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NRA Newtown response [W:818]

Re: NRA Newtown response

H. Lee White said:
Same here - none are registered.
For whatever reason, people seem to think that gun registration is common.
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It soon may be, if those demorat congress critters get their way. ;)
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

H. Lee White said:
Same here - none are registered.
For whatever reason, people seem to think that gun registration is common.
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Doesn't your gun have a serial number on it? Isn't that number (and gun) registered to you in your name?
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Do you know what percentage of gun violence / murders annually in the USA are committed as a "crime of passion" not by criminals but by registered gun users? Is there any correlation to crimes of passion gun incidents and non-registered guns?
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not many because most states don't register gun owners.

crimes of passion do not involve someone getting mad-going to a gun store, filling out the paperwork and then shooting someone

that is called premeditated first degree murder

more than three quarters of all murder victims have criminal records
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
more than three quarters of all murder victims have criminal records
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Is that true? Can you show me a link to that? Seems hard to believe.

Re your crimes of passion reply - I was not suggesting that they premeditate by going to buy a gun to kill rather that they use a gun they already own to kill. I thought there was a stat that a majority of murders are committed between people who know each other?
 
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Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
not many because most states don't register gun owners.

crimes of passion do not involve someone getting mad-going to a gun store, filling out the paperwork and then shooting someone

that is called premeditated first degree murder

more than three quarters of all murder victims have criminal records
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In case you have not yet noticed, most of those sqealing for gun control could care less about most gun crime. They get their panties in a wad very selectively when "innocent white folks" are the victims, the shooting occurs in their "safe" neighborhoods, the shooter is white and a "scary gun" (AW) is used. Statistics show that this type of crime is extremely rare, yet that is never mentioned, it is simply lumped in with all of the "regular" gun crime and the total presented to seem like this is a "typical" (representative?) gun crime that simply had a high victim count only because of the "scary gun" used. Mowing down little kids and unarmed teachers packed into a gym does not require any special skill or special type of firearm, yet many seem to concentrate on the need for "certain" firearms to be removed from the planet. Meanwhile, back in the hood, gangs and thugs continue to do battle (without massive press coverage), using mostly large caliber handguns, catching hundreds of innocents in the crossfire, yet the liberals can conceive of no way to control that, or even seem to care. Although the state of Connecticut has more people than the city of Chicago, Connecticut had only 94 gun crime deaths in 2011, about 1/4 of what the city of Chicago alone had.

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Is that true? Can you show me a link to that? Seems hard to believe.

Re your crimes of passion reply - I was not suggesting that they premeditate buy going to buy a gun to kill rather that they use a gun they already own to kill. I thought there was a stat that a majority of murders are committed between people who know each other?
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that is true-one gangbanger shooting another, one dealers shooting another etc


Here are some sources--I note that in many cases victims of murder had juvenile records which are not listed as "criminal records

Murder Victim Studies

84% of victims had records or intoxicated


Criminals target each other, trend shows - USATODAY.com


n Baltimore, about 91% of murder victims this year had criminal records, up from 74% a decade ago, police reported.


What Percentage Of Murder Victims Have A Criminal Record? | Extrano's Alley, a gun blog

Between 87 and 91 percent of homicide victims have been either arrested for or convicted of a felony. (This includes many “victims” of self defense shootings.)


GunCite: Gun Control - Gun Homicides


ontrary to myth and misrepresentation, most murders are not committed by previously law-abiding citizens either going berserk, or because a gun was handy during a moment of uncontrollable rage: suddenly "blow-away" their spouse, friend, neighbor, acquaintance, or all four.

Studies conducted at both the local and national level indicate the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people with previous criminal records. Even a significant percentage of homicide victims themselves have criminal records.

Domestic homicides as well are preceded by a long history of violence. The "crime of passion" homicide is much more the exception rather than the rule.

Murder victimization is not egalitarian
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Doesn't your gun have a serial number on it? Isn't that number (and gun) registered to you in your name?
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no but if the ATF were to inspect the 4473 records of several gunshops they would see that I had bought lots of guns but there is no registration
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

ttwtt78640 said:
In case you have not yet noticed, most of those sqealing for gun control could care less about most gun crime. They get their panties in a wad very selectively when "innocent white folks" are the victims, the shooting occurs in their "safe" neighborhoods, the shooter is white and a "scary gun" (AW) is used. Statistics show that this type of crime is extremely rare, yet that is never mentioned, it is simply lumped in with all of the "regular" gun crime and the total presented to seem like this is a "typical" (representative?) gun crime that simply had a high victim count only because of the "scary gun" used. Mowing down little kids and unarmed teachers packed into a gym does not require any special skill or special type of firearm, yet many seem to concentrate on the need for "certain" firearms to be removed from the planet. Meanwhile, back in the hood, gangs and thugs continue to do battle (without massive press coverage), using mostly large caliber handguns, catching hundreds of innocents in the crossfire, yet the liberals can conceive of no way to control that, or even seem to care. Although the state of Connecticut has more people than the city of Chicago, Connecticut had only 94 gun crime deaths in 2011, about 1/4 of what the city of Chicago alone had.

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan
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I h ave noticed that most on this board who squeal for gun laws want to hassle conservative gun owners far more than they want to actually impact murderers, robbers or gang bangers

criminals tend not to vote for Republican candidates but many gun owners do
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
I h ave noticed that most on this board who squeal for gun laws want to hassle conservative gun owners far more than they want to actually impact murderers, robbers or gang bangers

criminals tend not to vote for Republican candidates but many gun owners do
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Their concern for the poor is so extreme, for the right to vote themselves handouts, that even getting a state issued, photo ID is far too much gov't control, yet no such concern exists for the right of the poor (or anyone else) to have the right to keep and bear arms; that, they insist, should require expensive classes, tests and large fees in addition to a valid, state issued, photo ID. Hmm...
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

haymarket said:
I have seen some present statistics on that and I have also read criticisms of those same statistics.

But rather than get into that, I think the challenge of White and others should be looked at. They want a law which will prevent mass killing incidents like this latest one. That is the same thing Australia wanted. And that is what they got. It was extremely successful in that goal.

Editorial: Australian gun control holds lessons for U.S.
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Yeah, let's cherry pick information so it will fit the narrative.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

apdst said:
Yeah, let's cherry pick information so it will fit the narrative.
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Cherry picking the information!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :doh:roll:

An amazing statement without regard for fact or reality.

Several here on the right of this issue from Lee White to Goshin have challenged people to come up with proposals which specifically would end these type of events. That is what happened in Australia. That is the law they crafted. And they got wonderful results eliminating such atrocities.

The results are hard to argue with. According to a Harvard University study, 13 gun massacres (in which four or more people died) occurred in the 18 years before the law was enacted. In the 16 years since there has been none. Zero.

The overall firearm homicide rate dropped from 0.43 per 100,000 in the seven years before the law to 0.25 in the seven years after. By 2009, the rate had dropped further, to just 0.1 per 100,000, or one per million.

In the USA, the 2009 firearm homicide rate was 3.3 per 100,000, some 33 times higher than Australia's.
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While you call that 'cherry picking' others would call it the mere recitation of facts which were asked for and given.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Redress said:
The second amendment hurdle is the big one, but the effects of gun restrictions on a nationwide level is highly debated among those those who have studied it professionally, with the basic belief being that there simply is not enough accurate data to draw real conclusions from. We can see from looking at other countries that with enough restrictions, gun violence will be reduced, given enough time(see, Japan). Just because you do not like an argument does not mean it is not as defensible as your arguments.
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Whoa. Faulty cause and effect. Japan rates exceedingly low in all crimes, to include simple assault, and they did not have to ban forearms and fists to do it. Further, such as Switzerland has about as many households with guns as the US (although less guns per household), and their gun crime is tiny compared to us.

Evidence clearly shows that its not "gun control" that separates our crime rates from others.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Eighty Deuce said:
Whoa. Faulty cause and effect. Japan rates exceedingly low in all crimes, to include simple assault, and they did not have to ban forearms and fists to do it. Further, such as Switzerland has about as many households with guns as the US (although less guns per household), and their gun crime is tiny compared to us.

Evidence clearly shows that its not "gun control" that separates our crime rates from others.
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Indeed. The only reason the gun-banning bedwetter crowd has to show that there are "arguments on both sides" is to rely on fallacious reasoning. There is only one side that the facts are on. Gun banning truly changes nothing.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Guy Incognito said:
Indeed. The only reason the gun-banning bedwetter crowd has to show that there are "arguments on both sides" is to rely on fallacious reasoning. There is only one side that the facts are on. Gun banning truly changes nothing.
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Exactly. What the gun banners fail to account for is enforcement. If we had sufficient policing efficiency to enforce a total gun ban (getting all 300,000,000+ of them collected, and ensuring that no more crop up) then that same super efficient policing force could just as easily identify and arrest just the 20,000 felons that use them to commit crime.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

ttwtt78640 said:
Exactly. What the gun banners fail to account for is enforcement. If we had sufficient policing efficiency to enforce a total gun ban (getting all 300,000,000+ of them collected, and ensuring that no more crop up) then that same super efficient policing force could just as easily identify and arrest just the 20,000 felons that use them to commit crime.
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you guys keep thinking that crime control is what motivates these gun haters and all we need to do is show them that their schemes won't work

that is not the point of their schemes. its to harass lawful gun owners
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

Eighty Deuce said:
Evidence clearly shows that its not "gun control" that separates our crime rates from others.
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So then what is it? I've traveled the world for many, many years for my job and I find it hard to comprehend why Americans are so violent. Any insights?
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
So then what is it? I've traveled the world for many, many years for my job and I find it hard to comprehend why Americans are so violent. Any insights?
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its sure not our gun laws
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
you guys keep thinking that crime control is what motivates these gun haters and all we need to do is show them that their schemes won't work

that is not the point of their schemes. its to harass lawful gun owners
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Surely you can't believe what you wrote? I think it's pretty self-centered to think that gun owners are so powerful that harassing them to get even is the objective. That's nonsense IMHO.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Surely you can't believe what you wrote? I think it's pretty self-centered to think that gun owners are so powerful that harassing them to get even is the objective. That's nonsense IMHO.
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have you read the posts on this board? lots of bitching about the NRA. DId you see all the insane loons protesting against the NRA on the news. why is it that almost every person demanding more gun control liberal or more left?
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
Surely you can't believe what you wrote? I think it's pretty self-centered to think that gun owners are so powerful that harassing them to get even is the objective. That's nonsense IMHO.
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Most libertarians believe that everyone is out to get them.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
have you read the posts on this board? lots of bitching about the NRA. DId you see all the insane loons protesting against the NRA on the news. why is it that almost every person demanding more gun control liberal or more left?
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This board is not a representative sample of the American public by any measure. Your point about the left is not valid to me anymore than if I were to right "Why is it every person actively pursuing voter suppression is right wing or far right wing?"

I think that there are positions that are always going to be favored by a majority of one party that the other party finds repugnant. We could both list countless points that would qualify but that is what separates the Blue from the Red. If I were trying to be cute or funny I would start calling red staters the "Red Menance" just to annoy. It would be similar to those who think people are less "macho" because they support more gun regulation. Both points are idiotic.
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
This board is not a representative sample of the American public by any measure. Your point about the left is not valid to me anymore than if I were to right "Why is it every person actively pursuing voter suppression is right wing or far right wing?"

I think that there are positions that are always going to be favored by a majority of one party that the other party finds repugnant. We could both list countless points that would qualify but that is what separates the Blue from the Red. If I were trying to be cute or funny I would start calling red staters the "Red Menance" just to annoy. It would be similar to those who think people are less "macho" because they support more gun regulation. Both points are idiotic.
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I have been dealing with the anti gun leaders for years. I have personally debated Pete Shields, Sarah Brady and Howard metzenbaum and a bunch of less well known gun banners.

And there is no doubt in my mind they are either motivated by mental issues (Shields and Brady both had family members shot)or power/politics or both

Sarah Brady went from a second string B list washington insider before her husband was crippled to rich and powerful. She claimed for years all she wanted was a background check-the minute that passed she was on the assault weapon bandwagon because she was not about to give up the fame and power

and she is a liar. every time a state contemplated CCW laws Brady was there flapping her gums about how BLOOD WOULD RUN IN THE STREET. maybe the first couple times you could write off her idiocy as speculation. But after 40+ states passed those laws and there were years of evidence available, she continues to spew that crap and by now she has to
know that her claims are specious.

same with the assault weapon ban. I don't think DIFI or Schumer are stupid. Schumer bragged that when the first AWB was passed he was going to stick it to the NRA with other laws that had no relevance to deterring crime
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:
have you read the posts on this board? lots of bitching about the NRA. DId you see all the insane loons protesting against the NRA on the news. why is it that almost every person demanding more gun control liberal or more left?
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One other thing I feel compelled to write about your comment about the loony left. Compared to the Birthers, Anti-Immigrant, Anti New Tax right wing the loony left is a whole lot more mainstream than the crazies on the right....IMHO....
 
Re: NRA Newtown response

jakiejakester said:
One other thing I feel compelled to write about your comment about the loony left. Compared to the Birthers, Anti-Immigrant, Anti New Tax right wing the loony left is a whole lot more mainstream than the crazies on the right....IMHO....
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I'd rather stick to the topic and on this topic the posts that have no basis in reason are coming from the ARC though I disagree with the NRA on putting cops in every school.

I want staff members who WANT TO CARRY carrying, I want me and my wife when we go to school functions able to carry.
 
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