NRA Newtown response [W:818]

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

The NRA may've not limited to that, but they choose to make that their focus which is the ridiculous part. Even if we accept the premise that Violent Movies or Video Games substantially impacts (substantially enough to warrant being greatly singled out by the NRA) people to help create these kind of incidents, it still isn't worthy of such condemnation because the far greater point would be the PARENTS who allow their children to partake in such things. However, by focusing on such ridiculous things as blaming Video Games and Movies the NRA is highlighting the apparent feeling that society or the government should be taking the steps to "parent" children rather than putting it on the parents. It's amazing that apparently "guns don't kill people" but violent video games do. Did they say that directly? No, but they said it in the same general vain that anti-gun people say it about guns which causes the NRA types to launch the critique of "guns don't kill people", so the label fits.

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do you know what is ridiculous? that the anti gun assholes in the press and politicians blame or insinuate that the NRA has any blame whatsoever in this massacre. The laws in place in CT were ones that the brady thugs approved of-registration of guns, waiting periods etc and gun free zones.

why is the NRA even forced to respond when it should be the assholes who created a gun free killing zone or the fact that when the nut job tried to buy a gun and was denied no one acted upon is attempt to improperly obtain a weapon through legal sources?

Re: NRA Newtown response

Catawba said:

You would think so, thats exactly why I question your frequent claims to be an attorney. You have provided zero evidence of being better educated in your debates with me.

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I don't need to, I actually respond to what you say while you dishonestly misrepresent my posts. You make claims that find no support in my posts such as me noting that a massacre is a crime and you claiming that means I consider a massacre the same as robbery

most of your posts on this issue are dishonest, lies are complete misrepresentations

I believe the reason for that is that your real motivations are not the facade you proffer to this board.

its all about sticking it to conservative gun owners. that is the one motivation that is consistent in your myriad posts on a subject you continually demonstrate that you know very little about

Re: NRA Newtown response

Catawba said:

Crime is not what Americans are agonizing over, it is the needless slaughter of innocent people by cowards with guns.

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TurtleDude said:

that's a crime

DUH

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Catawba said:

I see, you have trouble differentiating a robbery with the slaughter of innocent people. Thanks for the info. That helps explain a lot!

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Re: NRA Newtown response

Catawba said:

..............

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you claimed that a massacre is not a crime, I said it was

nothing more nothing less. what you should have said is that gun crime including the constant killing of Black Youth in gun ban areas like Chicago and DC does not upset the media or the Brady bunch, rather they see the slaughter of white children in an upper middle class area as far more useful in fueling their anti gun agendas

that is the accurate statement

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

The NRA may've not limited to that, but they choose to make that their focus which is the ridiculous part. Even if we accept the premise that Violent Movies or Video Games substantially impacts (substantially enough to warrant being greatly singled out by the NRA) people to help create these kind of incidents, it still isn't worthy of such condemnation because the far greater point would be the PARENTS who allow their children to partake in such things. However, by focusing on such ridiculous things as blaming Video Games and Movies the NRA is highlighting the apparent feeling that society or the government should be taking the steps to "parent" children rather than putting it on the parents. It's amazing that apparently "guns don't kill people" but violent video games do. Did they say that directly? No, but they said it in the same general vain that anti-gun people say it about guns which causes the NRA types to launch the critique of "guns don't kill people", so the label fits.

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See what I bolded ? That is one more massive strawman. The NRA has not said that government needs to fix the family. And they sure as crap harbor no illusion that government will fix it ! No Conservative does ! We expect the opposite. That government will not fix the decay. With the creep of liberalism, its only going to get worse. The "if it feels good, do it" mentality that has grown since the 60's. The "if things suck for you, its someone else's fault", fomented by no less than der Leader Obama ! This is where we are headed, deeper into the morass, and the NRA knows it.

That is why the NRA identified the best available solution. Someone to shoot back if need be. aka "fire prevention".

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

do you know what is ridiculous? that the anti gun assholes in the press and politicians blame or insinuate that the NRA has any blame whatsoever in this massacre. The laws in place in CT were ones that the brady thugs approved of-registration of guns, waiting periods etc and gun free zones.

why is the NRA even forced to respond when it should be the assholes who created a gun free killing zone or the fact that when the nut job tried to buy a gun and was denied no one acted upon is attempt to improperly obtain a weapon through legal sources?

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Well the NRA lobbies for the most stupid things. All they care about is gun sales. They used to be an org all about gun safety, now it's all about gun sales. Any proposals that have gun sales limitation, no matter how heinous, they lobby against it. i.e...

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

why is the NRA even forced to respond

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I'm sorry but what? Forced? No, the NRA chose to announce to the press they were going to be speaking. CHOSE to do a big press conference speaking about things. and CHOSE to say the ridiculous things they stated. That wasn't "forced". Was the coverage and attacks on them at times idiotic? Absolutely....but that doesn't magically mean they were "Forced" to do anything nor does it negate their own idiocy.

Re: NRA Newtown response

poweRob said:

Well the NRA lobbies for the most stupid things. All they care about is gun sales. They used to be an org all about gun safety, now it's all about gun sales. Any proposals that have gun sales limitation, no matter how heinous, they lobby against it. i.e...

The Bush administration urged Congress to pass a law barring people on the terrorist watch list from buying explosives and guns. The gun lobby objected. Now the Obama administration is urging Congress to pass the same legislation, and the gun lobby continues to object.

link...​

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the NRA isn't perfect but they are far more honest than any of the anti gun groups

the NRA hates these massacres-the leaders of the gun ban groups welcome them

your claim is a lie btw. 95% of the people who have carry licenses were trained by NRA instructors. the NRA is state of the art in this area.

if the dems had not begun in the 1960s using Gun control as a facade to escape the legitimate charge that the Dems were soft on crime, the NRA never would have had to become a lobbying group. its your side that started attacking gun rights

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

I'm sorry but what? Forced? No, the NRA chose to announce to the press they were going to be speaking. CHOSE to do a big press conference speaking about things. and CHOSE to say the ridiculous things they stated. That wasn't "forced". Was the coverage and attacks on them at times idiotic? Absolutely....but that doesn't magically mean they were "Forced" to do anything nor does it negate their own idiocy.

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so I guess you were ignorant of the thousands of comments in the media about why the NRA was being silent?

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

so I guess you were ignorant of the thousands of comments in the media about why the NRA was being silent?

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Oh, gotcha.

Media commenting about the NRA = "Force"

Bull****, and the type of bull**** that if this was flipped you'd be railing at people against.

The NRA wasn't "forced" to do anything. They CHOSE to respond. And in their response they acted like the anti-gun people and decided to go on a moralistic crusade pointing the finger at some other secondary target as being to blame, in this case not one protected by the 2nd but one protected by the 1st.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

I'm sorry but what? Forced? No, the NRA chose to announce to the press they were going to be speaking. CHOSE to do a big press conference speaking about things. and CHOSE to say the ridiculous things they stated. That wasn't "forced". Was the coverage and attacks on them at times idiotic? Absolutely....but that doesn't magically mean they were "Forced" to do anything nor does it negate their own idiocy.

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So let's put on blinders to how the politics of this works !! Is this strawman kill night for you ? You got about four under your belt now.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

Oh, gotcha.

Media commenting about the NRA = "Force"

Bull****, and the type of bull**** that if this was flipped you'd be railing at people against.

The NRA wasn't "forced" to do anything. They CHOSE to respond. And in their response they acted like the anti-gun people and decided to go on a moralistic crusade pointing the finger at some other secondary target as being to blame, in this case not one protected by the 2nd but one protected by the 1st.

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The "A" in NRA represents "Association". As in dues-paying members. For whose interests the NRA acts. That's 5, btw.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

the NRA isn't perfect but they are far more honest than any of the anti gun groups

the NRA hates these massacres-the leaders of the gun ban groups welcome them

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Really? Because the NRA types seem to be just as quick to rush for calls to remove restrictions on "no gun zones" as anti-gun folks are to call for further restrictions on guns. Not to mention that every time the these incidents happen gun sales spike as people freak out over Democrats threatening to take regulatory action. Not to mention, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NRA donations spike during these situations because both sides politicize it so.

Spare me, both sides realize this kind of thing does nothing but give them an outlet to push their political message and get their principles riled up. Both have sympathizes for the victims, but both sides primary goal it seems is "How can I quickly make this advantageous for me politically"

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

Oh, gotcha.

Media commenting about the NRA = "Force"

Bull****, and the type of bull**** that if this was flipped you'd be railing at people against.

The NRA wasn't "forced" to do anything. They CHOSE to respond. And in their response they acted like the anti-gun people and decided to go on a moralistic crusade pointing the finger at some other secondary target as being to blame, in this case not one protected by the 2nd but one protected by the 1st.

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they were put in a no win situation and we both know it

and its obvious to me that getting the NRA is what really motivates most of this BS feigned indignation from the press and the turds like Fineswine. and what they should have done is this

1) the weapons in question are the ones that every governmental unit in the USA has decreed are the most suitable tools for civilian employees to use for self defense against criminals in urban environments

2) gun free zones are what attracts killers-rather than calling for the untenable solution of having armed cops in every school support choice-if teachers and adminstrators want to pack they should be able to if they get a CCW. the uncertainty of which school has armed adults is almost as good a deterrent as cops and a cop would be the most likely first target of a premeditated active shooting.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Eighty Deuce said:

So let's put on blinders to how the politics of this works !! Is this strawman kill night for you ? You got about four under your belt now.

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Please, explain to me how politics "Forced" the NRA to respond.

I'm all ears.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

2) gun free zones are what attracts killers-rather than calling for the untenable solution of having armed cops in every school support choice-if teachers and adminstrators want to pack they should be able to if they get a CCW. the uncertainty of which school has armed adults is almost as good a deterrent as cops and a cop would be the most likely first target of a premeditated active shooting.

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So are you suggesting that if you put guns in the hands of teachers, those intent to kill their school mates will not find other methods of doing it other than going in guns a blazing?

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

Please, explain to me how politics "Forced" the NRA to respond.

I'm all ears.

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you don't think thousands of comments about the NRA "Failing to respond" didn't happen

forced perhaps you are right

but the media wanted to blame the NRA and you know damn well what happens if you don't respond in an environment where the press has blamed you for something

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

So are you suggesting that if you put guns in the hands of teachers, those intent to kill their school mates will not find other methods of doing it other than going in guns a blazing?

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that makes no sense. we are talking about the proper response to active shooters not someone flying a plane into PS 121 or driving a truck loaded with high explosives into the auditorium during a school meeting

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

the NRA isn't perfect but they are far more honest than any of the anti gun groups

the NRA hates these massacres-the leaders of the gun ban groups welcome them

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They are human. I'm sure they are appalled. But when it comes to their organization, they sat quiet for a week, shut down their facebook posts and website updates, then decided at a press conference to do a completely ridiculous deflection of blaming video games and music. We went throught this **** in the 80's when suicidal teens blew their brains out and parents sued Judas Priest. Individually I have no doubt these NRA folk feel horrible and are saddened... as an organization, their actions showed that they are in self preservation mode and came out pointing fingers. You're right, they didn't have to say a damn thing. And they probably shouldn't have. IMO, they should've been business as usual and kept up their facebook and website talking about gun safety. They played this abhorently.

TurtleDude said:

your claim is a lie btw. 95% of the people who have carry licenses were trained by NRA instructors. the NRA is state of the art in this area.

if the dems had not begun in the 1960s using Gun control as a facade to escape the legitimate charge that the Dems were soft on crime, the NRA never would have had to become a lobbying group. its your side that started attacking gun rights

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I'm sure they still have lots of gun safety, but they publicly push for gun sales more than anything. At least that's what their lobbying congress seems to be all about.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

they were put in a no win situation and we both know it

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Absolutely they got stuck in a no win situation. That still didn't "force" them to have to respond, nor did it "force" them to respond in part by taking the same types of asinine action that anti-gun folks have been taking. That was their CHOICE.

Instead, they succeeded to take a no win situation, and actually create a worse third option to go down...Respond, and Respond poorly.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

Absolutely they got stuck in a no win situation. That still didn't "force" them to have to respond, nor did it "force" them to respond in part by taking the same types of asinine action that anti-gun folks have been taking. That was their CHOICE.

Instead, they succeeded to take a no win situation, and actually create a worse third option to go down...Respond, and Respond poorly.

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I find it interesting that the press never jumps on the brady thugs who appear as if they welcome these sorts of massacres. I find it interesting I haven't seen any posts from you noting how idiotic it is for the anti gun goons to whine about gun laws when the CT gun laws were ones the Brady thugs loved (well I know they prefer complete bans but they cannot come out and say that)

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

that makes no sense. we are talking about the proper response to active shooters not someone flying a plane into PS 121 or driving a truck loaded with high explosives into the auditorium during a school meeting

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If you're SINGULARLY talking about "active shooters", then massively limiting legal guns would also allow for a decline in these kind of things happening. SINGULARLY talking about "active shooter" situations and nothing else is idiotic, for one of the specific reason that is used often in arguing against the notion of gun bans. People who want to kill will go about finding ways to do it. Arming teachers just likely spurs a different situation to occur.

Does that mean I'm necessarily against removing the notion of a "no gun zone" from schools? No. It means I don't buy the bull**** that the push for it is because of situations like this....situations like this just give people like you and the NRA the same thing people like Catawba and other anti-gun folks get from it. Emotional tools that you can use to bludgeon your political points you're invested in, simply the latest pawn in both sides constant little game.

Re: NRA Newtown response

Zyphlin said:

Really? Because the NRA types seem to be just as quick to rush for calls to remove restrictions on "no gun zones" as anti-gun folks are to call for further restrictions on guns. Not to mention that every time the these incidents happen gun sales spike as people freak out over Democrats threatening to take regulatory action. Not to mention, I'd bet dollars to donuts that NRA donations spike during these situations because both sides politicize it so.

Spare me, both sides realize this kind of thing does nothing but give them an outlet to push their political message and get their principles riled up. Both have sympathizes for the victims, but both sides primary goal it seems is "How can I quickly make this advantageous for me politically"

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I wouldn't want to no gun zone to be absolutely lifted. I would want it so only guards and teachers/staff are allowed weapons. Still dont want random people walking through school with a gun.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

I find it interesting that the press never jumps on the brady thugs who appear as if they welcome these sorts of massacres. I find it interesting I haven't seen any posts from you noting how idiotic it is for the anti gun goons to whine about gun laws when the CT gun laws were ones the Brady thugs loved (well I know they prefer complete bans but they cannot come out and say that)

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Not my fault you're so far up your own ego on these type of topics that you don't bother to read the threads you're posting in let alone others. From a few posts up.

Zyphlin said:

One side rants and raves about "assault weapon bans" not because it'd do a damn thing (note, the most famous school massacre? Occurred during the last "assault weapons ban" period). To them these things are nothing but an opportunity to continue to push their point they've been pushing since the AWB expired...this just gives them cover to do it yet again. The killer could've used a 6 shooter or muzzle loader and I guarantee we'd still be hearing about an "assault weapon ban".

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You're Catawba, just with a different color of body paint and a different team chant to bellow out while the two sides of the soccer hooligan type of clash go at it. Grab the nearest dead body and start wielding it like a club and make sure to keep pushing that political message...there's points to be scored. Your side can do not wrong, must be defended in all things at all times at all costs, and anything they do in error must not be pointed out because by god you can't attack your side. You may argue the positives of your side more intelligently, but you're just as slovenly beholden to pushing the party line and wearing blinders to your sides own issues while going out of your way to excuse and justify it.

The NRA is as shameful in this as the anti-gun folks, who I've largely had issues with and spoken my issues towards since this thing began. From the start I've been critical of the idiotic notion of focusing on guns or blaming guns for violence...and that same level and type of idiocy being applied to Video Games and Movies deserves the same type of scorn. For weeks we had people on this forum defending against the anti-gun folks, making arguments like blame the person not the weapon, or suggesting that some people are just evil and it has nothing to do with guns. Yet the NRA comes out and spends part of their "statement" ranting and raving about violent video games and movies as being to blame.....and not a peep, rather, lets all just clap along and applaud the NRA and go after those that dare to suggest their ****ty views are ALSO ****ty.

Re: NRA Newtown response

TurtleDude said:

you don't think thousands of comments about the NRA "Failing to respond" didn't happen

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Wonder if ED will have a "strawman" tracker for you. My guess? No.

Never stated I don't think comments about the NRA failing to respond didn't happen. Please, highlight where I've stated that. I've acknowledged their lack of response was noted by the media. I fully agree that they were being attacked for "failing to respond".

My bone of contention was with the notion they were "forced" into respond. They choose to respond and they choose to respond in the method they did.