to say other civilians shouldn't own the same guns these cops are issued is idiotic. Most cops cannot shoot well
most cops are often ignorant of various gun laws

and most cops are not going to outperform people whose main recreational activity is shooting in a crisis or a gun fight

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I remember during the time when OWS was in the news all the time, and some were all upset about police brutality; now, it seems that they only trust the police the weapons. . . . and criminals :2razz:

Re: NRA Newtown response

ChrisL said:

I remember during the time when OWS was in the news all the time, and some were all upset about police brutality; now, it seems that they only trust the police the weapons. . . . and criminals :2razz:

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its amazing, the people who generally whine about the "pigs" violating the civil rights of peaceful anarchists, communists, Earth First, and other whacks are the same people who want the cops to have a monopoly on legal firepower

well if one doesn't trust the police, one would think you'd want some counterbalance to the force they have

what it comes down to is that the radical left hates the NRA and honest gun owners more than cops. it probably comes down to the fact that the radical left does like big brother deep down even if big brother sometimes kicks their asses

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

its amazing, the people who generally whine about the "pigs" violating the civil rights of peaceful anarchists, communists, Earth First, and other whacks are the same people who want the cops to have a monopoly on legal firepower

well if one doesn't trust the police, one would think you'd want some counterbalance to the force they have

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One would think.

what it comes down to is that the radical left hates the NRA and honest gun owners more than cops. it probably comes down to the fact that the radical left does like big brother deep down even if big brother sometimes kicks their asses

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It sure seems like it. Traitors. :roll:

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Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

what it comes down to is that the radical left hates the NRA and honest gun owners more than cops. it probably comes down to the fact that the radical left does like big brother deep down even if big brother sometimes kicks their asses

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the only tweak I would make is that the left IS big brother. Nanny State, big government Statists supporters always prefer to give up rights in the hopes that they will be the favored class after the supposed revolution.