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Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

Grant said:
Now you just quoted me and nowhere does it say that. Please respond only to what I said, not what you think I said. And no, the left have few morals.


Cannot defeat you? Have you been through an airport recently where Americans are intimately searched without due process? Where new rules and regulations and cropping up every day? Where the government will force you to buy something whether you want it or not? Where Americans have now become hard line red or blue? Where Is that the new American idea of freedom? Your moral center is no better than any other, and most leftists don't even know where or how they received any 'moral center' they might have.

Do you seriously believe the United States will regain its former glory when they stood for freedom all over the world? Britain seamlessly conceded power to the United States but who gets to be the next dominant power?
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What glory we've lost, they, OBL and company, didn't take it. Nor are reasonable precautions meaning we lost anything. You seem to me to fear too much and think too little of your country and the principles she was built upon.

And no, the logical conclusion from your comments were that only leftist have a moral center, believe in this country, and are strong enough to keep faith in troubled times.
 
Henry David said:
I agree. When I use the term 'duly convicted', I mean by a jury of his peers, a fully informed jury of his peers, after an open trial.
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But all of those criteria are largely arbitrary. A jury, of peers, after a trial.... what about on the battlefield, after open hostility, by "the good guys"? To them, being tried in our court system (by their peers, in an trial) would probably be little different. The trial also only covers who "deserves" whatever action is about to happen... not the actual action. Go to prison to have your rights completely remanded and doled out according to a non-elected appointee, up to and including indefinite solitary confinement, OR be questioned with some very advanced and sneaky techniques that leave no scars.
 
Boo Radley said:
What glory we've lost, they, OBL and company, didn't take it.
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Well, that certainly isn't what we endlessly heard from say '03 forward under GWB. Oh, we heard how our troops were storming towns in the dead of night, raping women, and razing communities from the likes of John Kerry, Dick Durbin, and other libs from the house floor, often repeated by willing parrots on the boards. We heard liberals such as yourself rail about how, (let's see what'd you call them?) oh yeah, the "heros in error" falsified intel to lie us into an ignoble war. In fact, liberals own front fighting Bush, what I like to call the Western front, was a classic bleeding heart play, that our enemies cherished, and exploited as much as they could for recruitment.

Nor are reasonable precautions meaning we lost anything.
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And what are these "reasonable" precautions you speak of?

You seem to me to fear too much and think too little of your country and the principles she was built upon.
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Wow, that's rich coming from you Joe...this isn't about your hyperbolic imagination about what emotions others have, but from what I have seen thinking too little of the US is not a problem conservatives have, liberals take that to an art form.

And no, the logical conclusion from your comments were that only leftist have a moral center, believe in this country, and are strong enough to keep faith in troubled times.
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Speaking of morals, isn't gitmo still open?
 
Grant said:
You feel that the United States is in jeopardy of emulating terrorists? No one except leftist Americans and other anti Americans are worried about that.

The terrorists didn't have to defeat America from without, the United States has defeated itself from within.

They cannot win a war any more than they can balance a budget, and their enemies know it. They just need to be patient.
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Leftist Americans and the anti-America crowds around the world live in a warped reality... as to the rest? Sadly , I agree.

It's truly amazing how many Europeans get their ideas of America and its history from the movies. They do take them seriously.
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How do you take someone seriously who honestly thinks that American's view the world through the eyes of Hollywood?

All alien invasions and extra-terrestrial visits to earth take place in Washington, New York or Arizona. Do we really believe that **** too?

All they need do is ask Europeans how grateful they are for Americans saving their asses and they'll get a jolt of reality right quick.
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Especially the French. Damn, if we ever deserved some thanks you would think it would be from them... but nope. Add in all the socialists whacko's living in freedom because of our help instead of living under either Hitler or Stalin and one would think they would see America differently. Sadly... no.

That's an astonishing point of view..

Do you not understand that your enemies, who would kill you without a moment's hesitation, also believe they have the moral high ground?

All of them do. All of them. You should know and understand that.
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Actually I would say that they think that they are the only ones with morals AT ALL.
 
Grant said:
Cannot defeat you? Have you been through an airport recently where Americans are intimately searched without due process? Where new rules and regulations and cropping up every day? Where the government will force you to buy something whether you want it or not? Where Americans have now become hard line red or blue? Where Is that the new American idea of freedom? Your moral center is no better than any other, and most leftists don't even know where or how they received any 'moral center' they might have.

Do you seriously believe the United States will regain its former glory when they stood for freedom all over the world? Britain seamlessly conceded power to the United States but who gets to be the next dominant power?
Click to expand...

We agree to the search though...

What can the government "force" me to buy?
 
j-mac said:
Well, that certainly isn't what we endlessly heard from say '03 forward under GWB. Oh, we heard how our troops were storming towns in the dead of night, raping women, and razing communities from the likes of John Kerry, Dick Durbin, and other libs from the house floor, often repeated by willing parrots on the boards. We heard liberals such as yourself rail about how, (let's see what'd you call them?) oh yeah, the "heros in error" falsified intel to lie us into an ignoble war. In fact, liberals own front fighting Bush, what I like to call the Western front, was a classic bleeding heart play, that our enemies cherished, and exploited as much as they could for recruitment.



And what are these "reasonable" precautions you speak of?



Wow, that's rich coming from you Joe...this isn't about your hyperbolic imagination about what emotions others have, but from what I have seen thinking too little of the US is not a problem conservatives have, liberals take that to an art form.



Speaking of morals, isn't gitmo still open?
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You confuse things concerning 03. Bush hurt our credibility. That's a different issue. He also hard no moral core, lie in an area some of us could not accept, putting Americans in harms way needlessly, and largely did more harm than good concerning the war on terror.

And gitmo being open is the fault of conservative fear mongers as much as anyone else. You want we can revisit the Jordan notion that conservatives are never responsible for their actions. I'll leave that up to you.
 
Boo Radley said:
You confuse things concerning 03. Bush hurt our credibility. That's a different issue. He also hard no moral core, lie in an area some of us could not accept, putting Americans in harms way needlessly, and largely did more harm than good concerning the war on terror.

And gitmo being open is the fault of conservative fear mongers as much as anyone else. You want we can revisit the Jordan notion that conservatives are never responsible for their actions. I'll leave that up to you.
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Purposeful confusion is what people holding your views rely on Joe....Thankfully there are people who know the truth.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
But all of those criteria are largely arbitrary. A jury, of peers, after a trial.... what about on the battlefield, after open hostility, by "the good guys"? To them, being tried in our court system (by their peers, in an trial) would probably be little different. The trial also only covers who "deserves" whatever action is about to happen... not the actual action. Go to prison to have your rights completely remanded and doled out according to a non-elected appointee, up to and including indefinite solitary confinement, OR be questioned with some very advanced and sneaky techniques that leave no scars.
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I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, but the UCMJ is the appropriate set of laws for soldiers on the battlefield.
 
j-mac said:
Purposeful confusion is what people holding your views rely on Joe....Thankfully there are people who know the truth.
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Not sure how I can make you confuse two things. But you have. I can only try to help you see your confusion.
 
Boo Radley said:
Not sure how I can make you confuse two things. But you have. I can only try to help you see your confusion.
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:lamo BWAHHHAAAAA! That's just priceless....As if you know all....What a buffoon. :roll:
 
Henry David said:
I'm not really conflicted, it's just that I keep an open mind when judging certain events.

Regarding 911, what is certain is that it was a false flag operation, and its hallmark was deception and propaganda.
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Your mind is certainly open, I'll give you that.
 
Boo Radley said:
What glory we've lost, they, OBL and company, didn't take it. Nor are reasonable precautions meaning we lost anything. You seem to me to fear too much and think too little of your country and the principles she was built upon.
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Me fear too much?


I would rather walk on to an airplane unmolested and take my chances with the terrorists than having strangers messing with my person. It is obviously the American government who initiated these crazy rules who is running scared here.

Richard Reid had a bomb in his shoe, a member of the public stops him, and now all Americans are having to remove their shoes at airports. Who is running scared here? And who are having the last laugh every time an American is getting strip searched in his own country by his fellow Americans, and without due process? Now that they line up like sheep for this humiliating treatment can cavity searches be far behind?

And no, the logical conclusion from your comments were that only leftist have a moral center, believe in this country, and are strong enough to keep faith in troubled times.
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The left will always keep the faith in troubled times, that's certain. They will never be able to shift course, despite icebergs approaching from every angle. Their faith conquers every reality.
 
Grant said:
Your mind is certainly open, I'll give you that.
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heh, heh....I saw that....Hmmmmm.....HD says "false flag" eh? Could that mean that he is an Alex Jones follower, or just a run of the mill truther?
 
j-mac said:
heh, heh....I saw that....Hmmmmm.....HD says "false flag" eh? Could that mean that he is an Alex Jones follower, or just a run of the mill truther?
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I didn't even want to go there. After reading the first couple of 9/11 theories years ago they all became as boring and contrived as an Obama speech.
 
Henry David said:
I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, but the UCMJ is the appropriate set of laws for soldiers on the battlefield.
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We were talking about laws, and who is subject to them. It is still the "consent of the governed" debate. Unfortunately, consent does not stretch half so far as the ability to project force.

To an AQ fighter, there is no such thing as recognized due process, not administered by Americans at any rate. The point I am trying to make is that there is little in common with the actions of police in a free society and any battlefield, anywhere. We do things in this country as a matter of course that people in other countries find barbaric, and our excuse is "due process". The real question is: well, so what? The right of rule passes to those with the ability to enforce said right... not by some nebulous intangible written on a piece of paper.

Do we throw people into prison? Yeah, we do, and we notionally agree with the methods that put people there and tacitly approve of what happens to them when they are there. My entire point is that there is nothing morally different between what we do to prisoners in this country and what we do to enemy combatants. In both cases, our actions fit the legal definitions of assault and battery. So, we are back to the ends and means argument. Do the ends justify the means? If "torture" was effective at it's stated purpose - gaining information - would it's use have some legitimacy? And further, how should we define "torture"? As wanton brutality that doesn't work? As unsavory methods that should be avoided, regardless of efficacy? As a political third rail?
 
Well, the Consent of the Governed is a noble concept, but nothing more.

If anybody thinks we are governed by "consent of the governed", he or she is kidding herself. ;)
 
Grant said:
Me fear too much?


I would rather walk on to an airplane unmolested and take my chances with the terrorists than having strangers messing with my person. It is obviously the American government who initiated these crazy rules who is running scared here.

Richard Reid had a bomb in his shoe, a member of the public stops him, and now all Americans are having to remove their shoes at airports. Who is running scared here? And who are having the last laugh every time an American is getting strip searched in his own country by his fellow Americans, and without due process? Now that they line up like sheep for this humiliating treatment can cavity searches be far behind?



The left will always keep the faith in troubled times, that's certain. They will never be able to shift course, despite icebergs approaching from every angle. Their faith conquers every reality.
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Yes, your side fears too much. The overreaction was massive. Invaded two countries, cost billions of dollars, spent thousands of lives, spied on very one, removed due process, resorted to torture, and made riding an airplane a real hassle and more. On the list, the most reasonable is the airline bit, despite being an overreaction. You guys didn't change course away from any iceberg, but rammed into as any as possible in a reckless panic, if that's the analogy you want to use.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
It really is unfortunate that "advanced interrogation methods" actually work.
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...and you base this on what?....

(Its nice when people that have no expertise as a witness provide some support for their assertions lest their posts be a waste of cyberspace)
 
upsideguy said:
...and you base this on what?....

(Its nice when people that have no expertise as a witness provide some support for their assertions lest their posts be a waste of cyberspace)
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An understanding of psychology, sociology, and some first hand knowledge. I even spoke to that some later in the thread.

Gonzo Rodeo said:
The common thread between syndromes like Stockholm Syndrome and Battered Person Syndrome is traumatic bonding. The mind's psychological defenses kick in when presented with traumatic situations (not necessarily just physical or emotional abuse), and typical responses include identification with those who appear to be in charge, switching of allegiance, and even the feeling that one's captors are omniscient (especially when exposed to physical violence or the threat of physical violence... but not just in those cases).

Again, though, that's why I said "unfortunately". The methods do, in fact, work, but the basis for their operation are quite unfortunate.
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j-mac said:
Is this the new "bait" Joe? Just keep calling every post an emotional response to bait a rules violation? Grow up will ya?
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Not baiting j. You have refused to answer points but respond ip with silliness. I can only conclude that's all you have. Give a valid response and we might be able tom have a real conversation.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, your side fears too much. The overreaction was massive. Invaded two countries, cost billions of dollars, spent thousands of lives, spied on very one, removed due process, resorted to torture, and made riding an airplane a real hassle and more. On the list, the most reasonable is the airline bit, despite being an overreaction. You guys didn't change course away from any iceberg, but rammed into as any as possible in a reckless panic, if that's the analogy you want to use.
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My side wanted that?

If Obama and the Democrats wants to eliminate body searchs at the airport, or close down Guantanamo, why not do it?

And it is the left who has cut and run from both from Afghanistan and Iraq, as they do from any conflict, and leaving it open to more takeovers of radical Islam, just as has happened in Egypt and soon throughout the Middle East. That's where leftist thinking is especially dangerous. There is no reality. no consideration for the future and no thought of consequences apart from the moment.
 
Grant said:
My side wanted that?

If Obama and the Democrats wants to eliminate body searchs at the airport, or close down Guantanamo, why not do it?

And it is the left who has cut and run from both from Afghanistan and Iraq, as they do from any conflict, and leaving it open to more takeovers of radical Islam, just as has happened in Egypt and soon throughout the Middle East. That's where leftist thinking is especially dangerous. There is no reality. no consideration for the future and no thought of consequences apart from the moment.
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Because the president isn't king. He needed congress and the republican fear machine was quite successful. We cannot pretend we don't remember the events, or that there were not factors that influenced what happened. However, gitmo wasn't on my lst.

As the silly notion of cutting and running, it misses the point that both were an overreaction to begin with, that was ill conceived and did more harm than good.
 
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