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House votes: Michigan is going to become a 'right-to-work' state for all

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Neomalthusian

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House votes: Michigan is going to become a 'right-to-work' state for all – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/11/michigan-right-to-work-bill-passes-house_n_2278021.html

LANSING, Mich. — The Michigan Legislature gave final approval Tuesday to a bitterly contested right-to-work plan limiting the power of unions, a devastating and once unthinkable defeat for organized labor in a state considered a cradle of the movement.

Unswayed by Democrats' pleas and thousands of protesters inside and outside the state Capitol, the House approved two final bills, sending them on to Republican Gov. Rick Snyder. One dealt with public sector workers, the other with government employees. Both measures cleared the Senate last week.

Snyder is expected to sign them into law as early as Wednesday.

The measures would make Michigan the 24th state with right-to-work laws, which ban requirements that nonunion employees pay unions for negotiating contracts and other services. Supporters say they give workers more choice and boost economic growth, but critics say the real intent is to weaken organized labor by bleeding unions of money needed to bargain effectively with management.

"This is about freedom, fairness and equality," House Speaker Jase Bolger said. "These are basic American rights – rights that should unite us."
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Neomalthusian said:
House votes: Michigan is going to become a 'right-to-work' state for all – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

Michigan Right-To-Work Bill Approved By Republican-Dominated House
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Good. As a nation, we are now about half way there. It is rediculous to be forced to contribute to leftist political causes simply to get/keep employment, even if that means giving up your "union right" to drink and drug on your breaks from work. Obviously unions are strong believers in mantaining that workplace safety! Your right to be exposed to drinking and/or drugging coworkers is very important to the unions. Yes they can!
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Good. As a nation, we are now about half way there. It is rediculous to be forced to contribute to leftist political causes simply to get/keep employment, even if that means giving up your "union right" to drink and drug on your breaks from work. Obviously unions are strong believers in mantaining that workplace safety! Your right to be exposed to drinking and/or drugging coworkers is very important to the unions. Yes they can!
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Yeah, that's a real fair presentation of what unions do for people. :roll:

This one libertarian thinks businesses should have the right to refuse to hire or serve black people. So obviously you are fighting for that. Or that businesses shouldn't be required to do any product safety testing, resulting in lethal substances being sold as medicine. You're in support of that, right? Since we're doing this thing where we pick out one action by anyone who remotely fits a broad group and using that as a representation of what that group stands for.
 
Deuce said:
Yeah, that's a real fair presentation of what unions do for people. :roll:

This one libertarian thinks businesses should have the right to refuse to hire or serve black people. So obviously you are fighting for that. Or that businesses shouldn't be required to do any product safety testing, resulting in lethal substances being sold as medicine. You're in support of that, right? Since we're doing this thing where we pick out one action by anyone who remotely fits a broad group and using that as a representation of what that group stands for.
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That is but one recent example of "union rights" that defy common sense. Unions did not fight for the rights of minorities/women in the workplace, advocate safety testing of drugs or anything else in your dream list of good regulations "for all" - in fact, once union policy (e.g. 40 hour work weeks) becomes law "for all" then they must demand some other benefit to elevate their membership's "special rights". Unions, in case you have not noticed, are out for "special" benefits for only their members. Right to work laws take nothing away from unions (or their workers) except the "right" to create/require closed shop environments; i.e. eliminate the "join our club, pay our dues, support our causes or no job for you" right that they enjoyed in MI, until today.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is but one recent example of "union rights" that defy common sense. Unions did not fight for the rights of minorities/women in the workplace, advocate safety testing of drugs or anything else in your dream list of good regulations "for all" - in fact, once union policy (e.g. 40 hour work weeks) becomes law "for all" then they must demand some other benefit to elevate their membership's "special rights". Unions, in case you have not noticed, are out for "special" benefits for only their members. Right to work laws take nothing away from unions (or their workers) except the "right" to create/require closed shop environments; i.e. eliminate the "join our club, pay our dues, support our causes or no job for you" right that they enjoyed in MI, until today.
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If that was the point you were trying to make, why the red herring about drinking on the job?
 
Gov Snyder was against removing union rights in that state. The Republicans lost seats in the legislature and are a lame duck crew until January. Snyder just made it clear that he is a pawn. Someone yanked that bitches choke chain and he reversed himself and this was rammed through so fast no one was allowed to debate it. There's some hidden figures taking action in Michigan and this lame duck legislature and pawn of a governor are their tools. This organized and was rammed through far too quick to be otherwise.
 
Deuce said:
If that was the point you were trying to make, why the red herring about drinking on the job?
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Simply an example of the lenghts to which unions must now go to provide "special" rights for their members. The firing of drinking and drugging workers is justified, regardless of who they pay dues to, yet labor unions fight even that common sense "safety policy" simply because they can - look at their contract it happened during "off work time" so it is OK.
 
I will say this about this move... Republicans will pay a price in Michigan for this.
 
poweRob said:
There's some hidden figures taking action in Michigan and this lame duck legislature and pawn of a governor are their tools. This organized and was rammed through far too quick to be otherwise.
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I'm always game for a good conspiracy theory (and no I'm not being sarcastic). Let me know if you find any leads as to the identities of the hidden figures.

poweRob said:
I will say this about this move... Republicans will pay a price in Michigan for this.
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Michigan, considered a cradle of unionization, has struggled economically in epic, humiliating ways for decades now. Not to say I'm implying direct cause and effect, but the correlation is somewhat undeniable. So, "pay the price?" What has the state got to lose anymore, for chrisake?
 
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poweRob said:
Gov Snyder was against removing union rights in that state. The Republicans lost seats in the legislature and are a lame duck crew until January. Snyder just made it clear that he is a pawn. Someone yanked that bitches choke chain and he reversed himself and this was rammed through so fast no one was allowed to debate it. There's some hidden figures taking action in Michigan and this lame duck legislature and pawn of a governor are their tools. This organized and was rammed through far too quick to be otherwise.
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Sort of like PPACA was, and just in time too. Politics work that way sometimes. Timing is everything in politics.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Right to work laws take nothing away from unions (or their workers) except the "right" to create/require closed shop environments; i.e. eliminate the "join our club, pay our dues, support our causes or no job for you" right that they enjoyed in MI, until today.
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The only problem with that is the fact that the main power of most Unions is the fact that they are the sole voice for those employees.

For example.... In the past the company I work for has utilized Engineering staff as stand-ins for unionized field employees in case of a labor stoppage. When the contract comes due in May of 2013 that's not going to be able to be done anymore, because the Engineering staff are now all Union members with a co-terminous contract date. In fact, one of the best things we have now is the co-terminous dates in (I believe) all of the electric distribution contracts. That is going to force the company to come to the table, make a reasonable offer, and to hopefully get this deal done before we run the risk of a work stoppage. In the past it has always gone down to the wire because the company had a "backup plan". They don't have that option anymore.

Now, if this were a "Right-to-Work" state, the power of our bargaining unit would likely be reduced because there would be individuals who were "non-union" to do the work if we were forced to walk off the job. These people are somehow allowed to have their cake and eat it too. The company is forced to give them the Union wages, benefits, etc.... but they don't have to pay dues and are not subject to Union discipline. That's total crap so far as I'm concerned.
 
Tigger said:
The only problem with that is the fact that the main power of most Unions is the fact that they are the sole voice for those employees.

For example.... In the past the company I work for has utilized Engineering staff as stand-ins for unionized field employees in case of a labor stoppage. When the contract comes due in May of 2013 that's not going to be able to be done anymore, because the Engineering staff are now all Union members with a co-terminous contract date. In fact, one of the best things we have now is the co-terminous dates in (I believe) all of the electric distribution contracts. That is going to force the company to come to the table, make a reasonable offer, and to hopefully get this deal done before we run the risk of a work stoppage. In the past it has always gone down to the wire because the company had a "backup plan". They don't have that option anymore.

Now, if this were a "Right-to-Work" state, the power of our bargaining unit would likely be reduced because there would be individuals who were "non-union" to do the work if we were forced to walk off the job. These people are somehow allowed to have their cake and eat it too. The company is forced to give them the Union wages, benefits, etc.... but they don't have to pay dues and are not subject to Union discipline. That's total crap so far as I'm concerned.
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Given your stance on many other issues on this forum, I am amazed you are pro-union. But I guess I shouldn't be. When it suits us, principles be damned.

Union discipline? What union discipline? Doing something outside of their job classification because they can perhaps? Staying an extra ten minutes off the clock?
 
Neomalthusian said:
I'm always game for a good conspiracy theory (and no I'm not being sarcastic). Let me know if you find any leads as to the identities of the hidden figures.



Michigan, considered a cradle of unionization, has struggled economically in epic, humiliating ways for decades now. Not to say I'm implying direct cause and effect, but the correlation is somewhat undeniable. So, "pay the price?" What has the state got to lose anymore, for chrisake?
Click to expand...

Everything republican seems to go back to the Kochs. Just about everything republican or conservative(ish).

ALEC
CATO institute
Heritage Foundation
Tea Party funding
FreedomWorks
Americans for Prosperity
 
MaggieD said:
Given your stance on many other issues on this forum, I am amazed you are pro-union. But I guess I shouldn't be. When it suits us, principles be damned.

Union discipline? What union discipline? Doing something outside of their job classification because they can perhaps? Staying an extra ten minutes off the clock?
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Maggie, I am the Steward for the department I work for. I was involved in the movement that Unionized the entire Engineering group at this company. Not because I think the Union is some Utopia (it isn't); but because I've seen what this company will do to its non-union employees at the drop of a hat. I've now worked for this company as a contractor (5 years), non-union employee (3 years) and as a union employee (almost 4 years). Honestly, the four years as a Union employee have been the best of the bunch. Conservatism and unionization are not necesarrily enemies. They can be but they aren't always.

As for Union discipline; it does exist. Union members can be disciplined for failing to follow Union rules, actions against brothers or sisters in the Union, and a number of other reasons. At the extreme end this can lead to being expelled from the Union, which means losing your job.
 
Tigger said:
The only problem with that is the fact that the main power of most Unions is the fact that they are the sole voice for those employees.

For example.... In the past the company I work for has utilized Engineering staff as stand-ins for unionized field employees in case of a labor stoppage. When the contract comes due in May of 2013 that's not going to be able to be done anymore, because the Engineering staff are now all Union members with a co-terminous contract date. In fact, one of the best things we have now is the co-terminous dates in (I believe) all of the electric distribution contracts. That is going to force the company to come to the table, make a reasonable offer, and to hopefully get this deal done before we run the risk of a work stoppage. In the past it has always gone down to the wire because the company had a "backup plan". They don't have that option anymore.

Now, if this were a "Right-to-Work" state, the power of our bargaining unit would likely be reduced because there would be individuals who were "non-union" to do the work if we were forced to walk off the job. These people are somehow allowed to have their cake and eat it too. The company is forced to give them the Union wages, benefits, etc.... but they don't have to pay dues and are not subject to Union discipline. That's total crap so far as I'm concerned.
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You have it somewhat backwards. You make your demands before you go to work for the company, that is your right to honor the terms of employment offered or go look elsewhere. To come in, "organize" (take over) and then make demands, puts that company or entire industry (and all of its workers) in a tight spot - does it not? The state of MI is watching many of its neighboring states get new business investments, the associated employment opportunities and the taxes that they generate, so they wanted in on that "action" too. True that union power will likely be diminished, but that just might mean the difference between a job and no job for a current non-member (or potential memeber). "Just us" is not the same as "justice", they just sound alike. :)
 
poweRob said:
Everything republican seems to go back to the Kochs. Just about everything republican or conservative(ish).

ALEC
CATO institute
Heritage Foundation
Tea Party funding
FreedomWorks
Americans for Prosperity
Click to expand...

Good response.

In Michigan's case, unionization has either done the state no favors, or has failed miserably to save it from its miserable fate. Preserving it in its current state is probably akin to feeding an economic zombie. Kind of like the "living dead" phenomenon in venture capitalism. The state has had an exodus of taxpayers TO every state except OHIO. My wife and I are among them.

If this legislation causes initial economic adjustment pains and makes things worse initially, maybe it will have an opportunity to rebound later in a more prosperous way. It may sound reckless, but let the state and its people and its industries stand on their own. Stop propping up failure, and you may be surprised to see success start propping up again.
 
Blue_State said:
And get re-elected. It didn't work with the recall votes, it definitely isn't going to work anymore.
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Really? How well did the GOP do in Wisconsin this election? You know, the state where the GOP Veep candidate is from?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You have it somewhat backwards. You make your demands before you go to work for the company, that is your right to honor the terms of employment offered or go look elsewhere.
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How about when the company changes those terms of employment in the middle of your time there, with no means of appeal? What happens when the company suddenly decides that to make the profit margin they promised their investors they suddenly decide that 1400 employees need to be "let go", whether their jobs/skills are needed or not?

ttwtt78640 said:
To come in, "organize" (take over) and then make demands, puts that company or entire industry (and all of its workers) in a tight spot - does it not?
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Apparently you don't understand how the system works. The company is involved in the unionization process from the beginning. In our case, we simple decided to join the existing union which represents the operations personnel at this electric utility company. Again, the company was involved from the beginning of the process.

A lot of companies would find themselves in much less contentious relationships with their employees (union and non-union) by simply using a little bit of common sense and paying more attention to the morale and ideas of them.

ttwtt78640 said:
True that union power will likely be diminished, but that just might mean the difference between a job and no job for a current non-member (or potential memeber). "Just us" is not the same as "justice", they just sound alike. :)
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The problem is that in this economy, they're liable to find somene they can take advantage of, pay less than the job is really worth, not provide sufficient benefits to, etc... because these people are looking for any job that will take them. Down the road if/when the economy improves, these jobs are not going to improve with them because there is no requirement for them to do so. They'll remain lower paying, with less benefits, and often less safe working conditions, because the company doesn't have to do anything more.
 
poweRob said:
I will say this about this move... Republicans will pay a price in Michigan for this.
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The highest possible price I could see them having to pay is getting reelected and, thus, having to live in that state for another two years.

Seriously though, Michigan is an absolute mess. At this point they have no choice but to do anything they can to attract businesses to their state and this move COULD help to facilitate that. It certainly can't hurt.
 
what i wonder is this :

if "right to work" is so awesome for workers, why exempt the police and firefighters?
 
Neomalthusian said:
... The state has had an exodus of taxpayers TO every state except OHIO....
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It was actually Michigan's business tax that drove a lot small businesses out of the state.
It was based on the gross income of business a small business did instead of profits.
Under MBT, the general tax base has modified gross receipts taxed at 0.8 percent and the business income is taxes at 4.95 percent. Insurance companies are taxed at 1.25 percent on direct premiums and other financial institutions have a franchise tax at 0.235 percent on net capital.
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read more:
What is the Michigan Business Tax? | Joyces Tax Services
 
poweRob said:
Really? How well did the GOP do in Wisconsin this election? You know, the state where the GOP Veep candidate is from?
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The Wisconson Senate flipped back to Republicans, and in the House the Republicans won a large majority.
 
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