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White House won't accept new tax offer from Republican leader

Well practically everyone gets Medicare if I remember right, even those with supplemental insurance do to.
Medicare was poorly conceived and poorly designed.

Everybody pretty much becomes eligible but they may have to pay for it. 40 quarters gets you the free hospital side but the other parts are fee contingent (with generous caps). People can go to a primarily private plan with a little subsidy but those are seldom cheap but include other things like glasses/dentists.
 
We have different opinions on the subject. By posting, you volunteered to participate in debate of the subject. So, lets debate. Provide examples and data supporting your view point.

So far, you have only given your opinion, upon what do you base that opinion? I grant that it is indeed your opinion and will not ague that it is not. Apparently because I don't look up the facts of your opinion, you further have the opinion that I am ignorant. Again, that is your opinion, but I don't see from what I have posted that I have demonstrated support of that opinion. And since ignorance is a curable condition, please, educate me on the basis of your opinion, of which, I do plead ignorance since you haven't supported it yet, as to other facts, well, that remains to be demonstrated.

Bush's False Mandate? What the heck are you talking about?

I did provide examples. Some people confuse links with examples. Is that what you're doing?

Bush said he could do what ever he wanted when he won his second term because he had a mandate. Now, you don't really need me t link that, do you? See, in debate, you don't need to link common knowledge. And as you decided to participate in debate, it is expected that you know what is commonly known.

You should also be aware of how politics have been played for some time. You should know both the comment made by a republican that republicans main job was to stop Obama from any success, and the complaints by liberals that democrats repeatedly caved into republicans. These are commonly known. I can link them when I get to a computer, but really you should be aware.
 
Yes, I ignored them, because much like many of your misguided postings, they did not address the topic. So, either offer something relevant, or troll somewhere else. Thank you.

J, that's nonsense. Did you even read it? I spoke both to how we don't have all he details, and the logic of how it likely had to a worse offer to democrats than the cliff. You ignored.
 
Well the GAO say's that if we don't seriously reform entitlement spending, especially Medicare, where gonna be in a world of hurt.

The real debt problem gets lost in fiscal cliff debate - Dec. 11, 2012

Fine. We raise the cap on SS and that's done. Medicare is a little stickier but means testing would help, those that can afford it can pay more. Stiil does nothing about the deficit though since these progams are paid for. What is off the table is reneging on our promise to the millions that have paid into the programs their whole lives. That is unthinkable.
 
What gather from the article is that we don't know what was offered or why it was rejected. While we may want more transparency, we really don't have enough information to make any judgement beyond that.

BTW j, republicans ave been playing their way or the highway for a long time. I wish you were as upset then as you are now.


I repost this j. Focus on the first paragraph.
 
Fine. We raise the cap on SS and that's done. Mediare is a little stickier but means testing would help, those that can afford it can pay more. Stiil does nothing about the deficit though since these progams are paid for.

Medicare and Medicaid together are incredibly unsustainable in their current form.
To "fix" we're going to have to create the ever feared "death panels."
 
Medicare and Medicaid together are incredibly unsustainable in their current form.
To "fix" we're going to have to create the ever feared "death panels."

Funny but every other western nation has no problem taking care of their sick. There must be someting very wrong with us if we are unable to.
 
Funny but every other western nation has no problem taking care of their sick. There must be someting very wrong with us if we are unable to.

Every other nation denies certain types of end of life care, when it's unrealistic to have any effect on the long term outlook on the patients life.
Something we've failed to implement as a cost saving measure.
 
I repost this j. Focus on the first paragraph.

Ok so the second paragraph was gratuitous BS...got it...As to the first, we don't have the transparency, why is that? Didn't Obama promise that bills, and situations like this would be offered on C-SPAN so that they would be totally open? I guess that was Bull too...Look, Obama offered a typical liberal deal with more spending, more taxing, and no cuts, specific or not. To date, I see that the repubs have offered no less than three different deal structures, all to be turned down. And on top of that instead of sitting down and doing the work, Obama goes back out on the trail of lies, and rhetoric. What the hell? You proud of that? It isn't totally up to republicans to completely show their hand while the demo's sit back and continually say not good enough, then blame the disastrous outcome on them...This is dishonest, and foolish...But you voted for it, and Obama is damned well going to own it if repubs know what's good for them.
 
Ok so the second paragraph was gratuitous BS...got it...As to the first, we don't have the transparency, why is that? Didn't Obama promise that bills, and situations like this would be offered on C-SPAN so that they would be totally open? I guess that was Bull too...Look, Obama offered a typical liberal deal with more spending, more taxing, and no cuts, specific or not. To date, I see that the repubs have offered no less than three different deal structures, all to be turned down. And on top of that instead of sitting down and doing the work, Obama goes back out on the trail of lies, and rhetoric. What the hell? You proud of that? It isn't totally up to republicans to completely show their hand while the demo's sit back and continually say not good enough, then blame the disastrous outcome on them...This is dishonest, and foolish...But you voted for it, and Obama is damned well going to own it if repubs know what's good for them.

No j. The second paragraph was just a more minor point.

And neither side is giving us transparency j. My problem is you are dong two things: 1) ignoring the lack of transparency with republicans and 2) making a leap when you don't have all the information. Don't you see this?
 
Medicare and Medicaid can be fixed by means testing and having different buys in based on retirement income.

Medicare and Medicaid can be fixed by allowing the Gubmint, like any other group buyer, to negotiate prices for services and goods.

Most of this I see as posturing and negotiating between Boehner and Obama. Boehner will have to give in eventually and he knows it- he just can't roll over too quickly.

Social Security isn't the drain the military is on the general fund. Removing the cap on social security payroll tax will help, as would means testing- something I hope will be given in on by all sides. Stopping the tax dodge many money managers and CEO practice of calling payroll income anything but. I'd like to see those contractually obligated 'bonuses' (given in good times and bad) be counted as income. No hinky pay schemes to call pay something else.

Those who's TAXABLE income is over $250,000 are NOT middle class. Remember that is TAXABLE income. The top 1.5% makes $250,000 or more in taxable income, hardly Middle Class.

I can see President Obama rejecting the offer to only return the rate for the upper .1% for any meaningful cuts to services.

It is like you giving me a wooden nickle and me giving you tree-fiddy, cash money... :roll:
 
No j. The second paragraph was just a more minor point.

What is your point of saying this?:

BTW j, republicans ave been playing their way or the highway for a long time. I wish you were as upset then as you are now.

And don't you see that it is exactly, and I mean exactly what you claim here:

2) making a leap when you don't have all the information.

But to address your opinion here:

And neither side is giving us transparency j. My problem is you are dong two things: 1) ignoring the lack of transparency with republicans and 2) making a leap when you don't have all the information. Don't you see this?

You're right neither side is giving us transparency, and Boehner is horrible at messaging on this. Obama's, and the demo's blather on this is at best juvenile. Which is why I said what I think the offer should be. As for leap's made, you are doing this as well, as I pointed out, and I only wish you could see that this isn't about me, although I am flattered that you are so obsessed that you think it is, it isn't...You'd do better to stick to the topic, instead of constantly trying to lecture me as if you could.
 
Medicare and Medicaid can be fixed by means testing and having different buys in based on retirement income.

Medicare and Medicaid can be fixed by allowing the Gubmint, like any other group buyer, to negotiate prices for services and goods.

Most of this I see as posturing and negotiating between Boehner and Obama. Boehner will have to give in eventually and he knows it- he just can't roll over too quickly.

Not really gonna fix anything.
Medicare and Medicaid need to start denying cancer treatments and life support to 85 year olds, with very poor prognoses.
Because end of life care, is the lions share of costs for these programs


Social Security isn't the drain the military is on the general fund. Removing the cap on social security payroll tax will help, as would means testing- something I hope will be given in on by all sides. Stopping the tax dodge many money managers and CEO practice of calling payroll income anything but. I'd like to see those contractually obligated 'bonuses' (given in good times and bad) be counted as income. No hinky pay schemes to call pay something else.

That's not true really.
The Big 4, which is SS, Medicare, Medicaid and debt interest are projected to engulf our entire budget in the near future.
Even if you completely eliminate defense spending, the big 4 would still have to be cut.

Those who's TAXABLE income is over $250,000 are NOT middle class. Remember that is TAXABLE income. The top 1.5% makes $250,000 or more in taxable income, hardly Middle Class.

I can see President Obama rejecting the offer to only return the rate for the upper .1% for any meaningful cuts to services.

It is like you giving me a wooden nickle and me giving you tree-fiddy, cash money... :roll:

Fine, you can raise taxes on the wealthy, but what are you going to do to really fix the budget issues we're facing?
 
Not really gonna fix anything.
Medicare and Medicaid need to start denying cancer treatments and life support to 85 year olds, with very poor prognoses.
Because end of life care, is the lions share of costs for these programs




That's not true really.
The Big 4, which is SS, Medicare, Medicaid and debt interest are projected to engulf our entire budget in the near future.
Even if you completely eliminate defense spending, the big 4 would still have to be cut.



Fine, you can raise taxes on the wealthy, but what are you going to do to really fix the budget issues we're facing?

First things first, lets start with what i suggested before marching the elderly off to the ice flows shall we?

Engulf in the near future? entire budget? something more than arm waving please. Never said no cuts, did say means test those applying for them and have a stair step of payment/coverage. please read the entire post before posting the knee jerk responses...

I did suggest a few things, again please read my post before posting the same old knee jerk.... :peace
 
First things first, lets start with what i suggested before marching the elderly off to the ice flows shall we?

Engulf in the near future? entire budget? something more than arm waving please. Never said no cuts, did say means test those applying for them and have a stair step of payment/coverage. please read the entire post before posting the knee jerk responses...

I did suggest a few things, again please read my post before posting the same old knee jerk.... :peace

Did you not read the CNN money article I posted, where the GAO says these things?

I'm proposing a realistic way of cutting costs and no that's not marching the elderly off the cliff.
It's being realistic with the resources we have.

Why should we continue to treat dying people, with medicines intended to cure these people, when the prognosis is not going to change?
The problem is America, is that we're all largely afraid of death and dying.
 
Earlier Boo accused me of not knowing details of what was turned down by Obama, and he was right, but more is coming out...Check this out...

House Speaker John A. Boehner has offered to push any fight over the federal debt limit off for a year, a major concession that would deprive Republicans of leverage in the budget battle but is breathing new life into stalled talks over the year-end “fiscal cliff.”

The offer came Friday, according to people in both parties familiar with the talks, as part of the latest effort by Boehner (R-Ohio) to strike a deal with President Obama to replace more than $500 billion in painful deficit-reduction measures set to take effect in January.

Boehner offers to take debt limit off the table - The Washington Post

This President is intent on neutering congress' ability to oversee the spending...Another constitutional grab.
 
I did provide examples. Some people confuse links with examples. Is that what you're doing?

Bush said he could do what ever he wanted when he won his second term because he had a mandate. Now, you don't really need me t link that, do you? See, in debate, you don't need to link common knowledge. And as you decided to participate in debate, it is expected that you know what is commonly known.

You should also be aware of how politics have been played for some time. You should know both the comment made by a republican that republicans main job was to stop Obama from any success, and the complaints by liberals that democrats repeatedly caved into republicans. These are commonly known. I can link them when I get to a computer, but really you should be aware.

Ok, I see a reference to the OP Article. However I see no other "evidence" supporting your claim nor do I see an relation between the article and the statement you made about Reps. I have reviewed all your post in this thread and not, in a single post have you provided any intelligible or substantial support of our position. The best you have done so far is play semantics, contend that article did not provide enough information (I give you this, as I also found it incomplete, but I did find that it focused on just how much compromise was proposed on the issue that Reps were balking at, but not much on other issues) and other than that, give nothing but poorly referenced, unclear partisan statements, apparently unfounded since you, so far, have failed to support them.

I see a lot of "you should know", everyone knows, etc. but not a thing telling me what you know that you think everyone knows. And yes, I have been paying attention. The Reps have offered up some compromises even before the election. They tried to protect tax hikes, but that is only on objective. And recently they have gone from no tax hikes, to tax reform to ok, higher taxes on those making more than a million. Where are the compromises from Obama and the Dems?

What I get from the OP article.

Cut $600 billion over 10 years, $350 billion of which is Medicare, when he/Dems ran up a deficit of $1.3 trillion last year and $1.6 Trillion the year before that, so in two years, he has overspent a bit short of an annual budget, then plans to balance that out by not spending 20% of that amount over 10 years. BS, they need to cut over $600 Billion in this fiscal year, not spread out over 10 years. I call this BS because in two years, the House comes up for re-election and he cannot even promise today what he can get that congress to agree to and in 4 years, he is gone and the House is re-elected again. There is no way he can promise those cuts will be made any further than two years from now. And how many of those "cuts" are actually just promises not to spend projected growth and how many are really cuts?

Is anyone else confuse on how $600 Trillion in 10 years is supposed to pay back over 4 Trillion in the last 4 years? At his current average, his entire proposed cuts won't even cut in half current deficits if it were cut in 1 year. Exactly how much revenue is his tax hikes supposed to bring in, assuming of course all the rich people don't just loophole out of it, since, at least not mentioned in this article, he is not interested in actually reforming the tax code to stop it? This last is based upon the fact that he previously rejected a proposal to reform the code.

Even as he promises in one breath to cut $600 billion over ten years, he asks for an extra $200 billion for this year.

At this point, Boehner and the republicans should draw up a balanced budget with all the cuts they want, publicly publish all the details and then let Obama take us over the cliff. If all the compromising done so far is not enough for Obama, then to hell with him and the republicans should go back to their original stance.

As to the Bush "false referendum", I am still not clear on what you are trying to say about it, why it was false, or for that matter, what the hell it has to do with the discussion of this thread.
 
Medicare and Medicaid together are incredibly unsustainable in their current form.
To "fix" we're going to have to create the ever feared "death panels."

Or we can start throwing gang bangers out the front door and tell them to patch themselves up when they get shot instead of us paying for it. Maybe tell the welfare queens to pay up or go elsewhere when they come in with their next "welfare check" pregnancy. Or maybe even telling the whole Medicaid crowd to go down the street to the free clinic and take what is given instead of bending over backwards to kiss their ass so that they can "have a choice in care." The next time someone comes in with "No Habla", fine, explain to him/her they have medical care in Mexico or wherever else the snuck in from.

It's time to stop all the BS spending, go back to bare necessities and pay off the debt. No more welfare, no more adult Medicaid, no more HUD, no more funding for Arts, no more PBS, etc. Is it going to hurt people, yes, but the number hurt is going to be far higher when the whole damned mess collapses because it is unsustainable and then it won't just be the lazy and stupid, it will be everyone.
 
Again, what do you think is reasonable? Not spending money on people after a certain age? I'd like to see more money spent before going onto medicare so the problems are addressed early on.

So your fix for the system are the very death panels that were invoked by fearmongering Republicans? The panels were used to scare folks away from Obamacare but you'd bring them in as a fix to Medicare?

There are many reports, many fixes out there. Some look at the Simpson/Bowles panel as a pretty good start.

I don't know how old you are now, but betting you will change your mind as you get older and there is a problem we should address, the voters will not tolerate too much restrictions on the quality of their retirement to include serious medical conditions even if the chance of success is low. Better to fight for a faint hope than lay back and passively await death.

Or, that you don't see your comments as marching the elderly to the ice flows- I didn't say off a cliff- I'll bet you a shiny Texas RepublicII nickle the elderly do... ;)
 
Again, what do you think is reasonable? Not spending money on people after a certain age? I'd like to see more money spent before going onto medicare so the problems are addressed early on.

So your fix for the system are the very death panels that were invoked by fearmongering Republicans? The panels were used to scare folks away from Obamacare but you'd bring them in as a fix to Medicare?

There are many reports, many fixes out there. Some look at the Simpson/Bowles panel as a pretty good start.

I don't know how old you are now, but betting you will change your mind as you get older and there is a problem we should address, the voters will not tolerate too much restrictions on the quality of their retirement to include serious medical conditions even if the chance of success is low. Better to fight for a faint hope than lay back and passively await death.

Or, that you don't see your comments as marching the elderly to the ice flows- I didn't say off a cliff- I'll bet you a shiny Texas RepublicII nickle the elderly do... ;)

Whom were you directing this towards or in argument against? You didn't quote anyone, so not really clear. It is clear that you are responding to something someone said however.
 
What is your point of saying this?:



And don't you see that it is exactly, and I mean exactly what you claim here:



But to address your opinion here:



You're right neither side is giving us transparency, and Boehner is horrible at messaging on this. Obama's, and the demo's blather on this is at best juvenile. Which is why I said what I think the offer should be. As for leap's made, you are doing this as well, as I pointed out, and I only wish you could see that this isn't about me, although I am flattered that you are so obsessed that you think it is, it isn't...You'd do better to stick to the topic, instead of constantly trying to lecture me as if you could.

You actually linked two different points and suggest they are the same. The first one is that you don't seem to clearly that republicans did what you accuse Obama Olof doing. The second one is that you don't have all he information, yet leap to a conclusion.

As for your final effort, Obama's efforts are no more juvenile than Boehner's and republicans. I don't know why you think pointing out the flaw in what you're doing is lecturing you, but to address the issue, anyone who addresses it, must begin with the flaw before them. What is going on is negotiation. Both have to appear strong and firm, leveraging whatever they can use. Both will likely have to give in. But they will try to make it seem that the other is to blame for whatever happens. Seeing this doesn't requiring calling any if them names.
 
My bad, these threads move pretty fast. Harry was the poster with whom I was speaking.

To extend my response, I don't see any fix as long term and to be written in stone. I do see many options to extend all the social services further down the road so the changes are not draconian to any one generation. Some fixes are going to make both sides squeal but most of the squealing is for show toward their bases.
 
Ok, I see a reference to the OP Article. However I see no other "evidence" supporting your claim nor do I see an relation between the article and the statement you made about Reps. I have reviewed all your post in this thread and not, in a single post have you provided any intelligible or substantial support of our position. The best you have done so far is play semantics, contend that article did not provide enough information (I give you this, as I also found it incomplete, but I did find that it focused on just how much compromise was proposed on the issue that Reps were balking at, but not much on other issues) and other than that, give nothing but poorly referenced, unclear partisan statements, apparently unfounded since you, so far, have failed to support them.

I see a lot of "you should know", everyone knows, etc. but not a thing telling me what you know that you think everyone knows. And yes, I have been paying attention. The Reps have offered up some compromises even before the election. They tried to protect tax hikes, but that is only on objective. And recently they have gone from no tax hikes, to tax reform to ok, higher taxes on those making more than a million. Where are the compromises from Obama and the Dems?

What I get from the OP article.

Cut $600 billion over 10 years, $350 billion of which is Medicare, when he/Dems ran up a deficit of $1.3 trillion last year and $1.6 Trillion the year before that, so in two years, he has overspent a bit short of an annual budget, then plans to balance that out by not spending 20% of that amount over 10 years. BS, they need to cut over $600 Billion in this fiscal year, not spread out over 10 years. I call this BS because in two years, the House comes up for re-election and he cannot even promise today what he can get that congress to agree to and in 4 years, he is gone and the House is re-elected again. There is no way he can promise those cuts will be made any further than two years from now. And how many of those "cuts" are actually just promises not to spend projected growth and how many are really cuts?

Is anyone else confuse on how $600 Trillion in 10 years is supposed to pay back over 4 Trillion in the last 4 years? At his current average, his entire proposed cuts won't even cut in half current deficits if it were cut in 1 year. Exactly how much revenue is his tax hikes supposed to bring in, assuming of course all the rich people don't just loophole out of it, since, at least not mentioned in this article, he is not interested in actually reforming the tax code to stop it? This last is based upon the fact that he previously rejected a proposal to reform the code.

Even as he promises in one breath to cut $600 billion over ten years, he asks for an extra $200 billion for this year.

At this point, Boehner and the republicans should draw up a balanced budget with all the cuts they want, publicly publish all the details and then let Obama take us over the cliff. If all the compromising done so far is not enough for Obama, then to hell with him and the republicans should go back to their original stance.

As to the Bush "false referendum", I am still not clear on what you are trying to say about it, why it was false, or for that matter, what the hell it has to do with the discussion of this thread.

You seem lost.

The point was republicans have over years also played my way or the highway. This requires not looking at the article, but the posters words in op. then measuring his words and mine against history.
 
Ok, I see a reference to the OP Article. However I see no other "evidence" supporting your claim nor do I see an relation between the article and the statement you made about Reps. I have reviewed all your post in this thread and not, in a single post have you provided any intelligible or substantial support of our position. The best you have done so far is play semantics, contend that article did not provide enough information (I give you this, as I also found it incomplete, but I did find that it focused on just how much compromise was proposed on the issue that Reps were balking at, but not much on other issues) and other than that, give nothing but poorly referenced, unclear partisan statements, apparently unfounded since you, so far, have failed to support them.

I see a lot of "you should know", everyone knows, etc. but not a thing telling me what you know that you think everyone knows. And yes, I have been paying attention. The Reps have offered up some compromises even before the election. They tried to protect tax hikes, but that is only on objective. And recently they have gone from no tax hikes, to tax reform to ok, higher taxes on those making more than a million. Where are the compromises from Obama and the Dems?

What I get from the OP article.

Cut $600 billion over 10 years, $350 billion of which is Medicare, when he/Dems ran up a deficit of $1.3 trillion last year and $1.6 Trillion the year before that, so in two years, he has overspent a bit short of an annual budget, then plans to balance that out by not spending 20% of that amount over 10 years. BS, they need to cut over $600 Billion in this fiscal year, not spread out over 10 years. I call this BS because in two years, the House comes up for re-election and he cannot even promise today what he can get that congress to agree to and in 4 years, he is gone and the House is re-elected again. There is no way he can promise those cuts will be made any further than two years from now. And how many of those "cuts" are actually just promises not to spend projected growth and how many are really cuts?

Is anyone else confuse on how $600 Trillion in 10 years is supposed to pay back over 4 Trillion in the last 4 years? At his current average, his entire proposed cuts won't even cut in half current deficits if it were cut in 1 year. Exactly how much revenue is his tax hikes supposed to bring in, assuming of course all the rich people don't just loophole out of it, since, at least not mentioned in this article, he is not interested in actually reforming the tax code to stop it? This last is based upon the fact that he previously rejected a proposal to reform the code.

Even as he promises in one breath to cut $600 billion over ten years, he asks for an extra $200 billion for this year.

At this point, Boehner and the republicans should draw up a balanced budget with all the cuts they want, publicly publish all the details and then let Obama take us over the cliff. If all the compromising done so far is not enough for Obama, then to hell with him and the republicans should go back to their original stance.

As to the Bush "false referendum", I am still not clear on what you are trying to say about it, why it was false, or for that matter, what the hell it has to do with the discussion of this thread.

:applaud Outstanding post!
 
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