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Fox News contributor punched in face at pro-union protests in Michigan [W:867]

Are you seriously trying to argue that one cannot provoke a punch being thrown at them?

I believe hes arguing there is no justification for doing so legally in our society. I could be wrong.
 
The fact of the matter is that Chowder provoked the violence with malice and intent aforethought.
Wrong!

He went down there with every intention of instigating a violent reaction and he got one.
Wrong!

Apparently you do not know what facts are.
 
Im almost positive I could provoke you to try to punch me in the face. Im almost as certain you could not provoke me to do the same.

And I am positive that you would turn me over to the Thought Police if you could. However, this not the point. The point is that Chowder went down to a very legitimate protest against very insidious legislation, and deliberately antagonized the protesters, whom he knew to be rightfully livid about legislation which he and the neofascist propaganda machine he represents had deliberately misinformed the American people. Chowder willfully picked a fight so that the neofascists who employ him could portray the union supporters as violent and criminal, thereby attempting to turn public opinion against organized labor.

Understand that RTW is not a mere cognitive matter. It is an attack upon the protesters means of making a living and surviving in the world. And whether you recognize it or not, it is an issue which informed middle class citizens should be expected to fight against, physically, as it is a literal declaration of war against, not only organized labor, but the American Dream.

"Provoke" as a legal term is nonsensical. Legally, there is no provoking with words. Its either self defense or jail time. Its not dodging the question, it IS the question at hand. If you are civilized human being, you dont take a swing at someone because you dont like what they are saying---if not, you just proved you are a victim of your basest responses instead of a thinking, rational human being.

I am NOT interested in the legalities of the issue. The sort of civil unrest which RTW will manifest in the fullness of time will be entirely outside the bounds of civil and criminal law. Of this, you can be certain. There will be blood in the streets, just as there was during the formative years of organized labor; so get this through your head right now: a mere punch in the face to some ass-clown talking-head is nothing compared to what is sure to come in the not too distant future. I am not saying this prescriptively---that would be redundant considering what we already know about the history of organized labor in conflict with wealthy upper class plutocrats. However, I am saying it descriptively. In the fullness of time, Chowder, and all such mouthpieces for a neofascist plutocracy, will be inclined to say their prayers every time they start their car engine, or even step outside their own front door to pick up the mail. Labor unions are ultimately a street thing since the struggles entailed with obtaining a decent wage and decent working conditions are invariably taken to the streets when representative government merely represents the interests of an uber-wealthy upper class minority (as happens every time RTW legislation is passed).
 
Sorry double posted. Anyway, Crowder must be thrilled with all the publicity he's getting. I'm sure he's already out there brainstorming ideas for how he can play the role of victim again.
 
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You are dodging the question.

Assuming you are not from Mars and know a thing or two about human nature, do you think it is possible to provoke someone into punching you in the face?

I really dislike the Crowder guy from what I've seen and heard from him, but I think it's a bad idea to pursue this train of thought. The Westboro Baptist Church protests with the clear intention of provocation but I still wouldn't ever hit them. Same goes here. Crowder went to that rally to pick a fight and raise his profile, that's obviously true. But that's only another reason he isn't worth punching. It's not right, and it's not worth it.

Now another point:
The Newsbusters (I know, I know) article about the "unedited video released by the Crowder team

Can somebody explain this to me? How does the video in that link suggest anything new? The guy who threw the punch is never shown trying to take the tent down. The worst thing he does before the punch is put his sign in front of one of their cameras for a few seconds. And then the article claims that this "new" footage has extensive evidence of violence and assault but I couldn't find it. There were people apparently in the tent at some point and I have no reason to doubt that the union protestors were trying to take the tent down, but the only thing you see along that line is a guy who unhooks part of the tent from one of the poles holding it up. I just don't see any attempt made by anybody to objectively report what happened there by interviewing people from both sides and finding other footage shot that day. Why hasn't that happened? Wouldn't that clear things up?

Oh, and that link says that the video I'm talking about was newly released unedited footage, but it is actually an extended version of the first video using two of their cameras. The "new, unedited" version is neither new or unedited. It's edited. And as much as I loathe the use of violence in any situation where it isn't necessary, the conclusion I still have about this whole thing is that they're all wrong and they're all being complete babies in the way they've conducted themselves.
 
And I am positive that you would turn me over to the Thought Police if you could. However, this not the point. The point is that Chowder went down to a very legitimate protest against very insidious legislation, and deliberately antagonized the protesters, whom he knew to be rightfully livid about legislation which he and the neofascist propaganda machine he represents had deliberately misinformed the American people. Chowder willfully picked a fight so that the neofascists who employ him could portray the union supporters as violent and criminal, thereby attempting to turn public opinion against organized labor.

Understand that RTW is not a mere cognitive matter. It is an attack upon the protesters means of making a living and surviving in the world. And whether you recognize it or not, it is an issue which informed middle class citizens should be expected to fight against, physically, as it is a literal declaration of war against, not only organized labor, but the American Dream.



I am NOT interested in the legalities of the issue. The sort of civil unrest which RTW will manifest in the fullness of time will be entirely outside the bounds of civil and criminal law. Of this, you can be certain. There will be blood in the streets, just as there was during the formative years of organized labor; so get this through your head right now: a mere punch in the face to some ass-clown talking-head is nothing compared to what is sure to come in the not too distant future. I am not saying this prescriptively---that would be redundant considering what we already know about the history of organized labor in conflict with wealthy upper class plutocrats. However, I am saying it descriptively. In the fullness of time, Chowder, and all such mouthpieces for a neofascist plutocracy, will be inclined to say their prayers every time they start their car engine, or even step outside their own front door to pick up the mail. Labor unions are ultimately a street thing since the struggles entailed with obtaining a decent wage and decent working conditions are invariably taken to the streets when representative government merely represents the interests of an uber-wealthy upper class minority (as happens every time RTW legislation is passed).

And people say Unions dont use thug tactics anymore. If this is the union mentality, you have already lost. Get ready, if you and the unions resort to those tactics, they will cease to exist as organizations in short order. It is indeed a different world from when unions were formed in this country. I dont think people will allow those things quite as readily as they accepted them before and during WW2.
 
And people say Unions dont use thug tactics anymore. If this is the union mentality, you have already lost. Get ready, if you and the unions resort to those tactics, they will cease to exist as organizations in short order. It is indeed a different world from when unions were formed in this country. I dont think people will allow those things quite as readily as they accepted them before and during WW2.

You don't get it. The nation is regressing socio-politically.

As the middle class begins to evaporate, and more and more Americans find themselves marginalized and impoverished, you are going to see violence and social unrest on an unprecedented scale.
 
You don't get it. The nation is regressing socio-politically.

As the middle class begins to evaporate, and more and more Americans find themselves marginalized and impoverished, you are going to see violence and social unrest on an unprecedented scale.

Something which has been said quite a lot since the great depression. Usually as a cover for extreme political behavior.
 
You don't get it. The nation is regressing socio-politically.

As the middle class begins to evaporate, and more and more Americans find themselves marginalized and impoverished, you are going to see violence and social unrest on an unprecedented scale.



There ya go just like we had right before the Unions were created. Employers wanted every one to be their lacky so they could get richer and richer...the employers hired THUGS to beat and kill workers who tried to organize others...today the rich employers still hire thugs only they are called conservative teaparty politicians and they are paid handsomely by the koch brother type of thugs.
 
Something which has been said quite a lot since the great depression. Usually as a cover for extreme political behavior.

Wrong it was a reality right before the unions started...to exact that extreme violent behavior people have to get the tipping point of what they can take...
 
There ya go just like we had right before the Unions were created. Employers wanted every one to be their lacky so they could get richer and richer...the employers hired THUGS to beat and kill workers who tried to organize others...today the rich employers still hire thugs only they are called conservative teaparty politicians and they are paid handsomely by the koch brother type of thugs.

Im lookin at the video, the thug appears to be the union guy....since Crowder didnt take a swing at him. The Koch's are different from Soros how again? Im still trying to get used to the fact that the far left likes to label and demonize all the opposition to them so they can rationalize any sort of behavior they choose. Its pathetic and transparent.
 
Im lookin at the video, the thug appears to be the union guy....since Crowder didnt take a swing at him. The Koch's are different from Soros how again? Im still trying to get used to the fact that the far left likes to label and demonize all the opposition to them so they can rationalize any sort of behavior they choose. Its pathetic and transparent.

Forget liberal conservative reporter ok...any reporter thats idiot enough as this clown was to run around getting in the face of a crowd of protesting working class man is an idiot. You can make ANYONE punch you if you annoy them enough once they are already riled up.
Id like to know why this guy was even allowed to be doing what he was doing...the Police should have backed him up.
 
Forget liberal conservative reporter ok...any reporter thats idiot enough as this clown was to run around getting in the face of a crowd of protesting working class man is an idiot. You can make ANYONE punch you if you annoy them enough once they are already riled up.
Id like to know why this guy was even allowed to be doing what he was doing...the Police should have backed him up.

Youre right, they should have shut the protest down if they were that close to violent behavior. Because Crowder was exercising his political rights. You and Sig seem to think the ends justifies the means and the right shouldnt have a voice without threat of violence. Thats wrong. In fact, we have entire volumes of law detailing why its wrong.
 
Youre right, they should have shut the protest down if they were that close to violent behavior. Because Crowder was exercising his political rights. You and Sig seem to think the ends justifies the means and the right shouldnt have a voice without threat of violence. Thats wrong. In fact, we have entire volumes of law detailing why its wrong.

Youre confused, the protesters were exercising their constitutional rights...crowder was a PAID reporter getting in their face to make himself look good and got hit...it was crowder the police should have removed.
 
Youre confused, the protesters were exercising their constitutional rights...crowder was a PAID reporter getting in their face to make himself look good and got hit...it was crowder the police should have removed.

Youre certainly welcome to your misinterpretation. But thats what it is. So Crowder isnt allowed to exercise his rights without being swung at? And you support that?
 
Something which has been said quite a lot since the great depression. Usually as a cover for extreme political behavior.

Actually, it has NOT been said "quite a lot" since the labor unions managed to obtain decent wages for their members, thereby jump starting the greatest economic surge in the history of the world, firmly establishing the consumer based Western economy and the middle class American dream, while saving America from a communist revolution during the Great Depression and then generating the economic muscle to ultimately win the Cold War.

What you don't know about organized labor is "quite a lot."
 
Actually, it has NOT been said "quite a lot" since the labor unions managed to obtain decent wages for their members, thereby jump starting the greatest economic surge in the history of the world, firmly establishing the consumer based Western economy and the middle class American dream, while saving America from a communist revolution during the Great Depression and then generating the economic muscle to ultimately win the Cold War.

What you don't know about organized labor is "quite a lot."

Except for one problem. We are in a consumer economy now, not a production economy. The union labor model just does not work anymore. It is now pull marketing and not push marketing. Labor has to respond to rapid retoolings and harsh product changes in a matter of weeks and months, not years. Organized labor not only slows this down, it stymies it at the gate. The only labor begins to work again is if it curbs its worst impulses (management too, when it comes down to it) and they work together to make better products and maintain a workforce that is efficient, profitable and a partner in effective production. Right now its entirely adversarial---which you seem to relish, but it gets nothing accomplished.

It was said repeatedly in the 20s and 30s, repeatedly in the 60s and 70s, repeatedly in the 80s, repeatedly in the 90s, and repeatedly since 2000. The only thing that has changed is the face of the movement saying it. What you are saying isnt JUST all about labor.
 
Except for one problem. We are in a consumer economy now, not a production economy. The union labor model just does not work anymore. It is now pull marketing and not push marketing. Labor has to respond to rapid retoolings and harsh product changes in a matter of weeks and months, not years. Organized labor not only slows this down, it stymies it at the gate. The only labor begins to work again is if it curbs its worst impulses (management too, when it comes down to it) and they work together to make better products and maintain a workforce that is efficient, profitable and a partner in effective production. Right now its entirely adversarial---which you seem to relish, but it gets nothing accomplished.

It was said repeatedly in the 20s and 30s, repeatedly in the 60s and 70s, repeatedly in the 80s, repeatedly in the 90s, and repeatedly since 2000. The only thing that has changed is the face of the movement saying it. What you are saying isnt JUST all about labor.

You make these claims about unions impeding progress and product changes, yet Germany where federal law requires that a manufacturers' labour unions be represented on large companies board of directors is second only to China in exporting high technology items.
 
When children don't get their cookies they throw a fit, swing their arms and hold their breath...

It's funny how these progressive union members act like 5-year-olds.... "Gimme a cookie or I'll knock your teeth out." Give them the cookie so their teeth rot out.
 
Except for one problem. We are in a consumer economy now, not a production economy.

I just said that! Did I not just say that the consumer based economy was a direct product of organized labor and collective bargaining? Now, ask yourself why this should be so.

The union labor model just does not work anymore. It is now pull marketing and not push marketing.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Here is a very basic lesson in marketing: When people cannot afford to buy things, all the marketing in the world, be it "push" or "pull" or "jump up and down" is utterly pointless.

Labor has to respond to rapid retoolings and harsh product changes in a matter of weeks and months, not years. Organized labor not only slows this down, it stymies it at the gate.

What in God's name are you blathering about here?

The only [way] labor begins to work again is if it curbs its worst impulses (management too, when it comes down to it) and they work together to make better products and maintain a workforce that is efficient, profitable and a partner in effective production. Right now its entirely adversarial---which you seem to relish, but it gets nothing accomplished.

I'm all in favor of cooperation between management and labor. Unfortunately, the real source of adversity is the stockholders, to whom management is ultimately beholden; and the stockholders simply want the highest return on their investment, even if it entails the most unconscionable exploitation of human labor imaginable (especially if they can somehow avoid hearing about it on the nightly news).
 
You make these claims about unions impeding progress and product changes, yet Germany where federal law requires that a manufacturers' labour unions be represented on large companies board of directors is second only to China in exporting high technology items.

The relationship between organized labor and management is a different paradigm from the one in the US. It is much more of a partnership and both sides bend. Here, because its so adversarial one side or the other seeks to crush, depending on who has the advantage.
 
I just said that! Did I not just say that the consumer based economy was a direct product of organized labor and collective bargaining? Now, ask yourself why this should be so.

The union based economy was a production economy. We are no longer a production economy. We are a consumer economy. We are no longer a push market in the US. We are a pull market. Shifting from one to the other is a factor of production efficiency outstripping the demand for products. As well as other factors like consumer knowledge and desire for specialized products. Consumers today are a 100 times more savvy than consumers in the 50s. They will not take any product. The product has to have a draw or be marketed to a specific market segment.



Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Here is a very basic lesson in marketing: When people cannot afford to buy things, all the marketing in the world, be it "push" or "pull" or "jump up and down" is utterly pointless.
Go look up push and pull marketing. Stop using subject ignorance as a platform for belligerence.

What in God's name are you blathering about here?

Unions are resistant to reorganizing processes without contractual agreement and concessions. This slows down retooling for product changes.



I'm all in favor of cooperation between management and labor. Unfortunately, the real source of adversity is the stockholders, to whom management is ultimately beholden; and the stockholders simply want the highest return on their investment, even if it entails the most unconscionable exploitation of human labor imaginable (especially if they can somehow avoid hearing about it on the nightly news).

Stockholders are correct to expect the highest return they can upon their investment. ITS THEIR MONEY.
Bolded is no longer possible in the US and stay within the law. There are a lot of legal advocates looking to make a buck if a business looks even a little shady in its employee treatment. Companies are leary of litigation, they avoid it whenever possible.
 
Stockholders are correct to expect the highest return they can upon their investment. ITS THEIR MONEY.

That is no excuse for exploiting human labor.

Bolded is no longer possible in the US and stay within the law. There are a lot of legal advocates looking to make a buck if a business looks even a little shady in its employee treatment. Companies are leary of litigation, they avoid it whenever possible.

Which explains why so many companies have moved their production facilities to countries where they can get away with it.



BTW: Learn how to use the quote tool. No one wants to read your annoying baby blue pastel fonts.
 
That is no excuse for exploiting human labor.


I just love this terminology...."exploit"....:roll: It is complete nonsense. When a person goes to take a job they are the ones "exploiting" their own labor for financial gain.

I wonder how many retirees you'd see eating dog food because you don't want them making any money on their investments.
 
I just love this terminology...."exploit"....:roll: It is complete nonsense. When a person goes to take a job...


 
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