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State Laying Groundwork for Managed Bankruptcy in Detroit

Diogenes said:
Agreed that they won't go back to making Model T and Model A Fords, but an awful lot of vehicles are still made in this country. Over the last generation, those jobs have moved to right-to-work states in the south. In fact I read a few years ago that if you are into "Buy American" you should buy Honda or Toyota because they have more American content in them than the Big Three (which have a lot of Canadian labor in them). Those southern plants have been profitable because they pay as well as union jobs up north, but they don't have to comply with the union rules that are strangling the northern factories.
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The thing is they pay a good wage, and the area is cheap to live in and nice. The wage would not get you buy in a big city, but in the rural areas it does get you far. In the area that I am in you could live pretty well on full time minimum wage without debt. Unions should come around when the workers need to overcome something that an employer is not handling properly. However, most employers now have HR people who try to find problems before they arise. You don't need a permanent union and the only thing those unions did is drive wages up to the point where it was cheaper to go elsewhere, and waste money. Had they quit when they were ahead and got the benefits they originally formed the union for they might have done better. But people get greedy.

The dems better be aware, their future does not lie in the unions either. The only reason the dems are doing good right now is that their opponents are having a meltdown/collapse. They are still part of the problem. The only reasonj I support them is because they are easier to turn the way you want. They are not great, but they are also not republican fascists either.
 
Diogenes said:
Agreed that they won't go back to making Model T and Model A Fords, but an awful lot of vehicles are still made in this country. Over the last generation, those jobs have moved to right-to-work states in the south. In fact I read a few years ago that if you are into "Buy American" you should buy Honda or Toyota because they have more American content in them than the Big Three (which have a lot of Canadian labor in them). Those southern plants have been profitable because they pay as well as union jobs up north, but they don't have to comply with the union rules that are strangling the northern factories.
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besides which, Hondas and Toyotas, unlike most of the GM models, are well designed and reliable. That's the real difference, so what do unions have to do with that? Are unions designing vehicles now?
 
Dittohead not! said:
besides which, Hondas and Toyotas, unlike most of the GM models, are well designed and reliable. That's the real difference, so what do unions have to do with that? Are unions designing vehicles now?
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GM just couldn't compete with auto manufacturers who were turning out a better product for less money. Because of pensions, union laws against firing and streamlining production through technology, etc., GM had to cut corners in the quality of their product. They should never have been bailed out by Obama, a man with no business experience whatsoever, and obviously easily duped. It's also bad news for those remaining Americans who do pay taxes.

General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again - Forbes
 
Grant said:
GM just couldn't compete with auto manufacturers who were turning out a better product for less money. Because of pensions, union laws against firing and streamlining production through technology, etc., GM had to cut corners in the quality of their product. They should never have been bailed out by Obama, a man with no business experience whatsoever, and obviously easily duped. It's also bad news for those remaining Americans who do pay taxes.

General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again - Forbes
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That's partially correct. If you compare like models, you'll see that the GM models are actually about the same price if not cheaper. The problems are in the design primarily.

And no, they should never have been bailed out by the government. The feds owning a large part of
GM is the closest we've ever come to real life socialism, and it isn't working out so well.
 
Wiseone said:
GM's and other Detroit automaker's failures were in part due to union costs, however there were also several other problems that faced those companies and pretending it was all unions is just silly and obviously comes from the partisan attitude of many here.

After 101 years, why GM failed - DailyFinance

Seven reasons GM is headed to bankruptcy - USATODAY.com
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The right to work manufacturers seem to be doing all right and GM is failing again.

Perhaps they need Barrack Obama's hands on experience in running a multi-billion dollar international industry, all learned despite being very busy in organizing communities.
 
Grant said:
The right to work manufacturers seem to be doing all right and GM is failing again.

Perhaps they need Barrack Obama's hands on experience in running a multi-billion dollar international industry, all learned despite being very busy in organizing communities.
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If you're just going to focus on one issue you're volunteering to be ignorant
 
Wiseone said:
If you're just going to focus on one issue you're volunteering to be ignorant
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What issue would you prefer to focus on?

What others issues do you feel led to the collapse of a city that was once the envy of the world?
 
Grant said:
What issue would you prefer to focus on?

What others issues do you feel led to the collapse of a city that was once the envy of the world?
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Well we aren't talking about the city we were talking about GM, and I think you missed my point about issues. Its not a single issues that led to GM's downfall, its several, therefore I don't want to focus on a single issue which is why I posted those links.
 
Wiseone said:
Well we aren't talking about the city we were talking about GM, and I think you missed my point about issues. Its not a single issues that led to GM's downfall, its several, therefore I don't want to focus on a single issue which is why I posted those links.
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Yes, we were talking about GM but I'm no longer interested and have nothing more to add to what I said earlier.

I got your point, it's just that found it uninteresting and not worthwhile discussing.

The topic of the thread is Detroit, not GM.
 
Grant said:
Yes, we were talking about GM but I'm no longer interested and have nothing more to add to what I said earlier.

I got your point, it's just that found it uninteresting and not worthwhile discussing.

The topic of the thread is Detroit, not GM.
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Well the city failed in no small part because the auto companies failed, and why did they fail brings us back to what we are talking about.

Go on, I believe you were going to continue on how nothing else matters besides the unions.
 
Dittohead not! said:
besides which, Hondas and Toyotas, unlike most of the GM models, are well designed and reliable. That's the real difference, so what do unions have to do with that? Are unions designing vehicles now?
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At Government Motors, it's probably a combination of bureaucrats and unions. How else to explain something as silly as the Volt?
 
Wiseone said:
Well we aren't talking about the city we were talking about GM, and I think you missed my point about issues. Its not a single issues that led to GM's downfall, its several, therefore I don't want to focus on a single issue which is why I posted those links.
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I wish the left would take that approach when discussing climate change, instead of focusing solely on CO2. But for auto manufacturing, a simple comparison between union shops and non-union shops shows that the unions are at least a, if not the, major problem.
 
Wiseone said:
Well the city failed in no small part because the auto companies failed, and why did they fail brings us back to what we are talking about.

Go on, I believe you were going to continue on how nothing else matters besides the unions.
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The city failed because they thought the goose would go on laying golden eggs forever. They were wrong, and the city will have to adapt or die. it is unfortunate that Jerry Brown is probably not paying attention.
 
I was hoping for state laying groundwork... for universal healthcare when I saw this in the recent thread activity.
 
Diogenes said:
At Government Motors, it's probably a combination of bureaucrats and unions. How else to explain something as silly as the Volt?
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It wasn't the unions who designed and promoted the Volt.
 
CalGun said:
I live near Stockton, Ca one of the biggest current bankruptcies. It's a scam, the bankruptcy, to me. Nothing changes for the union contracts, the retirement benefits are protected 100%, and so the only losers are those who leant the city money for physical projects like water lines, sewer lines and " buildings" which can't even be taken in any sense. Why any person would buy a "muni" bond today is beyond me. Stockton granted any employee with 30 days service LIFE TIME health insurance. And they will get to keep it even after the BK. city councils ... Best thing a union boss can buy!
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Agreed. It is appalling how the people who push the debts up to ridiculous amounts never bear the cost of their actions, even in a bankruptcy. Also, people shouldn't be buying munis from these governments.
 
Here is a link to the employee benefits plan for the City of Stockton, CA. I don't see where it offers lifetime medical insurance to retirees, any retirees, and certainly not for workers who have only been employed for 30 days. maybe' I've missed it somewhere.

Or, maybe exaggerated stories are being told about how unions are exacting unrealistic benefits from employers.

Which could it be?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Here is a link to the employee benefits plan for the City of Stockton, CA. I don't see where it offers lifetime medical insurance to retirees, any retirees, and certainly not for workers who have only been employed for 30 days. maybe' I've missed it somewhere.

Or, maybe exaggerated stories are being told about how unions are exacting unrealistic benefits from employers.

Which could it be?
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Hey bro, I hate to rain on your parade here, but there is the very reality we face that public-sector unions (of which we-the-people are essentially the "employer") are putting tremendous fiscal burdens on cities across the nation. Several municipalities in this country are going through managed bankruptcy precisely because their public-sector unions are "exacting unrealistic benefits" from the taxpayer, and when the taxpayer money runs out they either beg the federal government (Obama's stimulus) or force the state gvmt to step in and save them.

Please read what I wrote, let it sink in, and try again with an informed, nuanced position that sits somewhat reasonably within the confines of reality.
 
StringBean said:
Hey bro, I hate to rain on your parade here, but there is the very reality we face that public-sector unions (of which we-the-people are essentially the "employer") are putting tremendous fiscal burdens on cities across the nation. Several municipalities in this country are going through managed bankruptcy precisely because their public-sector unions are "exacting unrealistic benefits" from the taxpayer, and when the taxpayer money runs out they either beg the federal government (Obama's stimulus) or force the state gvmt to step in and save them.

Please read what I wrote, let it sink in, and try again with an informed, nuanced position that sits somewhat reasonably within the confines of reality.
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The claim was:

Stockton granted any employee with 30 days service LIFE TIME health insurance. And they will get to keep it even after the BK. city councils ... Best thing a union boss can buy!
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which doesn't seem to be correct.

Now, the claim is more general, that municipalities are in financial trouble because "because their public-sector unions are "exacting unrealistic benefits" from the taxpayer," with no specifics to back up the conclusion at all.

If those unrealistic benefits don't include "lifetime health benefits", as claimed originally, just what do they include?
 
Diogenes said:
Not directly, but their elected representatives sure did.
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In third world countries government union leaders have more power than the politicians because they can shut down the country any time they want. Presidents just come and go. The Bureaucracy continues and grows, more rules and regulations continue to be made, and the people have little control over what's happening, or how their money will be spent.
 
Grant said:
In third world countries government union leaders have more power than the politicians because they can shut down the country any time they want. Presidents just come and go. The Bureaucracy continues and grows, more rules and regulations continue to be made, and the people have little control over what's happening, or how their money will be spent.
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Agreed. The reason that centralized planning in economics never works (e.g., Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Venezuela) is that the central powers are inherently much too conservative, and they focus their attention on preserving yesterday's jobs rather than producing tomorrow's products. They then quickly lose their export market, and start falling behind the rest of the world. Maybe you remember the Yugo and the East German Trabant (which got about the same oil mileage as it did gas mileage, both very poor). However constant failure of the socialist ideal in practice hasn't seemed to reduce the enthusiasm for it, except perhaps among those who have actually experienced it.
 
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