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Bin Laden film attacked for 'perpetuating torture myth'

I might not want someone to die to end a conflict, even at might expense. However, all of that really only clouds the issue. The things we have deemed illegal remain illegal. We don't really redefine murder or rape to suit us. Not in the way some have tried to do torture. I don't buy your argument. I still think you are confusing different things. I commend you for a much better discussion than I expected, but they are still very different things.

We define "murder" all the time. The courts handle this. Did that guy with a .08 BAC who ran a red light and killed that girl a murderer, or did he plead down to manslaughter? How about the guy who shoots his wife in the leg after he catches her cheating on him with another man? Attempted murder, or is that assault with a deadly weapon?

Any individual act comes under the subjective microscope. In a few cases we can draw a pretty clear line - the Sandy Hook shooter, for example - yet, if the guy had lived... would he have been tried under the fullest extent of the law, or would an insanity plea get him out of the worst of the punishment? We'll never know, but it just goes to show that even in our most drastic examples there is still some wiggle room for interpretation of a given act.
 
We define "murder" all the time. The courts handle this. Did that guy with a .08 BAC who ran a red light and killed that girl a murderer, or did he plead down to manslaughter? How about the guy who shoots his wife in the leg after he catches her cheating on him with another man? Attempted murder, or is that assault with a deadly weapon?

Any individual act comes under the subjective microscope. In a few cases we can draw a pretty clear line - the Sandy Hook shooter, for example - yet, if the guy had lived... would he have been tried under the fullest extent of the law, or would an insanity plea get him out of the worst of the punishment? We'll never know, but it just goes to show that even in our most drastic examples there is still some wiggle room for interpretation of a given act.
No, we measure what was done against the definition of murder. We don't all of the sudden decide that it isn't murder any more, as was done with water boarding. We don't take an already defined and certain act and then change the definition. No.
 
I used to attend, enjoy and appreciate movies. I consider cinema to be an art form. I also consider documentaries to be a n excellent channel to convey factual information.

Unfortunately it's all been conflated and hollywood and the capitalist economy has thrown money into the mix. I don't care for the *movies* and don't waste my time and money. At my age (old) I've read and seen so many stories (fictional) that it seems that there's not much new. An occasional piece is created which is new in interesting.

The movie in question... pure garbage and not worth seeing nor worth the attention is getting. All making the producers bank account swell. Whether accurate or not... it furthers all the wrong memes we are drowning in.

We really need to move away from the hideous notion that war is good... that people are good and evil and the good can kill and SHOULD kill the evil. Evil is a religious notion. Yes you have severely disturbed and aggressive people. And yes they've managed to poison the minds and control others to do their bidding.

It's all rather mad isn't it?
 
Sometimes they are... but more often then not a movie is mistaken as propoganda when it is just appealing to its market. When filming a war movie Americans generally want to see Americans win. I don't want to watch a movie about My Lai. I want to watch a movie where there are challenges that we face, overcome and win. I don't watch Saving Private Ryan to watch some Germans win and get Ryan.

Also, movies are changing. People want more truth and accuracy in their movies than ever before. I think that a lot of this started with the classic, The Outlaw Josey Wales. The Natives were not bad guys. Whites were bad guys and good guys. It was confusing. It was real.

I agree up to a point, but you miss the fact that "what people" want is often the wrong view of things. Fox News (yes I brought that in) is a classic example. They "make" the news the viewers want... truthful or not. It is no different than the movies. A western from the 1930s portrait the Indians as savages that need put down by the heroic US military. That was the view of the American people, thanks to biased history books and basically a whole country in denial. The reality is that the US military and politicians of the time were brutal mass murderers that committed genocide. Problem is, over the century and a half, the people involved.. Custer, Grant and so on, are seen as American hero's who battled the evil Indian and that view is hard to change. The Japanese are another classic example.. their WW2 record. In total denial.

Movies themselves dont have to be 100% factual per say, but when you make a movie about a historical point in history, then some sort of accuracy is a must.. else it is just another tired propaganda movie....

Let me give you a good example. Many American's believe they won WW2. They were the heroes coming to save their poor European cousins. War movies are always from the American point of view and rarely do we have one from the British/Canadian/French let alone the German. The American trooper never does anything wrong and we both know that is simply not the truth or factually correct. This view is because of their history books and their movies.. especially their movies.

Now the actual factual part of WW2 is a whole different picture. Yes there were many American troops in Europe, but in sheer numbers there were more Russian, and the Brits also had almost 6 million under arms in WW2. And on the battlefield it was the Brits and Russians that were the unsung heroes of the war... take the breakout of Normandy. Movie after movie depicts the brave American GI being the key to breaking out Normandy and start the German retreat across western Europe. Now the reality is that it was actually the British that made it possible because they held a huge amount of German troops in check and defeated them at Caen. The American's basically met very little resistance once they got of the beaches... and yes here they got a lot of resistance. But no one talks much about the battle of Caen in the importance of D-Day and the break out of Normandy. It is the stories of the 101st Airborne, or the 82nd Airborne, or the stories from Omaha and Utah beaches that are used over and over, where as the British and Commonwealth landings on Junno and Sword and Gold are rarely talked about. And when talking about Omaha and Utah, it is rarely mentioned that much of the hardship on those beaches was due to American incompetence rather than planned German resistance. Once in a while it is mentioned in D-Day movies, but is quickly glossed over. Or look at the Mulberry harbors... ever heard of them? British invention, highly successful and key to the landings... the American's dismissed these harbors and the one they had was destroyed to American arrogance and incompetence (they basically did not follow the instructions... ). But without the British Mulberry harbors, then the invasion would have failed. Or the funny tanks that cleared mine fields, or the floating tanks.. all British inventions and yes the American's thought they were failures... because they lost a lot of troops in them.. and they never mention that the troops died because the tanks were released too far from shore... and yet today... the US armed forces use the very same designs in their tanks to clear mines or get tanks to shore.. ironic eh?

Take one of my favorite war movies.. Patton. At the time of the release it was heavily criticized by many because of some of the context. The Battle of Kasserine, one of the biggest defeats in American military history is mentioned in the movie as it is the key part for the appointment of Patton. They show dead GI's... wtf! They show dead GI's being stripped by the locals. They show incompetence undisciplined American troops. All factual and all shocking at the time. And yet they dont in the movie go so far to state that the defeat was due to incompetence from the military brass at the time, combined with lack of training and basic arrogance. But they do portrait the American solider in a negative light.. well barely, which at the time was revolutionary. Up to this movie.. Kasserine was rarely mentioned.. wonder why..

Ever wondered why there are so few movies about America's involvement in WW1? Think about that a bit..

It is things like this that over the last 100 years of cinema history (and especially American cinema) has formed false views of history that we only now are slowly trying to change.

More and more movies are more and more accurate and differ from the usual set view of historical events... there is a long way to go but it is a start.
 
Thank you Pete for the history lesson AND the perspective.

All media.. so called news and infotainment and entertainment misrepresents reality... Welcome to the Truman show. This was the allegory of our times. It's hard to accept that we live in a world which we have very little understanding of and one which we feel we NEED to have a solid basis for reality. It seems real... it seems to make sense.. It DOES make sense... but it make sense as much as any fiction.

It is so interesting now to observe people trying to make sense out of what they get from the media... 9-11... Newtown... any event. They BELIEVE they can get it right and see through the PR... catch the liars in all the tricks... assuming that everyone is an actor playing some role which was given to them.

It's refreshing to read actual factual accounts occasionally.
 
i know how Obama blamed the Libia attack on that youtube video, wonder whats gonna happen now that the Bin Laden movie is coming out
 
No, we measure what was done against the definition of murder. We don't all of the sudden decide that it isn't murder any more, as was done with water boarding. We don't take an already defined and certain act and then change the definition. No.
"What was done" is interpreted subjectively. We judge things like intent, negligence, reasonable responsibility. Killing someone may be considered murder, manslaughter, or self-defense, depending on the jury and how good of a lawyer you have.

By the very same token, certain acts are considered torture when committed by some, but not when committed by others. Solitary confinement remains a sterling example. If I locked you in a small closet for two months, and your only contact with other another human being was the two seconds a day when food got passed to you through a slot, you would considered yourself tortured. Yet this happens in our prison system every single day, and no one calls that torture.
 
"What was done" is interpreted subjectively.


Liberal progressives only interpret things subjectively when it is their own malfeasance they wish to muddy. For example I guarantee that Boo wanted a full declaration of war from the Congress, and signed by the President to go in and unseat the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, but holds a lessor view of our involvement in Lybia, or the unilateral killing of an American turned radical Islamist in Yemen.

Point is that bottom line is that we now live in a highly polarized society in which my guy does something = GOOD! your guy does the same sort of thing = BAD! This is why progressives need so many shades of grey.
 
"What was done" is interpreted subjectively. We judge things like intent, negligence, reasonable responsibility. Killing someone may be considered murder, manslaughter, or self-defense, depending on the jury and how good of a lawyer you have.

By the very same token, certain acts are considered torture when committed by some, but not when committed by others. Solitary confinement remains a sterling example. If I locked you in a small closet for two months, and your only contact with other another human being was the two seconds a day when food got passed to you through a slot, you would considered yourself tortured. Yet this happens in our prison system every single day, and no one calls that torture.

No. If the act is torture, it is same no matter who commits he act. There is no subjectivity.
 
No. If the act is torture, it is same no matter who commits he act. There is no subjectivity.


Inflammatory definitions for political rhetorical purposes aside, was there any prosecutions of torture for those in the US that either ordered EIT, or carried it out? No. Your point is moot.
 
No. If the act is torture, it is same no matter who commits he act. There is no subjectivity.

And if the act is murder, it is murder no matter who commits it... but there are many shades of killing and "murder" is just one of them. Surely you agree that any time someone dies it is not automatically an act murder. Right?
 
Inflammatory definitions for political rhetorical purposes aside, was there any prosecutions of torture for those in the US that either ordered EIT, or carried it out? No. Your point is moot.

You mistake getting away with something as proof it wasn't what it was. Sorry, but that doesn't work logically.
 
And if the act is murder, it is murder no matter who commits it... but there are many shades of killing and "murder" is just one of them. Surely you agree that any time someone dies it is not automatically an act murder. Right?

But each shade has clear definition. Some who plots to kill someone, carries out that plot is a murderer. No shade. Waterboarding has been been defined by US as torture. So, if you weatherboard, there is no shade. It is what it is.
 
But each shade has clear definition. Some who plots to kill someone, carries out that plot is a murderer. No shade. Waterboarding has been been defined by US as torture. So, if you weatherboard, there is no shade. It is what it is.

You're still missing the point. Not everyone who plots to kill someone is called a murderer. For example, a military operation, or a state execution.
 
You're still missing the point. Not everyone who plots to kill someone is called a murderer. For example, a military operation, or a state execution.

Not missing it at all. That is a different thing by definition. We don't call it murder because it isn't murder. There re clear distinctions.
 
And you mistake your ideological labels for facts.

Not at all. It is a fact, not a label, that we called weatherboarding torture long before Iraq. It is your side who have tried to redefine for political reasons, not me.
 
Not at all. It is a fact, not a label, that we called weatherboarding torture long before Iraq. It is your side who have tried to redefine for political reasons, not me.

Not quite sure what "weatherboarding" is....Sounds horrible....Oh my. Look, the only fact here, is that no one has been charged, prosecuted, or convicted of violating ANY laws, US or otherwise...So your fantasy is just that. Sorry. :coffeepap:
 
Not missing it at all. That is a different thing by definition. We don't call it murder because it isn't murder. There re clear distinctions.

Good. You've acknowledged that we have different labels for the same acts in different circumstances.

...if you don't see where this is going by now, you either can't see it or don't want to see it.
 
Not quite sure what "weatherboarding" is....Sounds horrible....Oh my. Look, the only fact here, is that no one has been charged, prosecuted, or convicted of violating ANY laws, US or otherwise...So your fantasy is just that. Sorry. :coffeepap:

Your incorrect. That is but one fact.
 
Good. You've acknowledged that we have different labels for the same acts in different circumstances.

...if you don't see where this is going by now, you either can't see it or don't want to see it.

No. Different acts have different labels. You're trying to make different acts seem like the same. They are not the same.
 
No. Different acts have different labels. You're trying to make different acts seem like the same. They are not the same.

Killing another person is an act.

When the government does it overseas, it's called "combat". When the government does it to one of it's own citizens it has deemed a criminal, it's called "capital punishment." When a citizen does to another citizen on purpose, that is called "murder." When a citizen does it accidentally, it is called "manslaughter." And SOMETIMES a citizen can purposefully kill someone else but it is called manslaughter, and a citizen can accidentally kill someone and they call it murder.

The same act, with different labels.

You're never going to win this one, Mr. Clinton.
 
Killing another person is an act.

When the government does it overseas, it's called "combat". When the government does it to one of it's own citizens it has deemed a criminal, it's called "capital punishment." When a citizen does to another citizen on purpose, that is called "murder." When a citizen does it accidentally, it is called "manslaughter."

The same act, with different labels.

You're never going to win this one, Mr. Clinton.

Yes, killing is an act. But murder and self defense are two different acts. Not the same act. Torture is not legal imprisonment. Two different acts with two different definitions. Throughout this you've tried to make the case that the apple and the tree frog are the same. They are not. We are not redefining murder. The same act is not murder here and self defense there. Each act is different, not the exact same, with different critieria. To accept your version is to be Mr. Clinton, saying that it is how we define acts that are different as if they were the same. They are not.
 
Yes, killing is an act. But murder and self defense are two different acts. Not the same act. Torture is not legal imprisonment. Two different acts with two different definitions. Throughout this you've tried to make the case that the apple and the tree frog are the same. They are not. We are not redefining murder. The same act is not murder here and self defense there. Each act is different, not the exact same, with different critieria. To accept your version is to be Mr. Clinton, saying that it is how we define acts that are different as if they were the same. They are not.

Is being locked in a box all by yourself for months considered torture?
 
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